NuForce Ref 9 w/SRS 1.2 TL

hearingimpared

Does anyone have any listening experience with the Ref 9's with SRS 1.2 TLs?

I've been reading up on the REF 9s and EVERY SINGLE review I've come across from even the most stuffy, close minded and snooty audiophile reviewer from TAS to TNT and more (atleast 9) have literally raved about the REF 9's. One even said they were as good a Mark Levinson 33hs. Some say they will drive ANY and ALL speakers no matter how inefficient.

My concern . . . REF 9s = 160 W RMS / 8ohm load. I was thinking more along the lines of >300 w RMS 8 ohms mono block amps for my SRS 1.2 TLs.

Any feedback at all would be apprciated in that I can't listen to them with my 1.2 TLs yet (I'll spare you the long story).

Thanks,
Joe

schwarcw

I have no experience with the REFs. They may drive the 1.2TLs but I don't think you can really appreciate what the 1.2TL's can do without at LEAST 250 wpc. Even at low volume levels the higher power amps will bring out more of the music.

fredv

hearingimpared wrote:

My concern . . . REF 9s = 160 W RMS / 8ohm load. I was thinking more along the lines of >300 w RMS 8 ohms mono block amps for my SRS 1.2 TLs.

Monoblocks, non-common ground? If so, do you have an AI-1 cable, or make sure you can connect the ground of the speakers post of the 2 blocks.

hearingimpared

I have the AI-1 and I have found that the REF 9's grounds can be connected also.

The REF 9's 160 w 8 ohm (300 4 ohm, 350 2 ohm) per channel is supposed to be as ballsy as much higher wattage class a or a/b amps. As I said I have been searching for good 300 + w/ch mono blocks to power the 1.2 tls but the overwhelmingly great reviews of the REF 9s are very very alluring.

Midnite Mick

I have ref 9's and don't really feel they lack power at all on the lsi's. However, they are 4 ohm. I have not ever heard them on big 8 ohm speakers before. I know of somebody that had them on Usher Dancer BE 20's and felt that there was an improvement after he biamped the speakers so this implies that one amp on the speaker wasn't enough.

If you do decide to go with Nuforce make sure you do it through a dealer and not the company because in all honesty there quality control is brutal. Make sure that the dealer will take care of you if you have a problem.

Hope I have helped a little.

Good Luck,
Mike

F1nut

Since Mike owns them and I don't, put more weight into his opinion. Me? I've noticed a steady supply of used ones going thru Audiogon. Take that any way you want.

hearingimpared

a dealer and not the company because in all honesty there quality control is brutal.

Mike could you elaborate on this?

hearingimpared

Mike do the REF 9's live up to all the hype? I mean do they really tighten and deepen the BASS down to the first octive and are they absolutly transparent through mid and upper frequencies? According to the reviewers they have never experienced bass until the REF 9s and one has says it is as good if not better than his Mark Levinson 33hs.

I've noticed a steady supply of used ones going thru Audiogon.

I did a completed search on audiogon for the REF 9's the only ones that are selling are for reasons such as a fella moving from Manila to the US to attend college and has to liquidate his audio system. . . things like that. All other auction or for sale sites I have come across people are selling their REF 8s to upgrade to the REF 9s for more power.

I know of somebody that had them on Usher Dancer BE 20's and felt that there was an improvement after he biamped the speakers so this implies that one amp on the speaker wasn't enough.

Mike do you know if he biamped with the REF 9s and another amp? If so did he use the REF 9s for the lower or higher frequencies?

Thanks,
Joe

Midnite Mick

hearingimpared wrote:

Mike could you elaborate on this?

Will do.

If you read reviews of their products there are a lot of reviews in which the reviewer had some sort of technical problem with the product and it had to go back for replacement.

I myself first purchased 2 ref 9.02's and after a bit I was picking up some cracking on my left speaker at higher volume levels. I thought that I had damaged one of the mid-woofers of the lsi15's. I took in the speaker for warranty work but they found nothing wrong with it. The guy switched the two midwoofers in order to see if I notice the problem move. I got them back and everything seemed fine for about a week. Seemed weird. Then I thought maybe it was speaker positioning and room resonance I was hearing and now it was gone.

Anyways, after a week it came back worse. I was not happy. I actually thought that it was the tweeter this time so I called Polk and they sent me a new one (two thumbs up to Polk) but it was still there. I then decided to switch the monoblocks (should have done in the beginnning) and my right speaker started distorting badly. Therefore, it was clear it was the amplifier and I sent it in at my expense (I think that is where a dealer should be taking care of you)

Prior to my ref 9 problems I had also purchased 3 ref 8's. When I received them one of the led had fallen inside of the box and one of them would not even power up. We opened the case and reinstalled the led and my dealer did take care of me when the one didn't power up.

One other thing that I don't like as well is that their led's aren't always the same colour. Just seems inconsistent and amateurish. It is if they are kids building these things in someone's basement. They are a couple of technical type of guys but they don't really have anyone in there with any kind of business sense. I mean for one to not even power up? No quality control whatsoever. Just build it, box it, and shelve it. It seems very basic to see if the product even works. For this reason alone it is difficult for me to recommend them.

As far as sonics. They are neutral, very detailed, very fast, and dynamic. Yes, I do believe that their power ratings are actually higher than the equivalent solid state amps. They just don't seem to distort at all. On the lsi's it just seems that the volume is unlimited. I listen to music very loud at times and have no signs at all of any stress on the amps.

The only negative I can think of in regards to the Nuforce sound is that they are a little dry. This is why I have tubes in the mix (pre, cdp). Although I have heard them on better speakers (Usher 6371), P8 (their pre) and Onkyo 1000 universal (can't remember the letters of the Onkyo) and it was incredible. In fact I brought my modwright and jolida over for comparison at the time and with my components it could not touch the above setup. The modwright sounded blurry in comparison with the P8.

I know of somebody else on here that has had a horror story with the P8 as well. Comes back to quality control.

If you have any other questions I would glad to help as much as I can.

Good Luck,
Mike

Midnite Mick

Mike do the REF 9's live up to all the hype? I mean do they really tighten and deepen the BASS down to the first octive and are they absolutly transparent through mid and upper frequencies? According to the reviewers they have never experienced bass until the REF 9s and one has says it is as good if not better than his Mark Levinson 33hs.

This is a difficult question to answer. I will do my best in regards to what I know and have learnt. Yes, they have very tight bass. As far as deepening I think this is more speaker dependant in all honesty. I feel they are quite neutral and don't really add any weight in certain areas which I feel is what an amplifier should do. An amplifier should just amplify the input signal. As far as transparency on my lis's. I don't think so. I don't really feel that the lsi's are very transparent speakers (not by what I think of as transparency anyways). I don't think that you get tranparency when you have polyprop as a midrange. I may be wrong. However, when I heard them on Usher 6371 they were incredibly transparent but I do think that, that is the Usher sound. I think that they are very good on very good equipment.

Maybe I should define what I think of transparency as I think people define this differently. I think of transparency as that elegant, airy, openness that you get from truly HiFi.

Having said that I know of somebody that I exchange PM's with has compared them to an Anthem P5 and preferred the Anthem. However, I am not familiar with him enough to know why in terms of sonic preferrences and synergy of related equipment etc.

I did a completed search on audiogon for the REF 9's the only ones that are selling are for reasons such as a fella moving from Manila to the US to attend college and has to liquidate his audio system. . . things like that. All other auction or for sale sites I have come across people are selling their REF 8s to upgrade to the REF 9s for more power.

For anybody I would not even consider the 8's. Not at all in the same league.

Mike do you know if he biamped with the REF 9s and another amp? If so did he use the REF 9s for the lower or higher frequencies?

He biamped them with another Ref9 and felt that there was less strain on the amp.

Midnite Mick

I don't know where you are located but Nuforce has a demo program and there are a number of dealers at http://www.nextlevelav.com/forum/ . Maybe, one of them is in your area. You can also contact Nuforce in order to see if there is a local dealer as they will let you try them without obligation to purchase if you like. They do have a break in period so hopefully the demo you would receive would already be broken in.

Mike

schwarcw

Nice writeup Midnight! A lot of good info there about this amp. Maybe hearingimpaired will give jump on them and give us some testimony on their performance with big SDA's.

F1nut

hearingimpared wrote:

I did a completed search on audiogon for the REF 9's the only ones that are selling are for reasons such as a fella moving from Manila to the US to attend college and has to liquidate his audio system. . . things like that. All other auction or for sale sites I have come across people are selling their REF 8s to upgrade to the REF 9s for more power.

Just a friendly word of advice. Don't take the reasons people sell gear for at face value.


Mike, nice write up.

Midnite Mick

Very good advice Jesse.

Mike

hearingimpared

Thanks Mike for that great write up!!!

Right now I am not able to do an audition on the REF 9s as my equipment is disconnected as we are renting temporarily. We are house hunting and today I found a great house in Dover Delaware that also has a room 26' X 20', great size for the behemoth SRS 1.2 tls. The last amps I had on the SRS I had years ago were two NAD 2200s bridged mono which had more that enough power to make the SRSs sing but I know that the REF 9s are far superior. That is why I am a little skiddish about the REF 9s 160 into 8 ohn w/c rms. But those stellar reviews are hard to ignore. There is a dealer in Philly about 20 minutes from where I live who emailed me that if I bring the 1.2 tls to the store he'll set them up with the REF 9s and let me listen all I want. The problem is getting those big boys over there. I spent 16 hours last Saturday driving 800 miles round trip to pick up the big boys . . . I've had enough moving them for a while . . .I am feeling my 51 years.

Thanks for all the input guys!!!
Joe

Midnite Mick

hearingimpared wrote:

Thanks Mike for that great write up!!!

Right now I am not able to do an audition on the REF 9s as my equipment is disconnected as we are renting temporarily. We are house hunting and today I found a great house in Dover Delaware that also has a room 26' X 20', great size for the behemoth SRS 1.2 tls. The last amps I had on the SRS I had years ago were two NAD 2200s bridged mono which had more that enough power to make the SRSs sing but I know that the REF 9s are far superior. That is why I am a little skiddish about the REF 9s 160 into 8 ohn w/c rms. But those stellar reviews are hard to ignore. There is a dealer in Philly about 20 minutes from where I live who emailed me that if I bring the 1.2 tls to the store he'll set them up with the REF 9s and let me listen all I want. The problem is getting those big boys over there. I spent 16 hours last Saturday driving 800 miles round trip to pick up the big boys . . . I've had enough moving them for a while . . .I am feeling my 51 years.

Thanks for all the input guys!!!
Joe

I would wait until you get settled into a house because I am sure as a dealer of Nuforce products he/she would be obligated to honour their trial period. A lot easier transporting a couple of 7 pound monoblocks than what are probably 100 + pounds of speaker (each).

Good luck with the house shopping.

Mike

RuSsMaN

Do NOT buy those without hearing them first.

Horrible sounding amps.

hearingimpared

Horrible sounding amps.

WOW RuSsMan are they really that bad? What reference system did you use to audition them?

Mike somewhere in this thread you said that someone you knew bi-amped them and they sounded better. I'm confused if they are mono block amps how do you bi-amp them?

Thanks,
Joe

hearingimpared

182 lbs each!!!!! vs. 7 lbs. . . hmmmmm not a difficult decision.

fredv

hearingimpared wrote:

WOW RuSsMan are they really that bad? What reference system did you use to audition them?

Mike somewhere in this thread you said that someone you knew bi-amped them and they sounded better. I'm confused if they are mono block amps how do you bi-amp them?

Thanks,
Joe

Maybe quad-amp is a better term :rolleyes: 1 block for the upper binding posts (high) and 1 block for the lower posts (bass) for each speaker. For the 1.2TL's, you use the AI-1 for the bass monoblocks. That sure sounds fun!!

Midnite Mick

I guess by biamp I think of 2 amps on each speaker.

I think I described they're sound pretty good and of course that will not be for everyone as audio is subjective and everybody has preferences. What they do, do, they do very well. However, like I said they may be a little dry, especially for pure tube guys. They are very good, but require very good associated gear. If they don't sound good it is because of synergy with associated gear. The setup on the Usher's, with the Onkyo source, and the P8 was outstanding.

I feel like this discussion has changed directions a little bit. I don't want to give the impression that I am promoting their products in any way I am just providing my experiences with said equipment to try and help you out so that you can make the best decision for you, whatever that may be.

They won't be for everyone as no piece of gear is. Personally, I am not a fan of Jason and his over the top marketing strategies but to say they sound horrible is ridiculous on the opposite end of the spectrum. I personally believe there is more personal stuff going on there behind the scenes.

Here are some links of my experiences with their gear.

http://www.nextlevelav.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1541
http://www.nextlevelav.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1752&highlight=modwright


You may find more info about Nuforce on that forum as well.

Good luck,
Mike

hearingimpared

Thanks again Mike for all the helpful information. I'm going to be driving whatever amps I decide on using with a Spectral DMC 10 preamp, vintage preamp, still quick and neutral and as close to a tube pre-amp as you are going to get. The phono section is still one of the best out there.

Thanks, Joe

RuSsMaN

A 'digital' or chip amp CAN sound decent - but the magic is in the power supply. Newforce needs to address the issue, or they will be forgotten VERY quickly.

Strong words, but true (for me and many others) - we've NEVER gotten those amps to sound good, period.

hearingimpared

A 'digital' or chip amp CAN sound decent - but the magic is in the power supply. Newforce needs to address the issue, or they will be forgotten VERY quickly.

Strong words, but true (for me and many others) - we've NEVER gotten those amps to sound good, period.

I've read where Nuforce has addressed the power supply problem with the REF 9 SE + and they also have a power supply upgrade for the REF 9 ($750 for each mono block.)

But thanks for your input, I'll weigh it when I start my auditions . . . thanks again to everyone, Joe