Help! New wires causing amp to shut down or incorrect bi-wiring?

sidespin

Is this not bi-wiring? The 2 sets of wires ends in 1 set on the amp side.

For some reason, my Denon AVR just shuts down after 5-10 seconds while playing. This didn't happen when I used speaker wire to temporarily connect the 2 binding posts, while 1 set of speaker cable ran from the Denon to the speakers.

I am using new bi-wire I just received for my Polk Monitor 60's. I was using a 16-18 gauge wire before. Could it be the thicker gauge wire that is causing my amp to shut down now? These new wires are 12-gauge.

Any responses would be appreciated. I just bought new wires for my center and 2 front speakers. The center channel is a single wire upgrade. The 2 front speakers are in a bi-wire setup. Also, I did remove the brass jumpers.

sidespin

I just unplugged my Denon AVR and plugged it into the wall socket directly, and now it seems to work. I remember reading that the power source (receiver) should be plugged in separately from the other devices, ie - tv, cable box, DVD player. Is this correct?

I have a surge protector that currently houses my TV, cable box, DVD player, & Xbox. the S.P. & Denon are plugged into the same outlet though. This should be ok, I hope.

Separating the Denon seemed to have solved the protection mode. I wonder why the new gauge wires & bi-wiring caused this initially though. My guess is that the new wires "allow" the speaker to demand more power, so it's now trying to suck more power from my Denon. My Denon responds by going into protection mode. Is it the bi-wiring or the thicker gauge that causes this?

Also, does my receiver really get more power simply by just being in its own dedicated outlet? Would this be even better if I only plugged my amp in the wall socket and found a new home for the surge protector, or does this not matter?

amulford

Sounds like the amps were getting starved and shut down. If it's working again, don't mess with it.

hearingimpared

amulford wrote:

Sounds like the amps were getting starved and shut down. If it's working again, don't mess with it.

There is much higher current demand from your receiver when bi-wired (I just learned this from a bi-amping technical paper I just read). Higher current demand, equals, higher power demand from your receiver's power supply thus demanding more current from your power outlets. Putting it on it's own dedicated power line would be the best avenue.

If you get some time to spend reading, check out this link:

http://sound.westhost.com/bi-amp.htm

it is very infomative concerning bi-amping. I'm on my second reading of it.

Joe

hearingimpared

sidespin wrote:

Is this not bi-wiring? The 2 sets of wires ends in 1 set on the amp side.

I'm not sure if I am understanding you here. Bi-wiring??? Do you mean bi-amping? If that is what you are doing then the definition of bi-amping is using an amplifier to drive the low frequencies of your speaker system and a completely separate amplifier to drive the mid-high frequencies. Simply running two set of wires from the same amplifier to the low freq. posts and then another set of wires to the mid-high freq. posts is not doing anything but taxing your receivers amplifier section.
Joe

phono2

First, if the receiver was drawing too much current from the house wiring, wouldn't a house circuit breaker trip?

Second, you may have low impedance issues. IF you've disconnected the low and high frequency drivers from each other and are running them as two sets of speakers from one output on the receiver, then it's the same as running two sets of speakers in parallel. Two speakers in parallel means resultant impedance decreases: two 8 ohm speakers becomes one 4 ohm, etc., two 4 ohms 2 ohms, etc. It seems like many modern receivers can't work with low impedances, like 4 ohms. That's IF you've done it that way. I think there are a lot of alternatives.

Do the speakers have information on impedances of individual drivers. Better yet, is there advice on bi wiring?

What's the lowest impedance the Denon can work with?

Thicker wire will reduce total impedance, but only by a very small amount - especially if you're going from 16-18 gauge to 12 gauge.

hearingimpared

phono2 wrote:

First, if the receiver was drawing too much current from the house wiring, wouldn't a house circuit breaker trip?

Not necessarily. He had the receiver on a power strip with other components. The point to pluging it into its own outlet is to take the poor current draw problem, due to multiple draws, away by isolating it therefore delivering the proper amount of power to the amplifier section to properly drive the changing (dynamic) impedances of the speakers.

PolkThug

I've never heard of bi-wiring causing this. Sounds like the surge protector was a choke point or had a problem triggering the Denon's protection mode.

RuSsMaN

Yep, biwiring won't cause a receiver to shut down.

JKnPA

If your surge protector is plugged into the same wall receptacle(15amps) as your Denon receiver now; I would say your surge protector was the 'limiting factor' in this case as stated by 'Polkthug'.
Your receiver can only draw so much current due to the design of its power supply, so you are now receiving enough current to operate your receiver by by-passing the 'current limiting' surge protector!
The main purpose of by-wiring is to seperate the bass from the mid-high speaker circuits( drivers and Xovers). Some claim it 'sounds ' better, others say they hear 'no difference'...............
So I ask 'Sidespin'............... do you hear a difference ?

sidespin

Ok, gathering from what was said, the surge was limiting the current or "choking" the power supply, causing the Denon going into protect mode. What I'm trying to figure out is if the bi-wiring or the new gauge in wire itself affected this.

I just bought the Monitor 60's from a forum member. At first, I used 6 inch speaker wire to connect the 2 binding posts. I removed the brass jumpers for this of course. The speaker wire connecting the posts essentially replaced the brass jumpers. My setup was a single wire from the Denon to one set of terminals on the speaker.

Now, after receiving the new bi-wire cables and installing them I ran into the small problem.

The 2 things that changed from my setup were : wire gauge, & bi-wire

One of the 2 changes seemed to be the direct culprit. Granted, I should have had the Denon plugged directly into the wall by itself. But, aside from that I can't be sure which factor caused it.

Some of you said bi-wiring couldn't cause a receiver to shut down. But, then a thicker wire also wouldn't cause this as well. It has to be one of the 2 though. ??

JknPA, I do hear a difference, however, this could also be attributed to the Denon now having its own "isolated" power line. Seeing that the receiver now doesn't shut down, I must be getting additional power, which my speakers are showing in the music depth. The highs sound more airy, while the bass sounds stronger. The speakers just seem a tad more "juiced" now.

My surge protector is a $20 GE product that I bought at Target. I think I may upgrade that now, since my electronic gear is substantially better.

The Denon can run down to 6 ohms & pushes out (90 WPC @ 8 ohms) & (125 WPC @ 6 ohms). I've had the Monitor 60's speakers for 1 week. Before, I was running old Infinitys, then Polk R-30's. I've used my Denon AVR 1804 since 2 years ago. I've never had the receiver shutdown.

Anyone have an idea what caused the initial receiver shutdown?

JKnPA

Now, after receiving the new bi-wire cables and installing them I ran into the small problem.

The 2 things that changed from my setup were : wire gauge, & bi-wire
********************************************************
Sidespin,
The wires were not the problem!
You either mis-wired the speakers or receiver(short), or the receiver was limited by the 'surge surpressor.
*Retry the system with the 'surge surpressor'. If it fails again, I would conclude its the 'surge surpressor' and its load(accessories).

John

phono2

Well, it's probably not an impedance issue due to biwiring because you're merely replacing a parallel connector in back of the speakers with the same connection at the amp terminals when you biwire.

Nothing like being wrong in public to stimulate a desire for more knowledge about a subject, like biwiring.

A long shot: there's no short in the biwire cables, is there? Or, maybe there's a patch of inadequate insulation, so that you have a very low resistance pathway.

You could check easily enough with a multimeter.

sidespin

Bottom line is my receiver is now plugged directly into the wall, and it has solved the protection mode problem. I realize the surge protector was the limiting factor.

Here's another point, which I wonder about. On the bi-wire cables, 1 of the ends have 4 sets of terminations, 2 black & 2 red. Now, when they are wired to the speaker, I wasn't sure if the black & red must be matched in terms of pairs-wise. There were no markings which indicated which red wire and black wire were a "pair". Or does this not matter?

To illustrate crudely:


End A_______________End B

_____________________Blk 1
Blk___________________Red 1
Red__________________Blk 2
__________________Red 2


In End B, are Blk 1 & Red 1 a "set" pair? Or are they interchangeable, meaning can Blk 1 be with Red 2, vice versa?

JKnPA

Sidespin...........
As I posted earlier, you may have mis-wired the speakers!
You have to connect the correct pairs to the seperate drivers!
One pair(red/bk) go to mid/tweeters; the other pair go to the woofer..
If you have a multi-meter........ verify which leads are which, the wires may be switched inside the bundle, but I doubt it!

JK

PolkThug

sidespin wrote:

Or does this not matter?

It doesn't matter. Both reds are connected to the same point on the back of the receiver, and both blacks are connected to the same point on the back of the receiver.

sidespin

Wow, some conflicting opinions here. I'll take PolkThug's answer, as it makes the most sense. JKnPA, I don't think I miswired the speakers. I'm 95% sure I wired them correctly, considering there aren't too many alternatives to how I wired them. I don't have a multimeter. What does it do?

JKnPA

There is 'NO Conflict'................ you have to connect the wire pairs correctly! Each pair has a red & black wire. One pair goes to the upper speaker terminals, the other pair goes to the lower terminals.
Receiver........... both red wires go to the Red term., and both Black wires go to the black term.
Never connect wires unless you know what each wire is!

Skynut

JKnPA wrote:

Never connect wires unless you know what each wire is!

Serious advice and serious damage can occur if you are not careful.

What is your power conditioner?
most p/c's have a non current limiting outlet and this should work to protect your rcvr.

sidespin

I don't have a power conditioner. I'm thinking of getting one now, after seeing how my receiver was starved by my surge protector.

JKnPA, I still don't understand how you still say I might have wired it incorrectly. I feel like it's almost impossible to get wrong. Red wires go into red binding posts, while black wires go into black binding posts.

I have a total of 6 terminals, receiver (2) & speakers (4). I have 6 terminations on the wire.

This is a pic of how my bi-wire looks like. If you see my actual pic of the wire & speakers, is this not right?

JKnPA

If you connected red to red and black to black(wires-terminals)....... then that would be correct! I didn't see these wires(cable till now), so I couldn't say for sure.
Those wires appear to have 'shrink-tubing' covering the spliced wires,which I don't like because you really can't see the insulation color of the wires. This is why I said I would always use a meter to check the continuity of all the wires. I would never trust the vendor, they make mistakes too........... if they splice those wires wrong, you have a 'Short', which may blow your amp or speaker.
If you believe you connected them correctly to start........ then that's all that matters.
Enjoy your system!
JK

sidespin

Battlecruiser operational. All systems go!