Will LSi15 not image if underpowered?

jderdock

I realize that I am underpowering my LSi15's with the NAD C320BEE, but would a high current amp with more power drastically change the imaging? My cheap Epos speakers disappear and throw a big, defined soundstage with no fuss. I feel like I'm constantly trying to move my Polks around to get them in focus.

I posted this on AudioAsylum without much help.

thanks

izafar

I don’t think the NAD is the culprit here. Being underpowered would result in less dynamic sound and a weak bottom end, but it should have no impact on imaging on normal listening levels. Make sure you have wired the correctly (both speakers are connected in phase and right speaker is on the right side etc.). Also experiment with toe in.

jderdock

I have moved these speakers all around the room, against every wall, every distance apart with every amount of toe-in.

They are also definitely in phase (unless the speaker is wired wrong inside).

I pull these out and put the 300 dollar Epos in the same spot and they completely disappear. I don't understand it.

zombie boy 2000

How large are the Epos speaks?

wingnut4772

I had the same problem with my LSI 15s in my room. Placement was very difficult. You just have to try everything. I don't have that issue with my Von Schweikerts.

jderdock

zombie boy 2000 wrote:

How large are the Epos speaks?

They are the very small ELS 3's.



In this less than ideal room, the Epos completely disappear and have very precise imaging.

In my downstairs (more ideal), they do the same thing and the Polks have the same problem.

zombie boy 2000

I believe this might be a by-product of their size.. smaller speakers have a leg up on their bigger cousins in this respect. That is not to say that larger speakers can't image beautifully.... they can and often do. They just require a little more TLC in the placement department.

I can take my Arros and blindly chuck them into a room, upside down and facing in opposite directions, and they will still utterly disappear. This has everything to do with their slim and small design....

jderdock

i see. i guess my house is just too small for the Polks. I've messed around with their placement to the point of insanity.

Oh well. I guess I have an excuse for home theatre now

Joey_V

The room might be just a tad too small for the 15s. For one, I bet the Epos are a simple 2 way speaker... not too difficult to integrate both the tweeter and the woofer at that distance. However, the 15s are pretty much a 3.5 way speaker as it has 4 drivers that do pretty much their own thing.

Especially since the 15s are not aligned in the TIME DOMAIN as are hi-end speakers (ala VS VR4jr and Wilsons), they will need some room to breath and image properly. However, once they have sufficient room for the drivers to become coherent according to the listener's ear, the 15s are very good speakers.

Joey

jderdock

not what i wanted to hear, but it sounds about right. oh well!

jderdock

Zero wrote:

Second, the 320 Bee is actually not a good sonic match with the LSi series. It has a low damping factor, a warm and polite sound that cannot take much control over the drivers that you find in the LSi. The result is a very dis-orderly and almost unpleasant sound.

Dis-orderly is a good word. Confusing is another.

Zero wrote:

Epos makes very fine speakers that cannot quite lock a center image like the Polks can, but instead can fill up the space around you with great sound.

See, this is my problem. The Polks have a fuller sound to me, but have absolutely no imaging definition. The center image with the Epos is almost spooky holographic. There is a voice and you can make out all the instruments in space very clearly. This is what impresses me about them so much and it's what I'm missing in the Polks.

Zero wrote:

Also, given your small space (as suggested above) – a monitor/sub combination is going to be more suitable. A large tower like the 15 will over-load the room and quite honestly, your listening position is within too close of a proximity to really let the speaker do what it needs/wants to do. A small tower or bookshelf/sub combo is what I'd be looking at if this was the space I had to work with.

Good luck.

thanks!

I've considered the ELS 303 tower because I'm COMPLETELY happy with the ELS 3's for their price. I'd like to avoid a sub...i've never been a fan of them. Also, I'd hate to give up on the Polks. I was hoping for a "they just need more power" response, but it sounds like that's not the case.

Joey_V

More power can lock the image better... no doubt about that. However, I really dont know what your baseline is and I cannot fully say that more power will get you where you want to be at.

Joey

jderdock

yeah, i understand.

the NAD or Pioneer/Epos combo doesn't image AS well as the Jolida 502b/Dali Suite setup that I liked so much, but it still has a clearly defined soundstage. The Polks have a very blurry center image and the sound still "appears" to be coming from the speakers, not from a particular plane beyond the speakers (which the Epos do).

jderdock

Joey_V wrote:

However, I really dont know what your baseline is and I cannot fully say that more power will get you where you want to be at.

That's the hard part. I have no way of knowing if dropping in a big high current amp will solve the problem or not...and I don't have the means to try such experiments on a whim.

Sucks not having friends into audio

cfrizz

There are a ton of Polkies in MD, maybe you are close enough for one to come over with a suitable amp so the you can hear for yourself!

Give a shout out in the Clubhouse & see if you get any offers!

jderdock

That would be very interesting (and generous!)

madmax

I had the same problem with a very low powered tube amp and my SDA's. What I found happening was I kept trying to achieve too loud of a level for the power I had. (not that loud of a level). After I figured it out and got used to listening at lower levels I had a good soundstage. So what was happening was my soundstage fell apart whenever I pushed the amp too hard which was all the time.
madmax

BTW, where is Arnold MD, never heard of it.

jderdock

I actually find the opposite to be true in my setup. The Polk/NAD combo sounds better at a louder volume. It sounds dead at low volumes....but the imaging is incredibly poor at low and high volumes. The afformentioned phase issue sounds plausible.

Arnold MD: if you're heading East on Route 50 and you pass Annapolis, Arnold is the town in between Annapolis and the Chesapeake Bay Bridge. It's basically the more "country" suburb of Annapolis.

jderdock

So I got home and tried to check the phase of the woofers as someone suggested. I couldn't tell whether the woofers were going in or out, visually, so I abandoned that.

I've been running a Canare StarQuad bi-wire setup into the back of the Polks with the brass(?) jumpers removed. For kicks, I tried twisting the two ends of the StarQuad together to make a non bi-wire configuration and replaced the brass jumpers.

Maybe I'm crazy, but the image is more focused. The speakers don't disappear like the Epos, but it's definitely better. Maybe they'll never do disappearing acts....maybe they will with more power. I may never know

W WALDECKER

jderdock wrote:

That's the hard part. I have no way of knowing if dropping in a big high current amp will solve the problem or not...and I don't have the means to try such experiments on a whim.

Sucks not having friends into audio

You have friends that are into Audio right here at Club Polk. i live in Anne Arundel County in Pasadena Md which is really not very far from you. i have a pair of monoblocks that we could hook up to your system if you want to try the High current High power thing....WCW III

jderdock

ooo...the Odysseys? I've considered those, actually.

WCW?

Jockos

When I first got my LSI's they sounded horrible, almost dead. No imaging and weak anemic sound. I was running a yamaha reciever. I then purchased a Nad C370. The speakers sounded O.K. At this point I still thought my old RTA 11T's were much, much better. A couple of months ago I aquired some Adcom equipment. I had the GFA 555II(200 x 2 8ohms; 325 x 2 4ohms.) WOW! huge sound difference. The speakers came alive. The mids and highs are super clear; bass you can feel. Now my 11T's are clearly inferior speakers. So IMO a larger amp with better damping qualities will make a huge difference. Also till this day I still have a problem with rock steady imaging. I've tried different speaker positions. They are very sensitive to room placement. My right speaker still sounds louder then the left in placement I now have them in. Maybe try a bigger amp first. Just my 2 cents.

Jockos

jderdock

that's a valuable 2 cents! thanks!

madmax

W Waldecker is a good guy, really knows his stuff. Very much into audio. A bunch of us got together and went to a concert last year.
madmax

cmy330go

This sounds similar to an issue we had a few years ago with a pair of LSi9s at the store I used to work at. The speakers had a pretty full sound but virtually no image to speak of. Upon further examination one of my coworkers found a loose wire on one of the drivers. Once it was reconnected all was fine.

Just another thought. Even the great Polk Audio slips up now and then.:D