Rebellion in the UK

Demiurge

Shizelbs wrote:

My sack its all about safety.

That was my point. It was funny we just got into a discussion about helmet and seatbelt laws on this forum a week ago, and now were talking about more crap being pushed in the name of safety.

Is the slippery slope argument still ****? Afterall, what could be better than cameras that tell to actual story of what happened at any given intersection?

My point is that I am very much against this just as all of the other so-called safety laws.

petrym

...safety to fill the waning cash flows their foolish uncontrolled spending has caused.

tommyboy

It doesn't matter if its a camera or a police officer, you are still innocent until proven guilty and have the right to fight the ticket if you want to.

I think most accidents at an intersection are caused by people not realizing they are going through a light, rather then trying to race through it. Most of the time, people get through the red light before the other light turns green. The closest I have gotten to be in an accident was when someone didn't realize they went through a light and barely missed me.

This is a way to get more money out of people and not have to pay for more police.

Shizelbs

Maybe its just me, but I cannot remember the last time I saw someone truly run through a red light, you know, to the point where it would cause an accident.

wodom1

Shizelbs wrote:

Maybe its just me, but I cannot remember the last time I saw someone truly run through a red light, you know, to the point where it would cause an accident.

I see that happen just about every day in Chicago. There are some stupid ****'s driving in this town.

Demiurge

wodom1 wrote:

I see that happen just about every day in Chicago. There are some stupid ****'s driving in this town.

I spend a lot of weekends down there, and I can tell you that it's like night and day just the 1 1/2" hour drive from Milwaukee to Chicago. People are effin' crazy down there.

I especially love the guys who will go 120+ in their sports cars and then slam on their brakes as soon as they hit a patch of traffic.

amulford

You ain't seen nothin yet...

bobman1235

Shizelbs wrote:

Maybe its just me, but I cannot remember the last time I saw someone truly run through a red light, you know, to the point where it would cause an accident.

I was hit on my motorcycle by just such an occurance a couple years ago.

cfrizz

It might not cause a car accident, but some unsuspecting pedestrian crossing the street now that they have a walk signal might get mowed down!

Shizelbs wrote:

Maybe its just me, but I cannot remember the last time I saw someone truly run through a red light, you know, to the point where it would cause an accident.

Polkersince85

Many of the state departments of transportation have cameras set up on the interstates. Go to the websites. I know they used them on the news during the Florida hurricanes.

MacLeod

cindy100 wrote:

MacLeod,

May I ask why you don't the red light cameras? They have installed them where I live and personally, I think it's a good idea. In my opinion, I think it will hopefully save the lives of innocent people. People running red lights(not yellow but definitely red) is a huge problem here. If I'm the first one to go once the light turns green, I always wait to make sure some idiot isn't going through the red light and usually get honked at but I feel much safer.

Cindy

Most of my reasons have already been covered but Ill give my $.02

Brett is right, these things are NOTHING more than a revenue source for the city, country or whoever. Period! A quick way to make $50 a pop.

And the pictures have no context. Say you pull up passed the white line but youre still stopped at the red light. Well, if the picture is snapped right, it looks like you just ran a red light. $50 for for doing nothing! Now if that had been a cop sitting there he wouldve seen you were running a red light and you wouldve got no ticket.

Or say you get into the intersection and get stuck about the time the camera flashes. Yup, $50. And if John Q Law was sitting there he obviously wouldve seen what was going on and never bothered you.

I have no problem with surveillance cameras like the ones used on the freeways as those are a big help in clearing up wrecks and so on. But when theyre used to catch speeders or red light runners, Im totally against it because of the no context thing.

MrNightly

brettw22 wrote:

You certainly can disagree, but each camera pulls in roughly a a million dolllars per month. They're not put anywhere that won't make the city their millions.

Wow. A million dollars a month. With that new budget, every officer would be decked in the latest gear, the best weapons available, and newest style of vehicle imaginable. Why don't you back up your, "Million dolllars per month" comment with some facts? A link to a city's budget or cash flow??? Anything to back up this statement.

Regarding distractions, I totally disagree with you on this. Every intersection in my city has camera's on the light polls. I don't ever look up or even think about them unless I'm stopped in traffic and happen to look up.

Give me a royal break that people can be distracted by the camera's. That's the biggest bunch of excuses from government haters I've ever heard. Most of the camera's aren't even recording along the intersections yet, but they are available for zoom in case of a high speed chase, or criminal suspect fleeing. They can assist in detection of these criminals, as no officer could possibly do.

Skynut wrote:

This is another way the government divides us and takes advantage of us...
they are going to try to force everyone to obey the letter of the law while the cops speed by on their way to the doughnut shop.

Total big brother money maker to me.
__________________

And regarding the comments about the cops running to the donut store, give me a break. Why don't you strap a uniform on, put your life on the line every single day for people to only complain that you are fat and lazy, before you comment on a guy or girls eating habits. When was the last time you ate a candy bar? Or drank another Mountain Dew? Quite stereotyping cops. They do more and go through more in their personal lives than anyone will ever know. Go ahead... imagine putting yourself in ultimate danger for the safety of the people, only to have the same stupid citizens complain that cops are lazy and good for nothing. Freaking ridiculous and blind-sighted by the citizens.

If you have a problem with the government (And trust me, I do) it has NOTHING to do with the local level law-enforcement. You honestly think that the local law enforcement thought up a plan to put camera's on each and every intersection? Give me a break. Those that commented on the skin-implants are closer to the target than you can imagine.

End rant...

Shizelbs

Not sure how many cameras they have, but DC expects to make $160 mill per year from the cameras.

http://www.motorists.com/pressreleases/redlightrevenue.html

MrNightly

Shizelbs wrote:

Not sure how many cameras they have, but DC expects to make $160 mill per year from the cameras.

http://www.motorists.com/pressreleases/redlightrevenue.html

Good link. A little note is that the "The National Motorists Association was established in 1982 to represent the interests and rights of North American motorists..." so they did seem a little slanted. But you are right. It was more money than I expected they would pull in from those... but again, the article didn't pin down total net that was achieved either. It merely stated that Washington DC (One of the most populated cities in the entire USA no less) was hoping to pull in during a said year.

Now I want to see a city's budget from these cameras. But I do believe it goes back to the basic fact, would a person do the act, if an officer was sitting right there watching? 95% wouldn't. So, is it really just another, "Cash Cow" as some have said, or another way to enforce laws? To be honest, I haven't made up my mind completely either...

jtgranby

Shizelbs wrote:

Not sure how many cameras they have, but DC expects to make $160 mill per year from the cameras.

http://www.motorists.com/pressreleases/redlightrevenue.html

They got $65 from me doing 45mph in a 25mph zone. My goodness I can't drive 25mph.

JT

VR3

Dude, the 25 mph speed limit makes no sense... unless you are in a small town where everyone is parallel parked and all that jazz. Other than that, 35 mph should be in towns a lil bigger and the city limit should be 45, and the highway 55 - and the interstate 85 to 75.

Nothing annoys me more than 45 - because everyone will be going 50-55 and theres also two jackasses going the speed limit side by side on a 2 lane road that is backing up traffic.

UGH

jtgranby

Vr3MxStyler2k3 wrote:

Dude, the 25 mph speed limit makes no sense... unless you are in a small town where everyone is parallel parked and all that jazz. Other than that, 35 mph should be in towns a lil bigger and the city limit should be 45, and the highway 55 - and the interstate 85 to 75.

Nothing annoys me more than 45 - because everyone will be going 50-55 and theres also two jackasses going the speed limit side by side on a 2 lane road that is backing up traffic.

UGH

Hey
Come on over to DC 90% of the roads are 25mph:eek:

JT

tommyboy

Sorry for getting of the subject a little bit but I just have a quick question. Just say the speed limit is 35 mph. You are coming towards an intersection and there is a yellow sign telling you to go 20 mph when going through the intersection (usually the other people have a stop sign). If you guys ever noticed these signs, are you really supposed to slow down to that speed? If a cop was behind you, could you get a ticket? I never see anyone actually slowing down (I never do either) when seeing these signs. If you guys don't know what Im talking about please ignore.

tommyboy

wodom1

MacLeod wrote:

And the pictures have no context. Say you pull up passed the white line but youre still stopped at the red light. Well, if the picture is snapped right, it looks like you just ran a red light. $50 for for doing nothing! Now if that had been a cop sitting there he wouldve seen you were running a red light and you wouldve got no ticket.

Or say you get into the intersection and get stuck about the time the camera flashes. Yup, $50. And if John Q Law was sitting there he obviously wouldve seen what was going on and never bothered you.

When I got a $90 ticket from a red light camera, there were three pictures. One of my car at the stop line with the light shown as red, another with my car in the middle of the intersection with the red light, and one of me on the other side of the intersection with the red light. I know that if you're already in the intersection and stopped waiting to make a left turn and the light turns red, you won't get a ticket since you didn't 'run' the light. I'll try to find the ticket that got mailed to me and post it.

MrNightly

MacLeod wrote:

Most of my reasons have already been covered but Ill give my $.02

Brett is right, these things are NOTHING more than a revenue source for the city, country or whoever. Period! A quick way to make $50 a pop.

And the pictures have no context. Say you pull up passed the white line but youre still stopped at the red light. Well, if the picture is snapped right, it looks like you just ran a red light. $50 for for doing nothing! Now if that had been a cop sitting there he wouldve seen you were running a red light and you wouldve got no ticket.

Or say you get into the intersection and get stuck about the time the camera flashes. Yup, $50. And if John Q Law was sitting there he obviously wouldve seen what was going on and never bothered you.

I have no problem with surveillance cameras like the ones used on the freeways as those are a big help in clearing up wrecks and so on. But when theyre used to catch speeders or red light runners, Im totally against it because of the no context thing.

Well, when I was beating the streets, I wrote many a ticket for improper stop. By law, all four tires must be completely behind the white line. If the front tires even touch it, you can get ticketed. I pulled like 5 oz's of powder off this guy, and that was the reason I used to stop him. So, regardless of what you think, if the camera's "Mistake" you for running the light, you actually broke a traffic law with the improper stop in the first place! If the cops really want to start cracking down, dude, there are SOOOO many laws that aren't enforced such as:

Driving barefoot
Cracked Windshield
Tag lights not visible from 500 ft away
Any color of light other than RED coming from the rear of the vehicle
Not passing while in the left hand lane on a two lane street (Causing traffic to become backed up)
Coasting down a hill in neutral
Crossing a double line
Not coming to complete stops behind the visible stop line (If no line, behind the stop signal)
Not allowing a minimum of 2 (two) seconds following distance
Parking more than 12 inches away from the curb
Not signaling 100feet before a turn...

you get the point... TON'S of little laws that are let go every single day. You throw up a few camera's at some intersections, and suddenly your actions can and are being observed. Sounds like a bunch of babies crying to me...

MrNightly

tommyboy wrote:

Sorry for getting of the subject a little bit but I just have a quick question. Just say the speed limit is 35 mph. You are coming towards an intersection and there is a yellow sign telling you to go 20 mph when going through the intersection (usually the other people have a stop sign). If you guys ever noticed these signs, are you really supposed to slow down to that speed? If a cop was behind you, could you get a ticket? I never see anyone actually slowing down (I never do either) when seeing these signs. If you guys don't know what Im talking about please ignore.

tommyboy

Tommy,

Those yellow signs are "Recommended Speeds" You won't get ticketed for simply obeying the posted speed limit (White signs). Similar to exit ramps having posted advised speed limits.

brettw22

I think some of y'all are confused about what cameras do what. The types of cameras being bitched about here are still photo, non-zoom, fixed angle point camera's that take pics of both the front of your vehicle as well as the rear to get your plate information. Traffic camera's that give you those beautifully drizzle covered lens angles are a non-concern.

The line sensor for camera'd red light intersections is what mandates the camera triggering. It's not the camera picking the time to snap. Once the light turns red, the sensor in the concrete activates (kinda like left turn lane sensors knowing you're there to trigger the light to turn on it's next rotation). If you're racing to get through, you will be crossing that sensor (a line that is past the crosswalk and into the intersection) on a red. If you drive through these intersections, you probably will see some red reflective tape or paint out past the crosswalk that gives the viewer an accurate frame of reference on where they're at when they ran it. Some of the more advanced systems will show you in your pictures how long the light has been red when you're at the various points of the intersection. Again, I think red light camera's are a good thing.

Parking vans on the sides of roads, these types of camera's on freeways, or in the middle of any given block all do nothing more than generate revenue and should be reasons that people are voted out of office. I guarantee you that if their concern is keeping people slowed down, a cop sitting on the side of a road with a radar gun will have a much better effect than a camera tucked behind some bushes. The reason they have cameras there instead of cops? M O N E Y

1996blackmax

szhleppy wrote:

Anyways, the guy gets defensive right away and explains to me that the cameras are right 100% of the time and that there is no way that someone would get trapped in the intersection without intentionally trying to run the red light.

That guy is incorrect. I have been stuck in an intersection before without trying run a red, or a yellow light. I was on the right hand lane out of two lanes that were turning left. Right after making that turn there is a gas station/mini mart/car wash station and another store. The day it happened some smart guys decides to pull out of there at the same time as the cars are going, and then some guys treid pulling in. This created a jam at the intersection that I, as well as other motorist could not avoid. I was luckily behind a big van and just got as close as I could to it when the light turned red, and the flashes started going. Hopefully the other guys were as close as me because I never received anything in the mail. This would be a perfect example how this day several people would have had to pay for something they had no control over.

My Mom was involved in an accident because someone ran a red light. Her car was t-boned and lets just say my family is very lucky to have her around. I do see many people passing red lights here in San Diego. I have seen very close calls with pedestrians. One of the closest calls was with a group of kids, that really made me upset. If it helps cut down on people doing that, fine I am all for it. Having said that I also believe there should be some common sense put in, as the situation that I explained does occur.

MacLeod

MrNightly wrote:

Well, when I was beating the streets, I wrote many a ticket for improper stop. By law, all four tires must be completely behind the white line. If the front tires even touch it, you can get ticketed. I pulled like 5 oz's of powder off this guy, and that was the reason I used to stop him. So, regardless of what you think, if the camera's "Mistake" you for running the light, you actually broke a traffic law with the improper stop in the first place! If the cops really want to start cracking down, dude, there are SOOOO many laws that aren't enforced such as:

Driving barefoot
Cracked Windshield
Tag lights not visible from 500 ft away
Any color of light other than RED coming from the rear of the vehicle
Not passing while in the left hand lane on a two lane street (Causing traffic to become backed up)
Coasting down a hill in neutral
Crossing a double line
Not coming to complete stops behind the visible stop line (If no line, behind the stop signal)
Not allowing a minimum of 2 (two) seconds following distance
Parking more than 12 inches away from the curb
Not signaling 100feet before a turn...

you get the point... TON'S of little laws that are let go every single day. You throw up a few camera's at some intersections, and suddenly your actions can and are being observed. Sounds like a bunch of babies crying to me...

Right but we go back to that whole context thing. Id be willing to bet every one of those tickets you wrote because somebody went 6" passed the white line were to people that got attitudes with you and were generally ****.

The law is black and white, no doubt there but the penalties offer a lot of discretion because there is a big difference between somebody not paying attention and stopping a foot passed the white line and some drunk jerk flying thru a red light at 70 mph. Camera's dont have the discretion a police officer does.

Thats like saying the fines for speeding will be $500 regardless if you were doing 60 in a 55 or 160.

MrNightly

MacLeod wrote:

Right but we go back to that whole context thing. Id be willing to bet every one of those tickets you wrote because somebody went 6" passed the white line were to people that got attitudes with you and were generally ****.

I can see your point, but in all honesty, tickets are written for one of three reasons: 1) Trying to meet your Quota. (Every department has a quota, whether spoken or not.) 2) The guy pisses you off. (It happens ) 3) You just feel like it. (Usually goes hand in hand with #1 unless you are a newbie and getting your feet wet.)

Another thing to realize, is that Police "Criminally Profile." If a vehicle looks like its up to no good, (And yes, there are PLENTY of ways this occurs, which you learn through training and experience) a good cop will find a way to pull that car over to check out the inside.

MacLeod wrote:

The law is black and white, no doubt there but the penalties offer a lot of discretion because there is a big difference between somebody not paying attention and stopping a foot passed the white line and some drunk jerk flying thru a red light at 70 mph. Camera's dont have the discretion a police officer does.

You have a good point. No one can take the common sense that a human being has. At this time, Robots can't, camera's can't and computer's can't. But until they can, it makes sense to me to utilize the tools that the local cities have to accomplish routine tasks. If nothing else, think of how much discussing it has generated among people like you and me? That in and of itself, is accomplishing quite a bit.

MacLeod wrote:

Thats like saying the fines for speeding will be $500 regardless if you were doing 60 in a 55 or 160.

Not quite the same. Besides, just because you get a ticket mailed to you in the mail, doesn't mean you are guilty. If you know you are Innocent, take it to court and tell the judge what happened. Same thing a cop says when handing over a ticket to the violator: Sign here, it's not an admission of guilt, just that you agree to show up in court or pay the fine by the date listed below.

HBombToo

MrNightly wrote:

Not passing while in the left hand lane on a two lane street (Causing traffic to become backed up)

If this law was enforced the stress levels and safety on the highways would be so much better.

Furthermore, the other night on Modern Marvels was about the Autobahn and they stated that drivers "HAD TO DRIVE RIGHT AND PASS LEFT" or they would be ticketed. In other words, NO loitering in the passing lane.

A-Holes clogging up the passing lane make my blood boil!

HBomb

Demiurge

MrNightly --

A million dollars a month in the city of Chicago is chump change. I'm actually surprised it's that low.

MrNightly

Demiurge wrote:

MrNightly --

A million dollars a month in the city of Chicago is chump change. I'm actually surprised it's that low.

Ya, you are probably right. I'm thinking smaller cities like the one I worked in. Kansas ain't that big ya know The city i worked for only had 140,000 people living in it. 1M there would be a years worth of tickets!!!

1996blackmax

HBombToo wrote:

If this law was enforced the stress levels and safety on the highways would be so much better.

Furthermore, the other night on Modern Marvels was about the Autobahn and they stated that drivers "HAD TO DRIVE RIGHT AND PASS LEFT" or they would be ticketed. In other words, NO loitering in the passing lane.

A-Holes clogging up the passing lane make my blood boil!

HBomb

I do not understand the people that do this. Whenever I am in the fast lane and I see someone coming up behind me, I do not hesitate to move. The first chance I get I am out of the way. I wish everyone else would do that.

MrNightly

1996blackmax wrote:

I do not understand the people that do this. Whenever I am in the fast lane and I see someone coming up behind me, I do not hesitate to move. The first chance I get I am out of the way. I wish everyone else would do that.

Ya, no kidding. I never think about staying and clogging up the passing lane. Some people are just rude, on the road and off it seems... Pity