Separates a must for 4ohm speakers

ivansfo

Hi all,

The switch has turned on for me again to look into upgrades. I currently have a Denon AVR 2805 and it drives my Polk R series very well. The new speakers I'm eyeing are Polk LSI or Vienna Acoustics. Both of which are 4 ohm speakers and I don't think my 2805 will be able to handle it.

So my question is are there any AVRs out there which can handle a 4 ohm load? I prefer to keep all the electronics in a small package because of space limitations. I have not see any AVRs out there rated to do drive 4 ohms.

And if I must go separates, which of the major brands would you say has sound characteristics of a Denon?

Thanks.

VR3

Receivers that do 4 ohms...

Rotel, Adcom, NAD, AMC, B&K, Outlaw Audio, AV123 (Emotiva/Onix)

Just to list a few...

ivansfo

Thanks for the quick comeback Sid. Those are all brands I associate with separates. I had no idea they made AVRs. This certainly does open up the opportunity to do a speaker upgrade given my limited space for electronics.

PolkWannabie

... Sunfire ...

Sami

My HK AVR7200 didn't have trouble with 7's and 9's, I haven't tried my 15's yet, and propably won't even try.

venomclan

A seperate amp will give you that much more effortless performance. Speakers dip below their ohms during certain peaks. 4 ohm speakers can can beneath 2 ohms. It is nice to have an amp that can drive them.

Think of it like putting a 6 cyl. engine in a Corvette. It will still drive nice and can get up to higher speeds, but the 8 cyl. will do it without breaking a sweat and keep it up there.
Venom

cfrizz

Your Denon has preouts so just get a separate 200wpc amplifier.

sickicw

cfrizz wrote:

Your Denon has preouts so just get a separate 200wpc amplifier.

I agree.

MSALLA

cfrizz wrote:

Your Denon has preouts so just get a separate 200wpc amplifier.

This is the way to go.

Ron Temple

ivansfo wrote:

Hi all,

The switch has turned on for me again to look into upgrades. I currently have a Denon AVR 2805 and it drives my Polk R series very well. The new speakers I'm eyeing are Polk LSI or Vienna Acoustics. Both of which are 4 ohm speakers and I don't think my 2805 will be able to handle it.

Hi Ivan,

I spent about an hour and a half listening to some Grand Mozarts in 2 channel and then the full 5.1 setup w/ ML Grotto at Magnolia using a Denon 3805. Nice speakers, they reminded me of LSis. Pretty too.

Anyway, I'd agree with the others...find some space for at least a 2 channel amp with some serious power. I just did and now I'm going through serious withdrawal while it's in the shop.

Good luck with the upgradeitus

ivansfo

Hi Ron & all,

Yep, the Grand Mozart is exactly what I got my eyes on. They sure sound nice and look pretty good. But even at 1/2 of retail, I don't think I could get myself to lay down that kind of money. Being a R series owner has sure skewed the way I look at valuing AV gear.

Space is limited for me because all my electronics must fit into a small compartment of a Sony TV stand (see picture of similar stand). And right besides the TV are my R50s. Right now I have the 3806, a VCR, and a DVD player and the space if full already. If I get an amp, the VCR will have to go.

Just this past Friday I picked up a Denon 3806 cheap so perhaps the need for separates could wait for the time being.

Now if someone would sell me their Mozarts cheap, this would be a very merry christmas for me.


Ivan

Ron Temple

ivansfo wrote:

Hi Ron & all,

Being a R series owner has sure skewed the way I look at valuing AV gear.


Ivan

Tell me about it...the phenomenal price I paid for the R50s influenced how I looked at every speaker I listened to. There were several that were better, but not $500 - $1500 better. I tried out the 8s and liked them alot, but the SDAs are everything I've been looking for. They are not space savers, but offer a huge soundstage, 3D imaging, detail and warmth. You might want to consider.

ivansfo

Ron, because of my setup, SDAs are out of the question. I have about 9.5" on each side of the TV. Notice how my R50s fit in there nicely right now. So anything new will have to fit in this space for the time being.

Thought about the LSi15 I have concerns on how the sound will be due to the side woofer firing directly into the walls. Thus the Vienna Acoustics Mozart Grands is what my heart really wants.

Congratulations on the SDAs. I know you've been toying with upgrades for a while and glad you found something you like.

danger boy

ivansfo wrote:

If I get an amp, the VCR will have to go. Ivan

is that a problem? I haven't used a VCR in about three years now. What do they do again?

Ron Temple

Wow, the first picture didn't explain your situation like the second. The cubby makes it pretty tight for any speaker solution. Well, you can try out the VAs for 30 days, then hate yourself, when you send them back . I've been there...

good luck.

Sami

Can't you move the mains out of there? I understand if there is WAF involved but you would improve the sound quite a lot by moving the mains out on the sides. Maybe nice looking bookshelves with wall mount arm if you don't want towers on the floor?

dipiazza

You should at least pull out the R50s enough so that they arent sitting those few inches deep into the cutout. Even if you get the edges a few inches out it would open the sound up alot.

I think you would be hardpressed to find a speaker thats much more narrow than an R50. I would stay away from powered towers, sub's firing around in there is NOT gonna sound good.

Good luck!

ivansfo

First picture was just something to show you the cabinet I got. Second picture is my actual setup. For a while I had RTi8s but they didn't work out too well for my taste.

I'll put out the R50s a few inches to see if it improves staging. But I can't pull them out because I rather like the clean look right now. Plus my daughter likes space in front of the TV for her toys! Need to keep everyone happy

Sami

ivansfo wrote:

I'll put out the R50s a few inches to see if it improves staging. But I can't pull them out because I rather like the clean look right now. Plus my daughter likes space in front of the TV for her toys! Need to keep everyone happy

LSi7's, or 9's, mount them on the wall with an flexible arm that allows you to play with direction. That would look clean.

ND13

Even though I recommend seperate amps, for 4 0r 8 ohms, H/K recievers have no problems handling the 4 ohm loads until you can afford to add seperate amps.

ivansfo

Just an update on this upgrade.

Instead of buying new LSi or VAs, I ended getting a set of 5 used Viennas Acoustics to replace my R series. The VAs are all 6 ohms and my Denon 3806 is doing a fair job of powering them. I still feel power is a little lacking so I'm going to get a 5 channel separate. Looking at used Parasounds or used Bryston if I can find one dirt cheap.

Thanks for all the advice. My old VCR will go once I find the amp :-)

tonyb

Not to be a stick in the mud,but,those VA's will sound like
crap if you stick them in that cubby hole.Just my .02

AndyGwis

Post a pic of the new speaks when you have a chance. Just curious, what model VAs did you get, and are they going in the cubby like the Rs were? Like others have mentioned, that's probably not optimal placement for such a fine looking and sounding speaker.

I'm sure you got a great deal on the speakers. Feel free to share where you found them and how much, if you like. . . you can PM me, it'll be our little secret.

Congrats! Now, find an amp to make them sing!
Andy

Ron Temple

Congrats on the VAs...I heard the GMs, matching center and wedged shaped surrounds (don't know the model) on a 3805 and they sounded sweet, but you really do need the amp...good luck.

Ron

ivansfo

For weeks I have been lusting after a pair of VA Mozart Grands but I just could not get a deal on them no matter how hard I tried. Even the last pair of Mozart Grands on Ebay sold for over $2000. This is way more than I want to spend considering I need more VAs to complete a 5 speaker setup. The week before Christmas I found a set of VAs on my local Craigslist. The package consist of a pair of Bachs (floor standers), a pair of Waltz (surrounds), and a Theatro (center). All in light cherry (except black center) and in good condition. The original owner bought these from Magnolia in 2004 and was kind enough to provide me the original sales invoice. I paid $1200 for the 5 speaker package. These are not the newer VA grand series that I really want but for the money and what I got, I'm pretty content for now.

The Polks R50s certainly worked better in my cubby holes because I think the vent port was in the front. With the VA Bachs, the vent port is on the rear just like the RTi8. So I definitely lost some fullness in sound due to bass getting trapped. However my intent of the upgrade was to improve the mids and highs which I think the VAs do a spectacular job on. Now I just need to tune the setup to best work in my environment. For the sake of testing I did pull them out of the holes and had them 7' apart and toed in. For music, there was s significant improvement and even movies too but to a lesser extent. Since I use the system for movies most of the time, they were moved back into the cubby hole. They will have to stay there unless we move to a new home or do any major room renovations.

When I auditioned these at the seller's home, the VAs sounded fantastic. Vocals and instruments sound live with great clarity. They sounded similar to the current VAs at the Magnolia stores. In both cases, the VAs were being powered by a Primare Amp. When I brought them home, they sound good....but not fantastic like I heard before. So I think having an amp is one piece of the puzzle which is missing here in order to bringing out the full potential of the VAs.

I should mention that after doing an A & B comparison with between my R50 setup and the VA setup at home, I once again confirmed that a setup based on the R50 is once heck of a system for the money. Sure....with the VAs I got better imaging, mids, highs, and transparency but my old R50 setup which sounds close only cost 1/3 of the price.

Pictures up later tonight.

ivansfo

Some PICs.....

sickicw

man, do youself a favor and go to realtraps.com and measure some acoustic panels to put in the rear of that cubby hole. The hole in the wall reminds me of a huge power port that will muddy up your bass. i would look into the mondo traps if you can fit a few behind the tv.

Ron Temple

I liked the GBachs nearly as much as the GMs. The cabinets looked the same, but the tweeters and drivers looked different. Anyway, very pretty speakers. I'm sure the dynamics will improve with proper amplification. I've got placement issues too, so I can sympathize, but it will definitely improve.

snow

perhaps consider listening to a pair of paradigm refrence 100s to put in that tight space. they are skinny but deep. and they are an 8ohm load and considering the price a bargian i feel. especially if you buy used. REGARDS SNOW