Interesting read for people new to the hobby

simphiwes

Even some horrendously expensive CD players (Wadia, for example) use terribly cheap transports and DAC's all purchased from third party vendors that use the same components in CD players that cost in the hundreds instead of the thousands.

The difference? Almost exclusively cost and perception of "prestige". Hi-fi is prone to heaps of snake-oil selling, and nowhere is this more prevalent than in components and cabling.

A good single-disc CD player shouldn't cost you more than $300 (US). If it does, and you think you actually perceive a difference, then there's something wrong with your ears. When measuring the difference between the noise floors of CD, DVD-Audio and SACD, one audiophile magazine failed to point out that, though on a graph it appears as though there's a great magnitude of variance between the noise floor on a linear 16-bit PCM signal vs. a SACD 1-bit DSD (2.7MHz) signal, in actuality the degree of difference was well below the human threshold of perception.

I have a Sony DVP-C600D (5-disc CD/DVD/VCD changer) that ran me about $500 US back in 1998, it's about one step below the Sony ES series. I have it connected to a Sony ES recever I bought for $530 US. Works phenomenally.

Provided you use either the optical or coaxial (S/PDIF) output from the CD transport to the receiver, it doesn't matter what DAC you have in the CD transport. The DAC in the receiver matters, but there's a law of diminishing marginal return.

The more money you spend on a receiver, the less perceptible benefit there is to be derived from it.

Find a recording that has a good representation of various kinds of music... not just jazz. In principle, a system that works better for one kind of music is engineered very poorly, as its goal in design is the accurate reproduction of any signal it is fed... and this is primarily in regards to speakers. If a CD PLAYER seems to work better for one kind of music than another, then something's either terribly screwed up in your ears or in the CD player. There's absolutely no reason the difference in representation should be discernible, except for gross manufacturing incompetence.

Take that recording to a stereo shop... bring a friend with you for part of this experiment. If the sales person suggests a particular component (as they have with me)... First ask them to quantify why. If they cannot be specific in their quantitative comparison and they start bringing up abstract things like "Well, Denon focuses only on audio... Sony makes all kinds of things" (um, Sony probably spends more on audio R&D alone than Denon's entire operating budget... but nevermind... it doesn't answer your question)... If they cannot be more specific and quantitative, tell them "thanks but no" and proceed with the experiment yourself, because at this point it's clear you're dealing with an idiot.

Then, do a blind test... have your friend control the test so you can be sure there's no monkeying going on. Switch out a few receivers/amps, CD transports and speakers.... and see where you can and can't tell what combination sounds better. If your answers aren't at least 75 percent consistent (i.e. preferring the same system more than 3/4 of the time), then you shouldn't be nitpicking over the range of systems you're looking at... and move down to a lower price range and start comparing systems within that range as well as between that range and the next range up... until you find an EASILY DISCERNIBLE difference.

If you have to "squint" your ears to perceive a difference rather than discerning from a relaxed state, then it's not worth it. Struggling to hear a difference can result in false positives.

If the audio store guys suggest some higher-priced components over the ones you're looking at, then ask if they're willing to be blind-tested on that assertion... same conditions, they have to be able to pick their preferred system more than 75 percent of the time. If they outright refuse to participate, leave the store.

Beyond the technical issues, lie certain aesthetics... I mean, if you like a metal casing over a plastic one, or if you like shiny buttons or other bells and whistles, that's your deal... How much you're willing to spend on such things is entirely arbitrary and up to you. There's no point in seeking external validation in this arena unless external validation is what's driving your purchase... in which case it shouldn't matter how good or bad the CD player is. Then just buy the one that has a namebadge obscure enough, and a pricetag high enough, to impress your friends and be done with it.

BUYERS TIP: If you want to really test the store, ask them if they have any CD players with Ferric Oxide-galvanized interconnects. If they say "Um, let's take a look at the reference manual," it's definitely time to leave.

McLoki

I guess we don't have to ask your opinion on if cables make a difference....

Michael

simphiwes

If your ears can tell the difference and your pocket can handle it then buy.

VR3

This entire post...is pretty useless... IMO of course

simphiwes

in the end the the ultimate goal is to enjoy the music.

cfrizz

Please post a link to this article or tell us which magazine you read it in.

Thanks.

simphiwes

a forum on allaboutjazz.com, i will post the link just now

simphiwes

forums.allaboutjazz.com/archive/index.php/t-11996.html

Deadof_knight

Well you can go buy a Ferrari or you can go buy a kit car cobra and run away from the Ferrari. I follow your thinking somewhat however I can definetly hear the difference in a pioneer dvd and a Rega transport both using same outputs. So how do you get around what your ears hear cause it was a big difference. Dont get me wrong I dont like listening to the sales guy at all. I know the owner so I just bypass him all together but sometimes its fun to ask them questions .......... just to stump them ..its fun to have a sick sence of humor. Super high end equipent hasnt impressed me yet

steveinaz

The "bits is bits" argument, though logical, just doesn't hold up in the real world---at least for many people.

To ball-park quote someone else on this forum (smartest thing I ever heard) "you don't buy your wine based on it's ingredients alone do you?"

shack

The finished product is not just the sum of the individual pieces. Give someone a pound of potters clay and you end up with an ugly ashtray...another person will give you a work of art. It's the same with electronics...there is value to the the way it is "made" regardless of the cost of the parts.

F1nut

Worst advice you could ever offer people new to this hobby. Should have never been posted.

shack

F1nut wrote:

Worst advice you could ever offer people new to this hobby. Should have never been posted.

Just another "expert". How could we possibly survive in this hobby without them.

zombie boy 2000

You mean you don't agree with him guys?!? Screw me, I just sold all my gear and picked up this...
http://www.amazon.com/Fisher-Price-H6319-Nursery-Rhymes/dp/B000930CLA/sr=1-5/qid=1168446186/ref=sr_1_5/103-3220774-7143817?ie=UTF8&s=generic

Ricardo

$hit!! I need to go see if my neighbor will give me back my tube CDP......and I was so happy with the portability of the Discman...

TroyD

Ho-hum....

Another opinon offered as gospel.

Some of these folks REALLY need to consider taking up another hobby

BDT

Early B.

Like anything else, it is best to be an informed consumer when making purchases. This is particularly important in the audio world because it is so subjective. If you don't know what you're buying, you can get screwed. However, some folks with deep pockets aren't necessarily audiophiles, so price matters to them, not sound quality. Did they get screwed? Nope.

reeltrouble1

I truly appreciate your setting me straight. I have contacted a noted surgeon to have my ears repaired. I have though requested he use high quality cables on the operating equipment.

Thank you.

RT1

reeltrouble1

Believe it or not some folks are more sensitive to things like pitch, tempo, interval and rythym.

So which ones have screwed up ears? none of them, however, there brains are different and they should have some surgery to fix this.

RT1

zombie boy 2000

reeltrouble1 wrote:

I have though requested he use high quality cables on the operating equipment.
Thank you.
RT1

Now there you go again... can you really feel a difference when the equipment wired with "high quality cables" is used to drill a hole in your brain? If you can, then you must have some mystical, magical sensory perceptors or something, because I'm not buying it. Can you give me a graph or a chart?

reeltrouble1

If the sales guy pitch is between denon and sony you have already given away credibility for your arguements fundamental foundation.

RT1

reeltrouble1

I am proof, I always use high quality cables for my surgeries, well, all except one time, but I dont want to talk about that one!!!:eek:

RT1

zombie boy 2000

Not good enough... I want you to invent an entirely new branch of physics. None of this apples falling out of the tree and ****. Something real. Something I can put in the oven and bake. Serve it to the in-laws and even they will be able to taste the difference. Because if it isn't in binary code followed by bunch of squiggly lines, how can you expect it to sound even remotely good?

PolkThug

There's some good advice in there:

"Then, do a blind test... have your friend control the test so you can be sure there's no monkeying going on. Switch out a few receivers/amps, CD transports and speakers.... and see where you can and can't tell what combination sounds better."

In other words, listen for yourself, only your own opinion is what matters.

reeltrouble1

for the simple reason that it pases the "if I were up your azzzz you would know it" test, best physical science advice I can give, or someone might need.

So you give this first post of thread advice to someone who can decern differences through innate musical learning intelligence between sounds and they then get to live their life listening to lo-fi, you should be ashamed and the baliff should wack your peepee.

RT1

Toka78

PolkThug wrote:

There's some good advice in there:

"Then, do a blind test... have your friend control the test so you can be sure there's no monkeying going on. Switch out a few receivers/amps, CD transports and speakers.... and see where you can and can't tell what combination sounds better."

In other words, listen for yourself, only your own opinion is what matters.

Thats the best advice of all. And I find it endlessly hilarious when people who won't hesitate to wear the 'expert' hat jump all over people who do the same when offering a different opinion.

reeltrouble1

cochise, nobody here (experts) told anyone any such thing, the poster however quotes an article stating if you can hear a difference in a piece of gear costing over 300 bucks then something is wrong with your ears.

****.

RT1

zombie boy 2000

Toka78 wrote:

I find it endlessly hilarious

Really?!? What a coincidence, because I find it infinitely hilarious.

We must have went to the same school:D

read-alot

reeltrouble1 wrote:

cochise, nobody here (experts) told anyone any such thing, the poster however quotes an article stating if you can hear a difference in a piece of gear costing over 300 bucks then something is wrong with your ears.

****.

RT1

I agree.

He apparently hasn't listened to enough "pieces of gear" to make a statement like that.

Ricardo

just....


:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :eek: :cool:

Toka78

I was speaking in broader terms...as in, opinions are opinions, and the portion PolkThug quoted was all the advice anyone would really need.