Tubes, pre-amps and more stuff that's probably been covered too many times before

michael_w

The upgrade bug is tickling me again and this time I'm thinking tubes. I've never really stepped into tubes with my own gear so I figure I need to get on it here. My question is, what kind of cash would I need to spend to find a substantial upgrade from what I own now? If I bought something along the lines of a Dodd elp or ASL wave line 1 pre-amp would it be a big step up or should I just hold out for something better like a sunfire classic pre. I'd like to set a budget, but in reality I'm not under any pressure to upgrade right away so holding off for a while and saving is definately an option. No need for a remote either - I sit half a foot away from my rack so a remote isn't really a necessity.

My current gear:

NAD C352 integrated amp
Polk LSi7's
Toshiba pos dvd player
Kimber Heros (dvd to pre)
Home Depot special 12awg with nanners
diy ascendant audio atlas 15 (ported and downfiring with a creative sound solutions plate amp)

Room is 8x13 with 8 foot ceilings. Main seat is about four or five feet away from the fronts.


I've been told that the weak spot is probably the preamp in the integrated amp so I figured a tube pre / ss amp combo would work quite nicely. I've gone the mid-fi cdp route and then came back to the dvd player (due to some unfortunate circumstances) and didn't really notice a huge difference. There was something there, but I think a new cdp will come after the pre.

I enjoy my system as-is but I figure trying some new gear would be a fun change and if I don't like it I can always flip it again (asuming I buy used).

Bah I tried to make this short but it looks like I messed that one up a little bit.

BlueMDPicker

If you enjoy the process, I'd highly recommend the Transcendent Grounded Grid preamp kit. World class pre on a budget.

http://transcendentsound.com/preamp%20kit.htm

halo

It all starts at the source (garbage in, garbage out). Try this: link It's like killing two birds with one stone (tube pre and source).

Early B.

Buy a Jolida tube integrated amp, upgrade the source, and you'll achieve sonic nirvana.

michael_w

I think I've seen that Transcendent audio pre before. It actually looks like a pretty fun project that I'll have to consider Have you ever listened to one before? I didn't really think about the diy side of things here (or kits*). I would need to find a nice soldering iron, but I think the guys at work could hook me up there and I could come in after-hours to work on it (some depts. in the company basically build electronics all day and have some kick **** soldering iron setups).

I owned a NAD C540 cd player before the toshiba. Yes, I did notice a difference and for what I paid for it (doro gave me a great deal) it was worth it but for anything close to msrp I wouldn't touch it. The improvement was subtle enough that it turned me off spending a ton of cash on a cdp for a little while -- well at least until I get some better gear all around.

I have thought about the jolida int amps but I think I want to step away from integrateds right now. I think by moving towards seperates I can put the money towards a good pre and still run the nad for it's amplifier section and then later I can get a nice amp instead of starting all over again. I'm looking forward to trying seperates for the first time to enjoy the flexability to easily upgrade any componnent and find a combo of componnents I truely enjoy.



Ooo this has me excited just thinking about throwing something new onto the rack

Thanks for the suggestions! Oh and if I land this new job I'll probably be ditching the ideas of these 'budget' preamps and moving onto something like classe or bryston :cool: (canadian companies so I can probably get a little cheaper than others)

BlueMDPicker

michael_w wrote:

I think I've seen that Transcendent audio pre before. It actually looks like a pretty fun project that I'll have to consider Have you ever listened to one before?

I've built one and enjoyed it for quite awhile, then passed it on to another forum member. It took a preamp with 4 times the MSRP of the kit to outclass it--but, not by much in SQ, more in features (remote, HT bypass, a few more outputs.)

It would be a great starter kit project. Two small boards to solder. The rest is hardware and component assembly. Less than 4 hours should have it operational for a rookie with a soldering iron.

organ

Zero wrote:

I noticed you use the LSi-7's. I would actually caution *against* using inexpensive tube electronics with this series. The LSi respond well to high powered transistors with high damping factors. Most Cary electronics for example, would be a pretty solid match.

I agree. Once you try to push the system to a moderate level, it may take a dump on you, especially with the LSi. None of my tube amps can properly power my LSi9 and that was the reason I had to look elsewhere.

The thing with tube amps is that they have extremely low damping factor, very little to no feedback on some units, low power output (unless you spend big$) and they hate driving capacitive loads.

If you plan to keep your LSi7, you're much better off with a tube pre and ss amp. Just about any budget pre amp will be better than the pre section of the NAD C352. I have the C160 pre amp which is the same as the pre section on the 352. Even the cheap entry level pre from ASL is better.

There are a lot of tube pre amps in the $500 price range. The choices are plenty. What you should concentrate on is the type of tube(s) being utilized in the circuit. Different families of tubes have different sound signatures.

michael_w

Argh I clicked a link and lost everything I just typed. Will try to sum it up quickly here.

zero,
Anyways, basically I don't see myself blowing that kind of cash on a pre just yet. I'm only 18 and have a long list of things I want to buy so three grand for audio gear (the cary slp-96 in particular) is a little steep, however, I might hold onto what I have for as long as possible all the while saving so that I can try to minimize these little steps between the low / mid-fi and the real gear.

organ,
I think you misunderstood me. My intentions were to go ss amplification and tubes for any other things (pre, jolida cdp maybe??). I've heard the pre section in the nad integrateds is pretty weak so this is why I'm focusing on it right now. Since I haven't really swapped out very much gear in my own system I can't actually say from experiance how good it is. Most of the gear I have listened to has been somewhere else (store, someones house, audio meet etc..) so the amount of variables in the equation just doesn't help me here.

blue,
It sounds like a fun and easy project. I have no problem soldering stuff to a circuit board. If you don't mind me asking, what did you get for it in the resell? I'm curious because I'm not sure how well a semi-diy item holds its value should I want to flip it for something different.


Thank you again for the suggestions!

Shizelbs

BlueMDPicker wrote:

If you enjoy the process, I'd highly recommend the Transcendent Grounded Grid preamp kit. World class pre on a budget.

http://transcendentsound.com/preamp%20kit.htm

Agreed. F Dodd. This is the better of the two.

ND13

You can usually find a Rogue Sixty-Six tubed pre, with remote and phono stage, for between $550-750(sometimes less without the phono and remote), if you're patient.

BlueMDPicker

michael_w wrote:

blue,
It sounds like a fun and easy project. I have no problem soldering stuff to a circuit board. If you don't mind me asking, what did you get for it in the resell? I'm curious because I'm not sure how well a semi-diy item holds its value should I want to flip it for something different.

Michael,

I don't recall exactly what I sold it for here. Had I sold it elsewhere, I would have asked at least kit price. In my experience with the Transcendent kits, they'll hold their kit price (or close to it) for several years if well built and well cared for. I've built four different kits from their line-up, had a ball doing it, enjoyed excellent performance, and recouped (at minimum) 85-95% kit price when I decided to sell. I sure wish I could claim the same track record with other, commercial gear!

Well designed kits are a marvelous way to increase your knowledge of what the circuit is doing, upgrade (caps, resistors, pots, switches, jacks, binding posts, etc) during construction at a modest price, and put together a system for a relatively modest price versus commercial gear (or, boutique gear for that matter.)

zero wrote:

I would heavily suggest starting off your tube adventure by going with more known pieces that are in high demand. Fine examples would be; Conrad Johnson, Dodd, Rogue, Antique Sound Labs, Cayin, Prima Luna, Eastern Electric and a whole host of others.

Sean,

All great suggestions. IMHO, however, the EE is outclassed by the Transcendent GG. Both use 12AU7 types (the EE with tube rectification, the GG with SS) and I've rolled scores of tubes through both.

michael_w

I'm glad to hear the kit sells used for close to what it would cost to build. I had it in my head to try a piece of gear that would suffer very minor depreciation should I decide to resell it and stick with what I have now or go a different route.

The patience is there, but I'm obviously tempted by it . I am, however, also worried about duties and taxes if I got the transcendant. I have bought about ten items from accross the border and been hit by large fees randomly on two or three of those items. One example is my lsi7 transaction. I received a bill about a month after I received the speakers for about 90% what I actually paid for the speakers. When everything was done about 40% of the cost of the total transaction was the base cost of the speakers. This concern applies to anything I buy from accross the border, so a great deal I might snag on audiogon could turn bad very quickly.

and while my words are not meant to discourage you from trying anything new – I am trying to hammer home the importance of patience.

I totally understand that and I appreciate the advice. I too have already felt that regret as to what route I should have taken (mine was jumping into HT instead of 2ch). The reason I made this thread to begin with was so that I can figure out what I'm getting myself into before I go and pull the trigger on some big piece.

I will look around some more, keep reading and make sure to venture into some true high end stores the next time I'm in downtown vancouver and of course keep an eye on the flea market

I guess I should also mention that the upgrade doesn't have to be tubed... I just figured it'd be a cool change to add something a little different.

Thank you again for the suggestions and well thought out pieces of advice to try and guide a youngin' such as myself. You guys are awesome for things like this... nowhere else could I get such good advice and direction.

dorokusai

The tube pre-amp idea is the solid choice. The source should reproduce the sound as accurately as possible, with zero signature. If I want to color the sound, it's done in the pre-amp stage, period. Amplification is simple as well, no need for ideas, just amplify the F'n signal. The pre-amp stage is where you will have the most fun.

SCompRacer

michael_w wrote:

I have bought about ten items from accross the border and been hit by large fees randomly on two or three of those items.

The International folks here tell me customs fees can be random. I've had a few shipments from McAlister Audio near Ontario to the US via FedEx Express. A couple of weeks after I got the first three shipments, I received zero cost customs invoices from FedEx via US Mail. Then I sent something back to him for warranty repair.

It was clearly marked "Warranty Repair Return" on the airbill, box and customs paperwork. Canada Customs hit me with $137 in fees and taxes. It was charged directly to my FedEx account. Then McAlister ships it back and screws up. He failed to indicate that it was a warranty repair return and US Customs hit me with a $35 duty fee. The $35 didn't bother me much as I hadn't paid any fees on the shipment when I first received it. The $137 bothered me and remains in dispute. They sure don't like giving money back.

I agree a tube pre is a logical first step. A CP member I know was going to offer you a tube pre amp but noticed you were in Canada and aborted for that reason.

univera

SCompRacer wrote:

The International folks here tell me customs fees can be random. I've had a few shipments from McAlister Audio near Ontario to the US via FedEx Express. A couple of weeks after I got the first three shipments, I received zero cost customs invoices from FedEx via US Mail. Then I sent something back to him for warranty repair.

It was clearly marked "Warranty Repair Return" on the airbill, box and customs paperwork. Canada Customs hit me with $137 in fees and taxes. It was charged directly to my FedEx account. Then McAlister ships it back and screws up. He failed to indicate that it was a warranty repair return and US Customs hit me with a $35 duty fee. The $35 didn't bother me much as I hadn't paid any fees on the shipment when I first received it. The $137 bothered me and remains in dispute. They sure don't like giving money back.

This is a typical Canadian experience. They are notorious for having ridiculous customs. I have shipped many items to Canada and heard complaints of those having to pay ridiculous fees. I always list things as "gifts" to try to save them on fees and will undervalue the item as long as the buyer agrees to that risk i.e insurance/damage. Perhaps you can request the seller to do the same.

michael_w

I've found usps is the best for both quality shipping (safest) and with a minimal of fees. Listing things at a lesser cost than what it's actually worth is fine if you get away with it but at the rate stuff gets damaged in shipping I would be very concerned to try and pull that. The gift idea works to an extent but they'll still rape you with fees if they decide to charge you

My experiance is about the same... 180 bucks in border fees for a $200 product.