Pro audio...

MrNightly

Ok. So we have my wife's best friend and her husband in town this past week, and they are staying at our house. The husband, John, is a big Pro Audio buff. Of course conversation turns to my HT, and the humble set-up that I have.

After a demo of my Polks, John is clearly impressed. He even lets out a few, "Wow's" during a couple of scenes on the dts track DVD.

Fast forward 1 hour...

John tells me that I can't touch pro audio equipment versus home theater product. I don't know enough to debate him, and simply say really that's great. He goes on to say how everything we hear is in mono anyways, and that surround sound really is just mono sound that's through 5 channels... He drops Carver XLS names, saying they kick arse all the way around and would be a huge plus for a pro home theater. He says that JBL is the one of the best speakers out there for pro audio and I should move into those for 15inch subs and blah blah blah. I actually got really tired of hearing about it after just a few minutes, but they stayed for 4 days. Anyways.

Fast forward another few hours, he takes me to his Ford Ranger truck where he has installed JBL speaks and a "AWESOME" Infinite sub. I slide into the drivers seat, and he cranks the volume. Geez, my ears were bleeding, because the treble was so incredible bright, and the sub was so crappy sounding, I couldn't stand it. I quickly turned the volume down and said, "Nice."

Sorry for the car rant... tell me this: What's the real truth behind "Pro Audio" and Home audio? I personally think my Polks are incredible, but as I know, to each his own. Does Pro usually blow Home audio away? Or what?

I kinda think he was blowing hot air, because of his reaction to my setup during the demos.

What is the truth?

PolkThug

Sounds like he hasn't found the path to good sound yet.

The JBL's are fun to put outside while you're playing basketball, but I wouldn't put them inside the house.
http://www.americanmusical.com/item--i-JBL-JRX115.html

PolkThug

I think I know John, I was at a party at his house back in '89 and he was crankin' Pump Up the Jam by Technotronic on some big Cerwin Vegas.

MrNightly

Oh ya, he was also saying how his pro home theater would have like 2000 watts of power, and how my little 770 watt DENON would never cut it in a pro setting. I tried to explain how watts were overrated, and it was really the amps and stuff that mattered, but couldn't quite explain it like some of you guys here. Where's CP when you need them?!

LuSh

Hello MrNightly,

Firstly you might indicate to your friend that you live in a home and not a stadium. The natural acoustics of most live venues suck, so PRO audio is already at a major disadvantage. There are really two types of pro audio. Setup's used in a live venue, and those used in a studio. Because his home probably represents a studio more then a stadium or arena I'll hazzard a guess that if were talkin about "Pro Audio" he's never going to use JBL's in that type of setting anyways.

If he knew a thing about Pro audio he'd be more likely to talk about PMC, B&W, ATC and Harbeth. These are company's that have thrived in studio use and mixing. The advantages of the products that I have outlined are their uncanny ability to be accurate. The problem lies that the use of these speakers for a studio engineer is completely different then what we the user has for home. The Studio engineer uses these to mix sounds and needs something accurate to almost a fault.

PMC, B&W, Harbeth make some fine home speakers (I've recently considered PMC for my tight setup) but proper care must be given to the setup of surrounding electronics. Most users need tone controls to elminate the harshness or digital glare. Tubes or warmer sounding cables usually enter the picture.

You might care to point out that a few company's like EMM Labs, dCs, Krell, Wilson Audio, Kharma, Tenor, VAC have pushed the home user base so far that the systems from these respective company's cost more then anything JBL can produce. If you're really bored link him to this link below,

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?vaslt&1036349020&read&d7&zzlMikelavigne&&

Please inform him that Mike Lavigne is niether a dumb or poor man. He goes to Vega's every year with the intent on buying something if it could potentially take his system to the next level. I'm going to hazzard a second guess and assume you're friend has never seen a setup like that before. Oh, then you can point to the fact that there is over $300,000 in a room for only a 2 channel setup. Imagine if Mike decided to 5.1?

PolkThug

MrNightly wrote:

Oh ya, he was also saying how his pro home theater would have like 2000 watts of power

Yep, most people actually use a lot less wattage than they think.

So, with 90db efficient speaker, in perfect conditions:

90db on spl at one meter = 1 watt.
93db = 2 watts
96db = 4 watts
99db = 8watts
102db = 16 watts
105db = 32 watts
108db = 64 watts
111db = 128watts
114db = 256 watts
117db = 512 watts

EricBurg

Well, I have heard your system and would definitely say that you should stick with your setup! I guarantee that it sounds a lot better than that guys system. Like others have said, you live in a house, not a stadium or dance club. A 1000 watt 5 channel home audio amp would be about all you need in your theater area.

I know that there are many people who do use pro audio gear and have gotten good results in their home setups. I have quite a bit of experience with pro audio gear from my college days when I played bass guitar in a band. The drawbacks that I can see is that noise is easily introduced into the audio chain, especially if you don't use the balanced line connections, levels are more tedious to set and the fans in these units can be quite loud. I'm not saying it won't work, but the setup requires more work than most people are willing to put in. Plus, I'm not sure that you really save much money on good pro audio amps over good mid level home amps.

Eric

Frank Z

57gigawatts of power does not = fidelity.
Loud does not = good sound
rack handles do not = clarity

Next time he's at your place..cuff him, **** slap him....leave him in a dumpster behind BestBuy.

speakergeek

Frank Z wrote:

57gigawatts of power does not = fidelity.
Loud does not = good sound
rack handles do = clarity

Next time he's at your place..cuff him, **** slap him....leave him in a dumpster behind BestBuy.

Awesome!

speakergeek

MrNightly wrote:

He says that JBL is the one of the best speakers out there for pro audio and I should move into those for 15inch subs and blah blah blah. I actually got really tired of hearing about it after just a few minutes, but they stayed for 4 days. Anyways.?

The truth...He needs to hear a SVS sub...If fifteen inches was a good number for woofer size, I'd expect those guys to be using them. But they don't do they? He probably thinks the old Japanese paper woofs rock better.

opus

MrNightly wrote:

Ok.


What is the truth?

He is a jackass. Simple enough.

VR3

JBL is some of the worst PA stuff. (For the money)

Mackie, Yamaha are far better sounding stuff in the PA world.

The only PA stuff I would use in the home is made by Tyler Acoustics.

And I would be using lil 8 watt tube amps with them, not alot of power. That stuff will ruin your hearing with little effort. Seriously.

Your friend is a moron.

HBombToo

A coworker, engineer and great friend is also a fine musician and has built a studio for his own mixes.

http://www.jwolfstudios.com/

He will typically come to my very humble abode every couple months and bring his most recent stuff. We have proved in techniques for mixing down his bass along with levels across the entire band. he was just here last weekend and he was so pleased with what he heard from my system with his mix that a large proud smile was stuck to my face all week.

A simple and elegant system is all you need... NOT brute force.

1/4 twin

MrNightly

Vr3MxStyler2k3 wrote:

JBL is some of the worst PA stuff. (For the money)

Mackie, Yamaha are far better sounding stuff in the PA world.

The only PA stuff I would use in the home is made by Tyler Acoustics.

And I would be using lil 8 watt tube amps with them, not alot of power. That stuff will ruin your hearing with little effort. Seriously.

Your friend is a moron.

Never said he was my friend Wife's best friend's husband was more accurate.

Secondly, thanks for all the replies, good info here. I've never been impressed with JBL but wasn't sure what the responses would be on here.

SpeakerGeek: I can't wait until I can afford an SVS to incorporate into my system. Until then, I can only dream of Toby's.

Eric: You should hear it now!!! Tweaked a few things here and there, and got a digital cable for DD and dts!!! Night and day difference.

I guess I won't go buy a Crown amp now.. not that there was much risk of that in the first place...

unc2701

Actually, for big auditorium installs, JBL is pretty well-respected. Yamaha is better known for club size live sound, mackie's best known for their mixers.

Anyhow, Lush nails an important distinction- studio sound is very different from live sound. Studio sound can be a little harsh since it's supposed to be perfect, clean, sterile reproduction. Live is all about volume and projection without setting anything on fire. I wouldn't recommend live sound to anyone for inhome install, but studio gear is certainly an option- of course, I use brystons, so what else would I say? Studio gear isn't for everyone, but there's great gear to be had... For example, the benchmark DAC was never really intended for home use when they were building it, but that turned out to be a great buy.

I have a crown XS amp. Works great as a subwoofer amp, but it doesn't hold a candle to any of the home audio amps I've owned.

Toxis

hahahahaha JBL pro sound. Man that's funny. That is the same guy who will be selling Theater Research out the back of a van in a few more years. He honestly doesn't know pro sound and I guarantee you know HT better than he knows Pro. He's just confident and knows a few models. Whoopty do! I'll put my LSi setup against his 200 million, billion, gazillion watt system any day. To bad he'll never actually SEE that much power even if he has the amps to output it. Just read above for the stats there. Hell, I'd take a Klipsch pro speaker over anything JBL has ever made in the pro world. I would've loved to be there and shot him down in a blazing glory. Not to mention, I doubt I would've been nice about his craptastic car setup... yet another field I would've owned him in.

AlanD

JBL is like Daimler-Chrysler -- they've got the crappy Dodge Caliber and the Mercedes SLR-McLaren. Unfortunately they don't have anything in between.

Most of JBL's stuff today is low-end, mass-market sound. On the other hand, the JBL Synthesis line is still considered one of the best reference home theater setups.

It's the same thing with Infinity speakers. Most of them are just "basic" speakers, but their flagship Prelude MTS is superb.

It's a little bit like Polk too -- it has good sound throughout the line, but it's really only the LSi line that competes against the flagship audiophile brands.

tonyb

Sounds like he's one of those guys who is more interested in the amount of watts his amp puts out and the size of his woofers than what sounds good.
As my wife say's.....a **** extention.:)

ND13

AlanD wrote:

JBL is like Daimler-Chrysler -- they've got the crappy Dodge Caliber and the Mercedes SLR-McLaren. Unfortunately they don't have anything in between.

You might want to learn about what you are talking about before making idiotic statements like that.:rolleyes:

Oh and this one too....

It's a little bit like Polk too -- it has good sound throughout the line, but it's really only the LSi line that competes against the flagship audiophile brands.

ND13

It's a little bit like Polk too -- it has good sound throughout the line, but it's really only the LSi line that competes against the flagship audiophile brands

Why did you join this forum anyway. You obviously know better than any of us about Polk's line of speakers and their marketing strategy. And, from your .04 posts per day, have little to each us about said knowledge.

Please just go away and swing your E-**** in someone else's forum.

speakergeek

AlanD wrote:

It's a little bit like Polk too -- it has good sound throughout the line, but it's really only the LSi line that competes against the flagship audiophile brands.

Spoken like a real troll...:rolleyes:

AlanD

Whoa. Totally taken out of context. I own a complete LSi set and I'm about to pick up another pair for my second setup.

Here's what I meant by that phrase: Among the current Polk home line-up, there's no doubt that the LSi line is the best. I prefer the LSi9's to more expensive Sonus Faber's, Revel's etc.

On the other hand, take the R15. It's a very good speaker for its price range, but the Polk R15 isn't a speaker that is going to be competitive against a $800 Dynaudio 40.

If someone just listened to the R15, they'd say "The Polk R15 is great for an under $200 speaker, but the R15 really doesn't compete against the flagship audiophile stuff." Being an Polk LSi fan, I'd say "yeah, the R15 won't compete against B&W, revel, etc. but the LSi9 will." The LSi line just happens to be a product that you won't find in a Circuit City, etc. You have to go to Tweeter, or an audiophile salon.

The parallel is JBL. If you just listen to the JBL speakers you can find in Best Buy, you'll say that JBL sucks. But, saying that the entire brand sucks is inaccurate. If you listen to the high-end JBL speakers (i.e. K2's) that you'll only find in dedicated audiophile salons, you'll see why it's pretty good.

Same with Infinity -- there's a difference between the Prelude MTS and the Infinity Beta line.

Remember, the LSi was Polk Audio's "return" to the high-end audio. They've never made bad speakers -- but in the years before the LSi (and after the SRT), Polk wasn't actively competing in the high-end.

All I'm saying is that if you jump to conclusions about the JBL speakers you've heard, it'd be the same as someone else jumping to conclusions about Polk (if they haven't heard the LSi). In my opinion though, JBL's last "great" budget speaker was the HLS-610 -- and the only high-end stuff I like is the K2 (not a big fan of the TiK). For the intermediate price range, there are other speakers that I prefer.

AlanD

The other thing I didn't mention was that not all "pro audio" is driven by SPL. A lot of pro audio is driven by SPL, but all pro audio isn't driven by SPL...

mrbigbluelight

that he has the manners of a goat.

He comes in your house, as the spouse of your wife's friend, and proceeds to play the "your gear's crap, mine's the best" game.

Bad manners. It wouldn't have mattered if you had a Best Buy Insignia HT out a box system, he should have displayed manners.

"Oh, I see you're getting into home theater ! Man, that's exciting !"

Now, it's different on here: post about your "best darn HT system out there", and you mention Insignia, well.....expect to get chewed on. And rightfully so. And you learn.

But you don't do that in someone else's home, as an invited GUEST.

HBombToo

mrbigbluelight wrote:

that he has the manners of a goat.

I think it reduces to insecurity unfortunatly.

Lsi9

This is a funny thread...its always the guys with the pro audio who think they know sound, when in actuality they have 'paper' ears

madmax

After reading through all this I thought I would share a few thoughts. At one point I had about 12KW of carver and other pro amplifier sound for my house. This sound was routed through all sorts of eq's and other sound enhancement devices and fed 4 18" subs, JBL low frequency drivers and for the top end, SDA-SRS. I found tubes before I progressed to horns for the top end. It was pretty spectacular and would have gotten a WOW from the most hardened high spl freaks. Fairly decent quality but a totally different ballpark from audiophile sound. Still, quite a hoot. I still miss it now and then. Of course this is all wow factor and after 30 minutes it became tiring. In any case, your friend has probably experienced some of what I was going for. Nothing wrong with that, audio is in the ear of the cranker. In the end it just didn't make much sense due to the short playing times, neighbors and risk of hearing damage. Luckily, I was always happy with a short blast so nothing was lost. Like everything else, if you were to throw enough money and time at it you would end up with something pretty unique. Believe me, it was not a junk sound like you heard in his pickup, at least not with the right equipment set up properly. Truthfully, if I had the funds I would probably head the same direction again but with tubes. I doubt I would ever go nearly as far though.

BTW, JBL cannot be beat in the realm of pro audio.
madmax

drew spelts

I know a guy that acts exactly like the goat that came to your house. I completely sympathise with you. Guys like that are luckily fairly rare to be that extreme. If he ever wants to come over again just don't let him no matter what. He should give up after about 2 years or so. I do believe that insecurity is the main problem that they face and that is why they act so ignorant and demening. And one last thought, If you have the tools or know someone that does, you can build your own sub for about half the cost and it will be just as good IMO. That way you can have that SVS sound and only have to save half as long.

ledhed

Sure, watts matter in large spaces where speakers really have to work. And I don't understand him talking about "Pro" woofers. From my experience, subwoofers aren't used very often because it gets muddy quick and can really mess with vocals and make things hard to understand.

But of course the big divide is that "Pro" audio is about getting alot of people in the same place to just be able to hear and understand something. Home audio is about enjoying it, BIG difference.