Trying to put together Home Theater Surround Sound...Onkyo 674? What do you think?

Seph145

Ok, this is my first foray into the home theater department and I'm not exactly sure how to go about putting a system together. I've been looking on a lot of sites but I'm still pretty confused when I read things like "pre-outs, two way/three way speakers, upconversions, optical cables, coaxil, preamp outputs, etc." About the only thing I've read so far that hasn't added to the confusion is that the speakers have to have the same wattage as the reciever is able to power. I was hoping I could throw myself on the mercy of anyone that's willing to help and hopefully figure out what I should buy to have a good surround sound home theater. The PS3 supposedly supports 7.1 uncompressed sound so maybe that's a good place to begin?

The best way to start I guess would be to list everything I have that'd I'd like to tie into it:

My TV is a Sony 1080p KDL40V2500 LCD. From what the manual says it can only accept a 1080p signal through the HDMI input so I know the reciever has to have that.

My PS3 which is currently connected to the TV with an HDMI cable

My X-BOX 360 which is connected using the HD Component cables that came with the system(Y P/B P/R)

My X-BOX which is just connected with the basic red, white, and yellow cables

My PS2 which is also connected with the basic red, white, and yellow cables

My computer which is connected using the analog RGB cable

A Dish Network satelite reciever

I don't have a designated DVD player hooked up to it all yet but I'd like the option to definately add one or possibly a Blu-Ray or HD-DVD player sometime in the future

Not sure really what else there might be but I can't think of anything else.


At first I was looking at the Onkyo 674 reciever but from several forums I've read it seems that may not be able to do everything I need(unable to pass a 1080p signal, inputs, able to handle 7.1 LPCM uncompressed, etc.)...For the reciever I'd like to stay around $500-$800 if I can and $110-$170 for the speakers, from what I've found subwoofers tend to cost a bit more so maybe around $170-$230? Of course if the options are close and a better one is a few bucks more I'd probably be willing to go the better one. The appropriate cables for the best sound/video?

I've been running in circles trying to put the pieces to the puzzle together but I'm lost. Is anyone willing to help?

dgt2n

I don't have much time, but I can try to get you pointed in the right direction.

1) As a general rule, most people don't pass their video through their receivers. This means that your receiver doesn't need HDMI connections. Just run the HDMI straight to the TV to handle the video, and run a separate optical or coaxial digital audio cable to the receiver to handle the sound, for each component.

2) I'd spend a little les on the receiver, and a little more on the speakers. If your total budget is around a grand for the speakers and subwoofer combined, I'd look at a package deal from HSU or Onix, or Polk (obviously) . Your selection of an Onkyo receiver is fine.

3) Upgrade your PS2 and XBox to at least S-Video.

4) Get an HD Dish receiver.

Seph145

dgt2n wrote:

I don't have much time, but I can try to get you pointed in the right direction.

1) As a general rule, most people don't pass their video through their receivers. This means that your receiver doesn't need HDMI connections. Just run the HDMI straight to the TV to handle the video, and run a separate optical or coaxial digital audio cable to the receiver to handle the sound, for each component.

2) I'd spend a little les on the receiver, and a little more on the speakers. If your total budget is around a grand for the speakers and subwoofer combined, I'd look at a package deal from HSU or Onix, or Polk (obviously) . Your selection of an Onkyo receiver is fine.

3) Upgrade your PS2 and XBox to at least S-Video.

4) Get an HD Dish receiver.

For #1 I had wondered if that would be a possibility so it's good to know it is. One of the reasons I was considering the HDMI is because the PS3 needs it to pass the 7.1 uncompressed sound and I just discovered the receiver has to have 1.3 HDMI's as well. The ability to upconvert input signals was another draw(I believe there were a few other things but I'd have to look back). The Sherwood R-872 coming out later this year will have 4 1.3 HDMI inputs with numerous audio types accepted so it should be "future proof"(at least for me) for some time. If it wasn't for all of that I more than likely would do exactly what you're suggesting. One question about optical and coaxil, is one superior over the other or are they the same quality just a different way to connect?

#2 I'll check out the Polks and see what they have. I'm still looking into how to decide how to choose the right speakers, so far all I know is that the wattage has to be equal to what the receiver is able to handle.

#3 Good idea.

#4 As funny as it sounds I watch extremely little regular TV on my larger screen, almost always have that for games and the 13 inch crt behind me for TV...how laughable is that? :rolleyes:

Thanks for the input I appreciate the help :cool:

Refefer

Welcome to the forums!

I'll get started in a hodgepodge sort of way by first addressing the Coaxial vs. Optical debate: Both send digital signals, but in different ways. Most people I've talked to seem to prefer Coaxial over Optical due to the sound being slightly warmer and less sterile than it's light-based brother, so take that as you will.

Pre-outs are a good thing to have for a couple of reasons. You've admitted to not knowing entirely what they are, so I'll walk you through the different components briefly.

Preamplifier: All a preamplifier does is allow multiple sources(Cd player, dvd player, Turn table, etc.) to be plugged into it and then lets you choose which source you wish to listen to and gives you control over the volume. It does NOT power any speakers at all. Think of it sort of as a traffic light: It can control which lanes get to move while stopping all the others.

Amplifier: The Amplifier is what powers your speakers. When you read anything concerning "Watts" or "Watts per channel", you are talking about an amplifier. No amplifier is built the same and each have their differences... but the specs we are concerned about mostly when trying to build a home theater is it's power, and how stable it is. Power is represented in Watts at a certain resistance (called “ohms”). For example, you will notice the Onkyo you mentioned is rated at 95 W per channel at 8 ohms. Going back to our traffic analogy, imagine a road. The lower the Ohms(or rather, the less resistance), the more lanes it has and more traffic can travel on it. Each amplifier can handle only so much traffic going through their system before it fails to work. Each speaker is rated at a certain ohm level as well, and you have to make sure that an amplifier is capable of handling the load or else you might seriously damage your amplifier and/or speakers. If an amplifier is rated at 4 ohms, that means it can drive 4 ohm speakers and anything higher (8 ohm, 16 ohm, etc.)... but odds are will have some serious trouble driving speakers rated at 2 ohms. The amplifier is also the biggest (after the source) contributer to the sonic quality of the sound... and that's where most of the money goes.

Receiver/Integrated: Anything labeled as this (for example, your Onkyo, and pretty much everything you can buy at bestbuy, Circuit City, etc.) basically contains a preamp and an amplifier in one box. The problem with this is, unless you go very high end, the amplifier section of the Receiver is only going to be able to drive 8 ohm speakers at a limited power, and the sound quality is going to be (for the most part) sub-par compared to a same priced component based system (A separate preamplifer and amplifier). The reason we want to have a “Pre-outs” section on the Receiver is because it allows us to use a separate amplifier instead of the one built into the Receiver. Basically, by hooking up our Receiver's Pre-Outs to an external amplifier, we can use whatever amplifer we want to power the speakers while using the Receiver as a preamplifer only. This is nice since it allows you to upgrade your sound quality by getting better, higher quality/power amplifiers without the Receiver becoming useless. It essentially gives you an upgrade path, if you choose to use it, and also gives you the flexibility of choosing whichever speakers you want including difficult ones to drive(such as the Lsi series which are 4 ohm speakers) because you can purchase a higher quality amplifier to drive them with (whereas you couldn't drive the Lsi's if you used the built-in amplifier on your receiver).

Now that I've (hopefully) cleared that up some for you, I would like to talk about Power ratings and speakers. I've already discussed the importance of making sure the resistance matches up. Next is power ratings: In general, you want to make sure your amplifier is capable of more power than your speakers. The reason for this is very simple: You want headroom. When you listen to a movie, you're hearing all sorts of sounds: the background music, the dialogue, etc... everything is going fine until you hear a huge explosion from a cannon in the movie! If you don't have dynamic headroom, that explosion is going to sound a lot less impressive since the amplifer won't have the power to do it.. You need to have the capability of powering everything that audio track from your dvd can throw at you if you want to be able to hear everything as it is supposed to sound. If your amplifier is at the exact same rating as your speakers are, you might miss somethings. Always best to have a little bit extra on reserve.

As for the TV, my favorite one is a 10” in my kitchen where I watch the news and other things wheras my bigger room is for movies and very little tv. Just how it works, I suppose

Seph145

Refefer wrote:

Welcome to the forums!

I'll get started in a hodgepodge sort of way by first addressing the Coaxial vs. Optical debate: Both send digital signals, but in different ways. Most people I've talked to seem to prefer Coaxial over Optical due to the sound being slightly warmer and less sterile than it's light-based brother, so take that as you will.

Pre-outs are a good thing to have for a couple of reasons. You've admitted to not knowing entirely what they are, so I'll walk you through the different components briefly.

Preamplifier: All a preamplifier does is allow multiple sources(Cd player, dvd player, Turn table, etc.) to be plugged into it and then lets you choose which source you wish to listen to and gives you control over the volume. It does NOT power any speakers at all. Think of it sort of as a traffic light: It can control which lanes get to move while stopping all the others.

Amplifier: The Amplifier is what powers your speakers. When you read anything concerning "Watts" or "Watts per channel", you are talking about an amplifier. No amplifier is built the same and each have their differences... but the specs we are concerned about mostly when trying to build a home theater is it's power, and how stable it is. Power is represented in Watts at a certain resistance (called “ohms”). For example, you will notice the Onkyo you mentioned is rated at 95 W per channel at 8 ohms. Going back to our traffic analogy, imagine a road. The lower the Ohms(or rather, the less resistance), the more lanes it has and more traffic can travel on it. Each amplifier can handle only so much traffic going through their system before it fails to work. Each speaker is rated at a certain ohm level as well, and you have to make sure that an amplifier is capable of handling the load or else you might seriously damage your amplifier and/or speakers. If an amplifier is rated at 4 ohms, that means it can drive 4 ohm speakers and anything higher (8 ohm, 16 ohm, etc.)... but odds are will have some serious trouble driving speakers rated at 2 ohms. The amplifier is also the biggest (after the source) contributer to the sonic quality of the sound... and that's where most of the money goes.

Receiver/Integrated: Anything labeled as this (for example, your Onkyo, and pretty much everything you can buy at bestbuy, Circuit City, etc.) basically contains a preamp and an amplifier in one box. The problem with this is, unless you go very high end, the amplifier section of the Receiver is only going to be able to drive 8 ohm speakers at a limited power, and the sound quality is going to be (for the most part) sub-par compared to a same priced component based system (A separate preamplifer and amplifier). The reason we want to have a “Pre-outs” section on the Receiver is because it allows us to use a separate amplifier instead of the one built into the Receiver. Basically, by hooking up our Receiver's Pre-Outs to an external amplifier, we can use whatever amplifer we want to power the speakers while using the Receiver as a preamplifer only. This is nice since it allows you to upgrade your sound quality by getting better, higher quality/power amplifiers without the Receiver becoming useless. It essentially gives you an upgrade path, if you choose to use it, and also gives you the flexibility of choosing whichever speakers you want including difficult ones to drive(such as the Lsi series which are 4 ohm speakers) because you can purchase a higher quality amplifier to drive them with (whereas you couldn't drive the Lsi's if you used the built-in amplifier on your receiver).

Now that I've (hopefully) cleared that up some for you, I would like to talk about Power ratings and speakers. I've already discussed the importance of making sure the resistance matches up. Next is power ratings: In general, you want to make sure your amplifier is capable of more power than your speakers. The reason for this is very simple: You want headroom. When you listen to a movie, you're hearing all sorts of sounds: the background music, the dialogue, etc... everything is going fine until you hear a huge explosion from a cannon in the movie! If you don't have dynamic headroom, that explosion is going to sound a lot less impressive since the amplifer won't have the power to do it.. You need to have the capability of powering everything that audio track from your dvd can throw at you if you want to be able to hear everything as it is supposed to sound. If your amplifier is at the exact same rating as your speakers are, you might miss somethings. Always best to have a little bit extra on reserve.

As for the TV, my favorite one is a 10” in my kitchen where I watch the news and other things wheras my bigger room is for movies and very little tv. Just how it works, I suppose

Wow, in depth and informative thank you very much. Just want to recap a bit to make sure I understood everything. When putting a system together if I understand correctly a preamplifier isn't absolutely necessary because the receiver can be used to switch between which device the audio should come from, but it makes switching easier.

An amplifier isn't necessary either because it's packaged in with the receiver but would still be a wise addition. Amplifiers are only able to drive what they are rated for and higher, never anything lower. By having a standalone unit for it's function I wouldn't be limited to whatever the speakers my receiver was able to handle.

When you say the amplifier should have more power than your speakers are you refering to the total power that's required to power all seven speakers or the amplifier power compared to a single speaker? Hoping that question doesn't sound as stupid as it does in my head as an example: the Polk SWA500 amplifier is able to produce 250W continuous power into 8ohms and 500W continuous power into 4ohms, the Polk CS2 Center Channel speaker is rated at 8ohm with a recommended amplifier power of 20-175 w/channel. So I take it that that amplifer would be fine with that speaker because it's able to supply each channel(at 8ohm) with 250 watts of power giving it room to spare, so all seven speakers with 8ohm ratings would work with that amplifier? Or would I have to allocate at the very least(and hopefully more) 175 watts for each channel for a total of 1225 Watts(for seven speakers) requiring a more powerful amplifier? A subwoofer's greater wattage need would also factor into this I take it?

While I have that in mind the subwoofer is basically a "speaker" that provides added bass but still plays by the same rules regular speakers go by?

So, when I've decided on everything I'll need: a receiver, an amplifier, seven speakers, and a subwoofer.

Hope that's not asking too much but what you've already provided has helped immensely. Thank you very much

dgt2n

Almost. You need a receiver, 7 speakers, and a subwoofer. Alternatively, you can replace the receiver with a processor and a 7-channel amplifier, then add 7 speakers and a subwoofer. The subwoofer is similar to the speakers, but has it's own internal amplification.

One nice way to upgrade slowly is to get a receiver with pre-outs, so that down the road you can add an amplifier (either 2-channel for just the fronts, or 7-channel, for all the speakers) and just let the AVR do the processing. THEN, even further down the road, you can keep the amplifier and replace the AVR with a nice processor.

Refefer

Seph145 wrote:

Wow, in depth and informative thank you very much. Just want to recap a bit to make sure I understood everything. When putting a system together if I understand correctly a preamplifier isn't absolutely necessary because the receiver can be used to switch between which device the audio should come from, but it makes switching easier.

An amplifier isn't necessary either because it's packaged in with the receiver but would still be a wise addition. Amplifiers are only able to drive what they are rated for and higher, never anything lower. By having a standalone unit for it's function I wouldn't be limited to whatever the speakers my receiver was able to handle.

When you say the amplifier should have more power than your speakers are you refering to the total power that's required to power all seven speakers or the amplifier power compared to a single speaker? Hoping that question doesn't sound as stupid as it does in my head as an example: the Polk SWA500 amplifier is able to produce 250W continuous power into 8ohms and 500W continuous power into 4ohms, the Polk CS2 Center Channel speaker is rated at 8ohm with a recommended amplifier power of 20-175 w/channel. So I take it that that amplifer would be fine with that speaker because it's able to supply each channel(at 8ohm) with 250 watts of power giving it room to spare, so all seven speakers with 8ohm ratings would work with that amplifier? Or would I have to allocate at the very least(and hopefully more) 175 watts for each channel for a total of 1225 Watts(for seven speakers) requiring a more powerful amplifier? A subwoofer's greater wattage need would also factor into this I take it?

While I have that in mind the subwoofer is basically a "speaker" that provides added bass but still plays by the same rules regular speakers go by?

So, when I've decided on everything I'll need: a receiver, an amplifier, seven speakers, and a subwoofer.

Hope that's not asking too much but what you've already provided has helped immensely. Thank you very much

Amplifiers are rated Per Channel. What that means is when Onkyo claims 95 watts into 8 ohms, it's saying that each individual 8 ohm speaker connected will receive 95 watts: the 95 watts is not shared across all the speakers.

As for the example you used with Polk SWA500, that particular amplifier only has outputs for two speakers, not seven. The manufacturer usually mentions the number of channels, but Polk for some reason didn't.

For example, check out adcom's(a good amplifier manufacturer) multichannel amplifier selection: http://www.adcom.com/prod/shopdisplayproducts.asp?hid=1&cid=43&sid=3

You will notice that the GFA-7605 Power Rating listed as: 125 watts x 5 channels into 8 ohms, which says that it can power 5 channels at 125 watts each into 8 ohms. That is the generic way of listing a power rating and most manufacturers abide by that convention.

However you are correct in saying that the Polk CS2 attached would work fine with the amplifier... and you are also correct in that all 8 ohm speakers would work well with it. However, it should also be mentioned that that is a subwoofer amplifier and would work best with subwoofers.



Subwoofers are a special type of speaker. In home theater, almost all of them have their own built-in amplifier since their energy needs are far greater than the typical speaker. It takes a lot of energy to create those deep rumbles that we all love. Since the subwoofer is powered by it's own amplifier, the preamp/receiver doesn't need to send it any power at all, only the signal that it wants to produce. If you look at a hometheater preamp/receiver, you'll find that almost every one of them provide an LFE output. LFE stands for Low Frequency Effects and all it does is delivers the unpowered signal to the subwoofer. I hope that makes sense.

What will you need? Since you are looking for a 7.1 surround sound option, you will need a bare minimum 7 speakers, a subwoofer (the ".1" in "7.1"), and a Receiver(remember, all receivers have a built in amplifier). If the speakers are 8 ohm, and the receiver's built in amplifier is powerful enough, that should be all you need. However, if the speakers you buy are of the 4 ohm variety and your receiver can't handle 4 ohms, you will need to purchase an external amplifier and hook it up to the "preamp outs" on the receiver.

Feel free to ask any other questions you might have. After all, we all started at square one when it came to audio.