Carver amps - stable to 2 ohms

BlueMDPicker

I'm running the Carver Research Lightstar Reference amp (600w @4 ohms, 1200w @2 ohms) on the ESL panels of my Innersound Isis speakers, and a Nikko Alpha 230 (130w @4 ohms) on the transmission line woofers (horizontally bi-amped with Marchand active crossover.) The combination sounds very good, but the Nikko is running a bit hotter than it has in other applications.

The nominal impedance of the Isis, passive crossover, is 4 ohms. In active crossover operation, I suspect the panels are close to 2 ohms nominal and the woofers 6 ohm nominal. Theoretically, I should be running the lower output amp on the panels and the higher output amp on the LF. But, the Nikko can't handle anything below 4 ohms. So, eventually, I'll replace the Nikko with something that can handle <4 ohms and switch the amps around.

I know there are several of you who have had, or are using Carver amplification. Which Carvers can really handle a consistent 2 ohm load reliably?

Thanks!

reeltrouble1

Silver 9t mono--1000 @ 2ohm, they dont break any sweat at 4 ohms with the Amazings in the Shed which is 1232 cu. ft.

Having fun I see !!!!!!!!!!!!

RT1

audiobliss

reeltrouble1 wrote:

Silver 9t mono--1000 @ 2ohm, they dont break any sweat at 4 ohms with the Amazings in the Shed which is 1232 cu. ft.

Having fun I see !!!!!!!!!!!!

RT1

Aren't those also stable to 1ohm? They're beasts, for sure!!

TroyD

IIRC, the lightstar is basically the same design as the Sunfire, which are 2ohm stable.

The Silver 9t's/TFM-45/m4.0t....those all should do the trick nicely.


BDT

BlueMDPicker

Troy,

Yeah the Lightstar was the run-up to the Sunfire from what I've read. The Lightstar isn't at issue with the ESLs, it loves them and runs no harder than it did into the SRS. It has such great tone that I shudder at the thought of replacing it.

TroyD

So look for a used Sunfire, the 300wpc stereo models can be had 'reasonable'....

BDT

BlueMDPicker

Hooked-up, issue resolved. Gotta' love CP. There's more amplification changing hands here than side money at an alley crap shoot.

madmax

The Sunfires will play at 1-2 ohms with no problem. And for bass duty it would be a reasonable match with your Lightstar.

The Silver 9t would be perfect though. Added fidelity, built like a tank, reliability. I used one for awhile with 4 bass transducers wired series/parallel. Measurment wise they read at 4 ohms but I know they had huge impedence differences dynamically. I could turn the volume up and watch my home lighting dim. Those meters can bury themselves in the red with the amp showing no sign of stress.

madmax

Wardsweb

I run my Martin Logan CLS with a pair of Carver Silver 7t amps without any issue. Previously I have run them with a m1.5t (clip at will), TFM-35 (had to work a little to hard for my taste), A-500x (a lot better and stable to 2 ohms), A-760x (only bettered by the 7t and stable to 1 ohm).

BlueMDPicker

Thanks for the info, madmax and Wardsweb. I'm trying the A500X you had first, WW. But, I may purchase some Silver 9Ts as well for future neurotic adventures in audio.

DAGLJAM6

BlueMDPicker wrote:

There's more amplification changing hands here than side money at an alley crap shoot.

You said it brother! I'm warn out already:D

I-SIG

Bob McG ran bridged M1.0-t's to 1c's and 2.3's for years. I know not quite a true 2-ohm load, but about as close as you'll get without doing something funky.

Wes

RuSsMaN

Mike, get some man amps, pronto.

SCompRacer

The panels range from 112 to 2 Ohms, 500Hz to 20KHz. The Seas woofers in the Eros are 4 Ohms. Not sure if the Isis are the same.

Normanality

I had a nice long conversation with Roger Sanders last week.
He recommends that the woofers have a minimum of 200w into 4 ohms tho I'm sure your Niko is fine. It'll just run a bit warmer.
Of course, he was attempting to persuade me into real man amps like his ESL amp for the panel and the 600w into 4ohm bass amp

venomclan

reeltrouble1 wrote:

Silver 9t mono--1000 @ 2ohm, they dont break any sweat at 4 ohms with the Amazings in the Shed which is 1232 cu. ft.

Having fun I see !!!!!!!!!!!!

RT1

I know a guy locally that used to be into high end audio, but over the years, a marriage and multiple moves, he is no longer into and wants to sell me his Carver Silver 9T's. He said he bought them in the mid-90's and used them for about 6 months. What do you guys think of these amps? I may be able to get a nice deal. I have heard mixed reviews so far, powerful but not very musical.
What do you guys think they are worth today?
Thanks,
Venom

madmax

venomclan wrote:

I have heard mixed reviews so far, powerful but not very musical.
What do you guys think they are worth today?
Thanks,
Venom

$600 each is reasonable. Possibly a little more if they were really only used for 6 months. Musical? Depends on your reference. They are more musical than any of the other Carver or Sunfire stuff. If comparing to the upscale tube equipment, the high end MF gear or other very expensive class A amplifiers then you could claim them to be non-musical. What class do you choose.
madmax

BlueMDPicker

SCompRacer wrote:

The panels range from 112 to 2 Ohms, 500Hz to 20KHz. The Seas woofers in the Eros are 4 Ohms. Not sure if the Isis are the same.

The owner's manual doesn't list the model number of the woofers used, but indicates they are 4 ohm as well. I don't know where I made the assumption they may be 6 ohm--I think I was pulling the 2 ohm panels out of the equation i=(2+x)/2. I haven't had time to explore the guts of the enclosures yet.

Thanks for the info!

BlueMDPicker

Normanality wrote:

I had a nice long conversation with Roger Sanders last week.
He recommends that the woofers have a minimum of 200w into 4 ohms tho I'm sure your Niko is fine. It'll just run a bit warmer.

Bingo! Yeah, I made the assumption the woofers were 6 ohm. The Nikko has never run even warm @5-8 ohms.

Is there a pissing match between Roger and the new owner(s) of Innersound? Innersound changed their web site recently (last three weeks) and eliminated any information or reference regarding "legacy" products. IMO, these sort of moves really do a disservice to the audio community and potential resale. I've had the same disappointing experience with Dodd Audio.

BlueMDPicker

madmax wrote:

They are more musical than any of the other Carver or Sunfire stuff.

Wow, hard to imagine that from the hours I've had with the Lightstar Reference. The problem with running 9Ts in the vinyl rig with horizontal bi-amping through an active crossover would be the need for 4 of them, if they're true monoblocks.

BlueMDPicker

RuSsMaN wrote:

Mike, get some man amps, pronto.

I guess I'll have to wrap a poodle skirt around the rack and call it good.

madmax

BlueMDPicker wrote:

Wow, hard to imagine that from the hours I've had with the Lightstar Reference. The problem with running 9Ts in the vinyl rig with horizontal bi-amping through an active crossover would be the need for 4 of them, if they're true monoblocks.

No,no. The Lightstar was not mentioned for a reason. I did not intend to include it under the "Sunfire" group. I thought that was a seperate endeaver...
madmax

reeltrouble1

venom,

I find the 9t's to be musical in my rig, in Chuck's words "Everything depends on Everything". I would say between 12-15 hundred depending on use/condition.

RT1

Normanality

BlueMDPicker wrote:

Bingo! Yeah, I made the assumption the woofers were 6 ohm. The Nikko has never run even warm @5-8 ohms.

Is there a pissing match between Roger and the new owner(s) of Innersound? Innersound changed their web site recently (last three weeks) and eliminated any information or reference regarding "legacy" products. IMO, these sort of moves really do a disservice to the audio community and potential resale. I've had the same disappointing experience with Dodd Audio.

Actually, yes, big pissing match. There's some public posts regarding the situation that I won't repost. I'll be glad to pm you links. Bottom line, the original Innersound is no longer producing speakers, much less anything.
Roger Sanders, the original owner and design engineer of everything Innersound, has reimerged as www.sanderssoundsystems.com He is a delight to talk to and very willing to help out with all the original Innersound products.

Sounds like Carver doesn't it?

BlueMDPicker

Normanality wrote:

I'll be glad to pm you links. Bottom line, the original Innersound is no longer producing speakers, much less anything.
Roger Sanders, the original owner and design engineer of everything Innersound, has reimerged as www.sanderssoundsystems.com He is a delight to talk to and very willing to help out with all the original Innersound products.

Yes, please do PM the links. Thanks!

I've looked at Roger's new website. I believe you gave me the link a week or so ago. Hopefully, he'll put some specs and manuals (in PDF) online sometime in the future. Steve Rounds had the same assesment of him when we discussed my purchase of the Isis. Cool!

venomclan

madmax wrote:

$600 each is reasonable. Possibly a little more if they were really only used for 6 months. Musical? Depends on your reference. They are more musical than any of the other Carver or Sunfire stuff. If comparing to the upscale tube equipment, the high end MF gear or other very expensive class A amplifiers then you could claim them to be non-musical. What class do you choose.
madmax

Thanks Max and Reel,
There are a couple of reviews on audioreview.com that claim the 9t's are not musical. I too take this with a grain of salt. Musical is a subjective term. I use all SS amps with digital sources. I can usually relate "musical" to warmth. My Adcom is on the warm side, my Krell is more detailed. Outlaw=neutral.

I am going to see if I can demo these first before I make a decision. If I can get a good deal it may sway me. He told me to make him an offer for the pair. I will let you know if it pans out. Thank you for the input guys.
One last thing, do the Carvers have balanced inputs?
Venom

madmax

They have the standard RCA type inputs. They were going for $1299 each new in the early 90's. Thinking back on it I think I was low with the $600 each. I've actually seen some pretty crappy looking ones go for that. It is a plus if they have the acrylic or glass stands they came with also.
madmax

reeltrouble1

Yes a bit low MM, I was recently advised to list mine at 1500.00 as they are as near mint as a used piece can be and have the stands, a box and the manual.

If I were describe the carver sound in my rig in the ShedI would say just a shade to the warm side of neutral as you stated a demo in yours is the best way to tell.

I just had some warm/neutral gear up at the fest and in that lively room things sounded different than what I am accustomed to hearing with my stuff in the shed.

RT1

madmax

reeltrouble1 wrote:

Yes a bit low MM
RT1

I know, I know... I think they call it geezing. Actually, the $600 apiece ones I had in my mind were pretty darn rough looking, nothing but the amp and were quoted as "worked last time I used them".
madmax

SCompRacer

BlueMDPicker wrote:

The owner's manual doesn't list the model number of the woofers used..

They were custom made by Seas to Roger's specifications for the transmission line woofer system.

Roger suggested that the tube amps we are using might not be powerful enough for the woofers. That was based on him thinking we had huge listening rooms and listened at 95dB 20 feet away from the speakers like most serious audiophiles. I'll get my hands on a scope to see where we are at with the 22VRMS we have available while playing some demanding music.

His ESL amp white papers are an interesting read too. His panel amps are high voltage rather than high current.

SCompRacer

BlueMDPicker wrote:

Innersound changed their web site recently (last three weeks) and eliminated any information or reference regarding "legacy" products.

Mike, the link is gone but the pages are still there. http://www.innersound.net/transline.html

Might be a good idea to print everything in the event he takes them down.