Graininess???

hearingimpared
hearingimpared Posts: 21,137
edited December 2006 in The Clubhouse
When I played music with a female singer, and particularly a female singing in the upper registers, I could hear a "graininess" with the SL3000 that was not present with the RD0198.

Here again I read graininess to describe a high frequency perception. I am familiar with a lot of subjective descriptions of reproduced music's sounds. Musical, harshness, boomy, digital glass breaking, tight, focused, dry, silky, tubey, well defined imaging, wide/deep soundstage etc etc etc. I have been able to label and identify these various sounds with these various descriptions throughout my audiophile career.

I can't for the life of me figure out what "graininess" sounds like.

Can your folks weigh in with your descriptions of graininess please. I am very interested in hearing these.

I have heard many describe Adcom amps as "grainy." Since I own a pair but have never fired them up, I'm also interested to see if I hear this same phenomena of "graininess."

Thanks,
Joe
Post edited by hearingimpared on
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  • Joey_V
    Joey_V Posts: 8,563
    edited December 2006
    Grain for me has a "shouty feel" or an "added fuzz around the focused image"... hard to explain in words, but easy to show when you're right here with me listening to my system.
    Magico M2, JL113v2x2, EMM, ARC Ref 10 Line, ARC Ref 10 Phono, VPIx2, Lyra Etna, Airtight Opus1, Boulder, AQ Wel&Wild, SRA Scuttle Rack, BlueSound+LPS, Thorens 124DD+124SPU, Sennheiser, Metaxas R2R
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  • PolkThug
    PolkThug Posts: 7,532
    edited December 2006
    A moderate texturing of reproduced sound. The sonic equivalent of grain in a photograph. Coarser than dry* but finer than gritty**.

    Appendix to the above:

    *dry 1) Describing the texture of reproduced sound: very fine-grained, chalky. 2) Describing an acoustical space: deficient in reverberation or having a very short reverberation time. 3) Describing bass quality: lean, overdamped.

    **gritty A harsh, coarse-grained texturing of reproduced sound. The continuum of energy seems to be composed of discrete, sharp-edged particles.

    Get it?
    Never Forget
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  • Joey_V
    Joey_V Posts: 8,563
    edited December 2006
    Love it... PT got it.
    Magico M2, JL113v2x2, EMM, ARC Ref 10 Line, ARC Ref 10 Phono, VPIx2, Lyra Etna, Airtight Opus1, Boulder, AQ Wel&Wild, SRA Scuttle Rack, BlueSound+LPS, Thorens 124DD+124SPU, Sennheiser, Metaxas R2R
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  • hearingimpared
    hearingimpared Posts: 21,137
    edited December 2006
    PolkThug wrote:
    A moderate texturing of reproduced sound. The sonic equivalent of grain in a photograph. Coarser than dry* but finer than gritty**.

    Appendix to the above:

    *dry 1) Describing the texture of reproduced sound: very fine-grained, chalky. 2) Describing an acoustical space: deficient in reverberation or having a very short reverberation time. 3) Describing bass quality: lean, overdamped.

    **gritty A harsh, coarse-grained texturing of reproduced sound. The continuum of energy seems to be composed of discrete, sharp-edged particles.

    Get it?

    The spoken word is awesome. . . great stuff you big Thug ya!
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  • steveinaz
    steveinaz Posts: 19,538
    edited December 2006
    yes, artificial texturing, or the smearing of a high frequency sound. Cymbals have a bell-like sound; not splashy/fuzzy.
    Source: Bluesound Node 2i - Preamp/DAC: Benchmark DAC2 DX - Amp: Parasound Halo A21 - Speakers: MartinLogan Motion 60XTi - Shop Rig: Yamaha A-S501 Integrated - Shop Spkrs: Elac Debut 2.0 B5.2
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  • hearingimpared
    hearingimpared Posts: 21,137
    edited December 2006
    steveinaz wrote:
    yes, artificial texturing, or the smearing of a high frequency sound. Cymbals have a bell-like sound; not splashy/fuzzy.

    Does graininess interfere with or stop the natural decay of let's say steel brushed cymbals? Or maybe tubular bells?
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  • hearingimpared
    hearingimpared Posts: 21,137
    edited December 2006
    Off topic but another couple of really great subjective descriptions of audio is:

    "low noise floor" and "came out of a BLACK backround." I can tell you when those are happening but can't describe them clearly except by using "dead quiet."
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  • Midnite Mick
    Midnite Mick Posts: 1,591
    edited December 2006
    I had a pioneer avr that I just could not stand because of the grainyness.

    Mike
    Modwright SWL 9.0 SE (6Sons Audio Thunderbird PC with Oyaide 004 terminations)
    Consonance cd120T
    Consonance Cyber 800 tube monoblocks (6Sons Audio Thunderbird PC's with Oyaide 004 terminations)
    Usher CP 6311

    Phillips Pronto TS1000 Universal Remote
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  • hearingimpared
    hearingimpared Posts: 21,137
    edited December 2006
    I've been hoping that the Musical Concepts upgrades on the Adcom 565s will smooth out that graininess that people talk about when referring to the Adcoms. I have an old Hafler amp that sounded good but kind of dry that I bought the Musical Concepts upgrades for and those upgrades made it sound very sweet. I still have that amp.
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  • Libertyc
    Libertyc Posts: 915
    edited December 2006
    grainyness = harsh
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  • hearingimpared
    hearingimpared Posts: 21,137
    edited December 2006
    Libertyc wrote:
    grainyness = harsh

    Are you sure Bill?, I've heard NAD amps matched with the DC Coupled portion of my Spectral preamp and I would describe it as harsh but I don't know based on the previous definitions if I would call it grainy.:confused:
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  • Libertyc
    Libertyc Posts: 915
    edited December 2006
    No not sure but to me, grainy is the opposite of smooth.
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  • Early B.
    Early B. Posts: 7,900
    edited December 2006
    Grainy is when the top end sizzles. There's no definition in cymbals, horns, etc., so it sounds like someone is rubbing medium grit sandpaper on the backside of your blue jeans. Eventually, you feel the pain when the sandpaper goes against the grain of your ****. And that's where the term originated.

    (Just thought I'd throw in a little audio trivia for y'all.)
    HT/2-channel Rig: Sony 50” LCD TV; Toshiba HD-A2 DVD player; Emotiva LMC-1 pre/pro; Rogue Audio M-120 monoblocks (modded); Placette RVC; Emotiva LPA-1 amp; Bada HD-22 tube CDP (modded); VMPS Tower II SE (fronts); DIY Clearwave Dynamic 4CC (center); Wharfedale Opus Tri-Surrounds (rear); and VMPS 215 sub

    "God grooves with tubes."
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  • hearingimpared
    hearingimpared Posts: 21,137
    edited December 2006
    Ha Ha ha. . . that does make sense. Don't tube lovers feel that all solid state equip. has a grainy side?
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  • PolkThug
    PolkThug Posts: 7,532
    edited December 2006
    hearingimpared wrote:
    Off topic but another couple of really great subjective descriptions of audio is:

    "low noise floor" and "came out of a BLACK backround." I can tell you when those are happening but can't describe them clearly except by using "dead quiet."

    Actually, "low noise floor" is the one you can actually measure. Did you know that before you even turn your gear on, your room already has a audible noise floor. And by audible, I mean that a microphone can pick it up (I know some people believe their ears can hear better than a mic, but if you come to my house I can show it).
    Never Forget
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  • hearingimpared
    hearingimpared Posts: 21,137
    edited December 2006
    PolkThug wrote:
    Actually, "low noise floor" is the one you can actually measure. Did you know that before you even turn your gear on, your room already has a audible noise floor. And by audible, I mean that a microphone can pick it up (I know some people believe their ears can hear better than a mic, but if you come to my house I can show it).

    I did not know that the "low noise floor" can refer to room noise. I thought it had more to do with a couple of things; something like the low hum that a transformer can make or how quiet an amplifier can be due to ultra clean AC power.

    I do know that room ambience is definetely pickedup better by a mic than our ears. I think this is mainly because we are accoustomed to hearing room ambience and pay no mind to it. But if you place a mic in the mix you are now focusing on what the mic is picking up and you tend to hear it more clearly. . . am I on the right track here???

    Heck I think that there are electrical wires running through the wall that are antenas for AC noice and motor noise just from appliances around the house and would imagine that that in itself would be audible.
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  • PolkThug
    PolkThug Posts: 7,532
    edited December 2006
    hearingimpared wrote:
    But if you place a mic in the mix you are now focusing on what the mic is picking up and you tend to hear it more clearly. . . am I on the right track here???

    Mics can be great tools to work in conjuction with our ears. Sometimes it will just confirm what you already figured out, and other times it will help aid in subwoofer placement, setting crossover points, etc. Dr. Spec got me hooked on real time analysis and it was a fun ride.
    Never Forget
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  • cambir
    cambir Posts: 1,045
    edited December 2006
    dirty high frequency
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  • markmarc
    markmarc Posts: 2,309
    edited December 2006
    grainy= the sound when a station is tuned in just off its ideal position. You hear white noise. Cymbals, flutes lack purity and distinction.
    Review Site_ (((AudioPursuit)))
    Founder/Publisher Affordable$$Audio 2006-13.
    Former Staff Member TONEAudio
    2 Ch. System
    Amplifiers: Parasound Halo P6 pre, Vista Audio i34, Peachtree amp500, Adcom GFP-565 GFA-535ii, 545ii, 555ii
    Digital: SimAudio HAD230 DAC, iMac 20in/Amarra,
    Speakers: Paradigm Performa F75, Magnepan .7, Totem Model 1's, ACI Emerald XL, Celestion Si Stands. Totem Dreamcatcher sub
    Analog: Technics SL-J2 w/Pickering 3000D, SimAudio LP5.3 phono pre
    Cable/Wires: Cardas, AudioArt, Shunyata Venom 3
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  • hearingimpared
    hearingimpared Posts: 21,137
    edited December 2006
    PolkThug wrote:
    Mics can be great tools to work in conjuction with our ears. Sometimes it will just confirm what you already figured out, and other times it will help aid in subwoofer placement, setting crossover points, etc. Dr. Spec got me hooked on real time analysis and it was a fun ride.

    Can you direct me to any websites that will educate me more on what you've written please?
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  • PolkThug
    PolkThug Posts: 7,532
    edited December 2006
    Do some googling on "setting crossover point RTA" and the like. (I'm blocked from most audio related sites at work)
    Never Forget
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  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,894
    edited December 2006
    Listen to a late-1970's Marantz or Technics receiver and you'll understand "grainy". Especially the latter.

    :-)
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  • hearingimpared
    hearingimpared Posts: 21,137
    edited December 2006
    mhardy6647 wrote:
    Listen to a late-1970's Marantz or Technics receiver and you'll understand "grainy". Especially the latter.

    :-)

    Sure can you get me one?
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  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,894
    edited December 2006
    Sure can you get me one?

    I'd be happy to lend you a Technics SA-303 or an SA-500 if you're really interested! In fact, if you're REALLY interested, the SA-500 might be looking for a new home...

    http://www.vintagetechnics.com/receivers/sa303.htm
    http://www.vintagetechnics.com/receivers/sa500.htm
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  • hearingimpared
    hearingimpared Posts: 21,137
    edited December 2006
    mhardy6647 wrote:
    I'd be happy to lend you a Technics SA-303 or an SA-500 if you're really interested! In fact, if you're REALLY interested, the SA-500 might be looking for a new home...

    http://www.vintagetechnics.com/receivers/sa303.htm
    http://www.vintagetechnics.com/receivers/sa500.htm


    I was just kidding, however, I do love vintage gear even if it is "grainy.":D
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  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,894
    edited December 2006
    mee too... must by I own a few Marantzes and Technicses :-)
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