tube vs solid state vs hybrid

sickicw

So can anyone tell me the difference between the tube, solid state, and hybrid amps. From what I can tell tubes usually double the power as the impedance is halved, and most solid state amps don’t do that. Also I have heard people describe tubes as “warm”. Ok, if tubes are “warm”, then what are solid state amps described as? I am looking for a “neutral” amp that doesn’t alter the signal but can double the power as the impedance is halved. Would a tube be a bad idea then? The only tubes I have heard are from a guitar amp (Marshall) and it’s hard to compare because it was in a live performance.

Here is what I am looking at ….

http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=VISP331

FYI, I am curtly using a Rockford Fosgate car amp for my lsi9s and a big five channel outlaw amp for my center and rears.

sickicw

OK, i just did some research on tubes, and i dont think that is the way i am going to go.....

Midnite Mick

Yeah, I was going to suggest a high current SS as I believe impedance dips are more of an issue for tubes. Somebody please correct me if I am wrong.

Mike

Ferres

Don't forget about the very efficient new D class amps. Lighter, less power hungry and runs cooler.

Early B.

If tubes are considered. "warm," then SS is "cold" in comparison.

Don't make purchasing decisions solely on the basis of power. Buy what sounds good.

FWIW, a 40 watt tube amp will power the hell out of your Lsi9's.

reeltrouble1

You don't need to worry if the watt power does not double when the impedance is halved, as long as it gets close say 200 to 350 or so, you are looking at a high current amplifier, check the ampre rating and the weight for indicators.

Tube watts and SS watts just don't equate to each other.

RT1

cfrizz

RT & Early, While he maybe should just consider the power aspect of it, should he be considering the volume he wants to achieve? If I have read enough about this I believe that going too loud with a tube amp can cause problems.

Could you clarify please? Thanks.

reeltrouble1

Cat,

I am not quite sure what you mean as the power supplied is directly related to gain increase with the volume control. The SPL he may want in terms of where the volume dial is moved to in a given room with a given set of speakers is always a consideration, as a general rule tube amps can play louder, as in 40w SS and 40w tube driving identical gear in a room will not clip at the same levels.

RT1

Early B.

cfrizz wrote:

RT & Early, While he maybe should just consider the power aspect of it, should he be considering the volume he wants to achieve? If I have read enough about this I believe that going too loud with a tube amp can cause problems.

Could you clarify please? Thanks.

Here's an example -- I had an Odyssey Stratos 150 wpc SS amp and a 60 wpc tube amp. IMO, they played equally loud, but the tube amp sounded much better at a higher volume because it did not distort like typical SS amps do. Besides watts, there are other considerations for loudness such as room size, speaker sensitivity, 4 ohm or 8 ohm, headroom, etc.

So in a nutshell, watts don't mean squat. I always advise people to buy what sounds good, 'cause we don't hear watts, we hear music.

mhardy6647

Well... tube amps use vacuum tubes for voltage and current (power) amplification. Solid state amps use some sort of semiconductors (transistors and/or large-scale integrated circuits) as the active components for amplification. Hybrids use a combination of the two flavors of active devices: typically (but not always) vacuum tubes for the voltage amplifier (i.e., "preamp" or driver sections) and solid state devices for power (output) amplification. The vintage McIntosh MC230 hybrid integrated amp is a non-example, using a solid state preamp section and vacuum tube outputs.

Beyond that, it's actually hard/misleading to generalize. Generally, since vacuum tubes are high-impedance devices, an impedance matching (output) transformer is placed between the active output devices (tubes) and the load (speakers). The damping factor of tube amplifiers is generally low. Solid state amps generally are very low output impedance (high damping factor) and generally operate without any impedance matching transformers or DC filters (e.g., capacitors) between input and output. There are non-examples on both sides: OTL (output transfomerless) tube amps and SS amps with output "transformers" (e.g., many McIntosh amps -- which actually use an autoformer for the outputs). There are good and bad points to both OTL and transformer-coupled designs with either type of amp! EDIT: in fairness, the low output impedance (and linearity) of, particularly solid state, amps is due to a hefty application of negative feedback: a ggreat idea in theory but a mixed blessing in practice. Most tube amps use (global) negative feedback, too, but not all.

Finally, the issue of sound. Tubes are fantastically linear devices "when used as directed". Transistors are profoundly non-linear devices (they are, essentially, switches). The spectrum of harmonic distortion produced by a "typical" tube amp is much more euphonious (pleasant sounding) than that produced by a solid state amp. This is why most rock guitarists to this day prefer tube amps; they exploit the euphonic distortion of overdriven tube amps to produce pleasant tones.

Also, tube amps tend to compress rather than "hard clip", relative to solid state amplifiers.

mhardy6647

A good tube primer for the true novice: "A Taste of Tubes":
http://www.anthemav.com/OldSitev1/pdf/taste.pdf

reeltrouble1

And just to generally confuse the issue futher, there are ss amps that do not use global feedback, operate in different classes and so on.

So see simple.:eek:

RT1

mhardy6647

I didn't mention amplifier classes as it's a red herring in this discussion :-) Perfectly possible to build tube or SS amps operating in class A, B, AB, (or Class C for that matter).

I don't doubt that there are SS amps without global negative feedback -- out of curiosity, can you give an example of one that aspired to "audiophile" status?

zombie boy 2000

I believe my Monarchy Audio SM-70 Pro would qualify, if I'm not mistaken...

edit: I reread your post. Thought you said "I doubt"....

However, I won't lay claim to it having "audiophile status"

sickicw

Ferres wrote:

Don't forget about the very efficient new D class amps. Lighter, less power hungry and runs cooler.

Yea, i have looked into this one....

http://www.rotel.com/products/specs/rb1091.htm

..I havent listented to it yet. might try to find a dealer sometime.

I really like the sound of my rockford fosgate car amp with my lsi 9s, but am just trying to see if there is some budget home audio amps that might sound just as good. If not i might be buying another car amp for my center and surround speakers. Maybe something like this....

http://www.rockfordfosgate.com/products/product_details.asp?cat_id=2&series_id=7&family_id=24&item_id=95249&locale=en_US&p_status=

...has anyone demoed any of the new rotel digital amps?

tonyb

Early B. wrote:

Here's an example -- I had an Odyssey Stratos 150 wpc SS amp and a 60 wpc tube amp. IMO, they played equally loud, but the tube amp sounded much better at a higher volume because it did not distort like typical SS amps do. Besides watts, there are other considerations for loudness such as room size, speaker sensitivity, 4 ohm or 8 ohm, headroom, etc.

So in a nutshell, watts don't mean squat. I always advise people to buy what sounds good, 'cause we don't hear watts, we hear music.

Early has it...let your ears be the judge.If you use your set-up for both music and HT then a digital amp won't blow you away on the musical side.You have an outlaw doing your center and rears so I take it you are looking at a 2-channel amp for better music listening.Plenty of options,and since you are looking at a hybrid from Vincent,also look at Butlers.Couldn't be happier with mine.If you like outlaw,go with a couple of their mono's for your fronts.See if any members live by you and I am most certain they will let you come by for a demo.Don't dwell so much on watts and dampening factors or impendence as you will drive yourself crazy sorting thrue all the specs.Only you can judge what sounds good in your room,to your ears.Audition some before you buy.And I encourage you again to look up fellow members,don't be shy,we are all full of outstanding personallities and charm.Well...most of us anyway!

reeltrouble1

sicki,

I dont know if your really interested in all the technical jargon, if so here are a couple sites with point/counter point views about amp designs. If you dont care for this end of things then skip on by without a second thought.

http://www.susan-parker.co.uk/zeus.htm

http://www.vn-amps.com.ar/zero_e.htm

The thing is there is more than one way to do things. Some folks just want to listen to the music and not think about all the internal workings of the equipment, for others the technical aspects of this hobby hold great joy.

So as the designer's do not agree on how to build the ultimate amp its unlikely anyone else will. As suggested by Early and Tony the advice of using your own ears to decide what you like and when to stop your search is really best. Yes, certain specification and design criteria can lend a hand in helping with your decision. But in the end no one but you can or should tell you what sounds best.

The fact is the vast majority of gear today sounds pretty good so try to be open minded when looking and enjoy the music most of all of course you are already out of the box on your setup so I suspect you already know this.

Edit: Mhardy, oops sorry forgot to answer you, well, how about this company www.balanced.com, zero global feedback amplifier design and of course one I am familiar with.

RT1

BlueMDPicker

sickicw wrote:

I am looking for a “neutral” amp that doesn’t alter the signal but can double the power as the impedance is halved.

Go listen to a PS Audio GCA-100 if there's a dealer near you.

Check the specs here: http://psaudio.com/products/gca_amplifier_specifications.asp

Ferres

sickicw wrote:

Yea, i have looked into this one....

http://www.rotel.com/products/specs/rb1091.htm

..I havent listented to it yet. might try to find a dealer sometime.

I really like the sound of my rockford fosgate car amp with my lsi 9s, but am just trying to see if there is some budget home audio amps that might sound just as good. If not i might be buying another car amp for my center and surround speakers. Maybe something like this....

http://www.rockfordfosgate.com/products/product_details.asp?cat_id=2&series_id=7&family_id=24&item_id=95249&locale=en_US&p_status=

...has anyone demoed any of the new rotel digital amps?

I have the RMB 1077 in bi-wired config. It replaced 2 parasound hca1200II functioning as monos as well as the 2200II for the center. I can tell you the detail is superb, clean sound. It does not play as loud as the 2 paras, maybe plus 1-2 dbs to reach their level of volume. I find the 1077 better over all.

Just be warned, out of the box, it really requires 2-3 days of break-in to get the bass out as well as a few dbs.

On a side note, it's size and weight is a plus.

Midnite Mick

If you are interested in that type of amplifier you may want to check some of the exodus amps over at DIYcable.com as well. They use the Ucd modules, are quite economical and are supposed to be very good as well. Designed by one of the elites in that field. email Kevin he is a good guy to deal with.....if you are interested of course.

Good luck,
Mike

mlhm5

There are always the V-Fets for a middle of the road. Hard to find, but worth the look. Early Sony and Yamaha.

The V-Fets
http://www.thevintageknob.org/VFET/VFET-main.html

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=003&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=130054297864&rd=1&rd=1