Replacement Windows - HELP!!!!

schwarcw

I've been a homeowner for 30 years. I've never had to deal with replacement windows since I had either a new home or a home that already had replacements. My homes have always had Anderson or Pella. My current home is 45 years old and has the original single pane casement windows. I've lived here about three years. The windows have not been a problem until recently. Condensation, a little frost, etc. Time for new ones. I've had visits by two window companies. One had vinyl, the other fiberglass. Both claim their materials are the best. Both have lifetime warranties. I'm concerned about the material properties of the fiberglass in the extreme temperatures. The vinyl just seemed a toy. The vinyls had stainless steel frames but didn't have the solid feel of the wood clad windows.

I'm interested in hearing opinions of others who went through this process. Fiberglass? Vinyl? Wood clad with vinyl or aluminum? This is a big investment, especially when I'm consideing replacing the three sets of French Doors on our main living level. Ouch!:(

MrNightly

Go with a double paned, lowE, double hung window. And make sure they fold in for easy cleaning as well. I wouldn't buy into all the hype of which is better and which isn't.

I personally have put Vinyl into several houses, and they are rock solid. Super easy to open, clean and they just look nice. Of course they are lighter than Wood, but don't let that fool you. The main thing, is you want the LowE and you should be good to go.

I had a bid at $589 a window from this one company. Their selling point was that their windows were breakproof (***within consideration of course I was informed ) Absolutely no difference from their bid to the $200 a window guys besides the breakproof stuff which will still break with a bat!

Good luck! Nothing like a new window to enjoy the views. Oh ya, make sure you get the paned ones that are built into the glass. Makes for a much nicer "Window" feel!

MattN03

I work in the window industry-Product Engineer for a window company in the south actually. I am not familiar with fiberglass construction, as we only produce vinyl and aluminum units. Vinyl with Low-E will give you the best performance, ie energy savings in the long run. Post up the companies you are checking out along with the style of window (casement, single hung, double hung, etc) and maybe I can point out the good and bad in the products.

schwarcw

Thanks for the feedback guys! I need to stay with the casement style window because of the size of the window and the "look" of the house. The vinyl guy did show me the thick low E glass that they use. Here is the link for the fiberglass windows: http://www.metropolitanwindows.com/windows/windows.html Your advice is appreciated!

Carl

MattN03

schwarcw wrote:

Thanks for the feedback guys! I need to stay with the casement style window because of the size of the window and the "look" of the house. The vinyl guy did show me the thick low E glass that they use. Here is the link for the fiberglass windows: http://www.metropolitanwindows.com/windows/windows.html Your advice is appreciated!

Carl

They really don't provide any technical info on the casement windows. Truth Hardware makes some of the best casement hardware (the hinges, operator, tie bars, etc). I would recommend finding what brand of hardware they use.

MrNightly

Here's one on the low down cheap from the HD. http://homedepot.bighammersoftware.com/ProductInfo.aspx?cid=791202&pid=188ac5bc-a49e-46e7-9023-2f4411eaec5f Not a bad deal really. You would be surprised that you don't have to spend $500 a window to get some quality products! Explore the options in your area, and make an educated decision.

Sounds like Audio

MattN03

MrNightly wrote:

You would be surprised that you don't have to spend $500 a window to get some quality products! Explore the options in your area, and make an educated decision.

That is exactly right. Do Pella & Anderson make good windows-yes, but are they worth that much money-maybe/maybe not. Their aggressive advertisement practices make people think they have to pay their prices to get a quality window or door.

schwarcw

MrNightly wrote:

You would be surprised that you don't have to spend $500 a window to get some quality products! Explore the options in your area, and make an educated decision.

Exactly my thoughts! I'm planning to talk with some independent contractors who aren't married to any manufacturer. I'm trying to learn as much as possible, I've got to get a contract going by the middle of June.

Carl

MrNightly

So, how's the process going??? Any decisions on the new windows?

Keep us posted. (I, for one, enjoy the home remodeling business side of things )

schwarcw

I'm still getting some quotes. I have one vinyl, and one fiberglass. Last weekend an independent contractor who came to me highly recommended sat down with me. Has does not a franchise rep so he can install anything I want. He's been in the business over thirty years. He recommended wood windows. He has installed vinyl, fiberglass, aluminum, etc. He likes Anderson, Pella and Marvin. But since I don't want an interior finished wood look, he said that Anderson has a factory white finish that's pretty good. Because of the large surface area of glass that I want to replace, he said Pella or Marvin would probably be too expensive. He also said he would give me a price on some decent vinyl windows he has worked with (Farley). I should have his quote in another few days. Another problem I have is that I want to replace three sets of French doors that we have on the first level. Decent entry doors with storm doors will probably cost me more than the windows. We want to let a contract before June 17th so crunch time is coming. I'll keep everyone informed. Mr. Nightly, I may PM you some cost details after I get all my stuff together. This is not going to be cheap:(

Stew

I'm in the same boat. We're starting to look at replacement windows for a 26 year old house with worn out casement windows. Has anyone tried Champion Windows? They advertise vinyl replacement windows, custom built to the size of the openings, direct factory sales with no middleman, lifetime warranty on product and installation, etc., etc. It almost sounds too good to be true, but Good Housekeeping and Bob Villa approve They're made in factories all over the country including one in Pittsburgh, Carl. If anyone has tried these, would appreciate your opinion.

Stew

drew spelts

Well hell, if Bob Villa aproves then by all means thats for sure the way to go..... Yeah Right. If you have ever watched him on his show he is an absolute and complete idiot. I know more about building than he does some time (or at least thats the way it seems). Never buy anything aproved by someone that makes ove $500,000 a year. Buy from the guy thats been in the business for a while and knows what he is talking about as long as you can see no angle for him to get a kick back one way or the other to persuade his salesmanship. Just my thoughts but hey if you think Bob is a good guy that thats your thing. LOL.

simm

I wanted to replace just a couple of windows in my old house and called Champion for an estimate. They wanted me to come to their showroom but because of work scheduling I couldn't do it. The day of the appointment 2 people showed up to give me a demo involving heat lamps and something else I can't remember. They seemed a little put out that my wife wasn't there for the presentation although I had told them I just wanted an estimate for a couple replacements not all new windows and was not interested in the best quality as we would be selling soon. In the middle of the presentation the guy who had been helping the presenter, I guess he was really the boss, realized I wasn't going to buy 16 windows from then and said that they would do them for $600 per window and started packing up their stuff. Never looked at the windows I wanted done and never took a measurement. I found a local guy to do the work I wanted done for about $200 per window.

Champion struck me as a high pressure sales outfit. My experience may be different than others but I don't believe I will give them a chance next time I need window work done.

doucanoe

Hi, I new to posting here but figured that I shoud register to comment on this subject.

I am project manager for a remodel contractor in the Mpls/St. Paul metro area and been in the industry for 20+ years. First off, repalcement windows must be broken into 2 distinct areas. The first being "insert replacement" windows and the second being "full replacement" windows. Insert replacement being the most common especially for double hung openings. Insert replacement units can might also be broken down further into jamb liner units and full frame inserts. Typically, and for argument sake i will assume that you are looking at Full Frame Insert Replacement Units.

The manufactures that have been mentioned, namely Andersen (fiber resin) and Pella (extruded vinyl I believe) are good products and are unavailable to contractors unless through programs. Good products but come with a very high price tag. We use a manufacture out of Vandergrift PA for our vinly full frame insert replacements (Kensington Windows) that manufacture a very nice product that preforms very well. There are many manufactures of high quality vinyl products out there and I would suggest that you avoid the cheap alternatives. You need to make a decision as to whether you are looking for a "permanent" replacement or a temporary solution. The "lifetime" warranty should be 20 years glass (internal condensation) 20 years frame and sash components, 10 yrs hardware. The term lifetime needs to be taken with a grain of salt.

Being in the same climate area as us, besides the thermal properties of frame and sash etc. The most important element is the glass pack. Should be at least Low-E Argon filled. The whole notion of "unbreakable" glass is laughable unless they are referring to Laminated glass. Even tempered glazing is very breakable. It just will shatter in a safe way.

As far as pricing goes, a typical size double hung opening replacement would average between $550 and $600 and that would include a custom aluminum wrap to the exterior. We are unlike some of the other remodel contractors in town that will start much higher than that and drop there price if pushed until they get down to that mark. We dont mess with drops and just cut to the chase.

Others have mentioned $200/opening but Im not sure of a few things. Are you saying that $200 will get you the window or will it get you the window installed?

If its $200 installed with a exterior wrap, I suggest you really analize what you are going to get for your investment.

RC

schwarcw

RC,

Welcome to Club Polk! You first post is about windows That's cool! Glad to have you. What about the wood windows? They are available to contractors. what is you experience with these? Also, since I have large casement windows, one contractor pointed out that vinyl might be a concern when the window is open. Because the weight of the window and how the weight on the hardware and subsequently the vinyl is a concern vs wood. He felt the wood would be a better choice because it may be better weight bearing than the vinyl. His point was the vinyl has a lower yield because of the material flexability.

Also, should vinyl window have interior steel support (framing)? Should the insulation be foam filled or fixed inserts?

One vendor showed me a "double" thickness glass. Is there a specified thickness I should be looking for?

Carl

doucanoe

Thanks for the welcome Carl,

Wood windows are available to us to be sure. We use them on remodel projects where the homeowner insists on a wood interior and the budget will allow. Typically, the units are extruded aluminum clad to the exterior with unfinished wood (pine/fir) to the interior. These can be stained or painted to suit the homeowner’s needs. They can be (and usually are) as efficient as a quality vinyl unit and with some manufactures (Marvin/ WeatherShield) can be ordered in custom sizes for retrofitting. The drawbacks are that they usually are much more expensive windows to start with and there are additional costs to stain finish or paint the interiors. Also there is a maintenance feature to them seeing as how they need to be refinished periodically. The exterior AL. cladding should not need to be painted throughout the life of the window so it would be considered very low maintenance with the exception if the interior.

When casement windows get to large in width and height, sometimes wood units are a better choice because of their ability to carry the extra sash weight. This isn’t always the case though. You would need to check with the particular manufacture to see how large they can make a casement unit before they might prematurely fail. A good manufacture, whether it be wood or vinyl should be able to provide you with testing data that indicates how much weight the sash/frame and hardware can handle without stress.

Structural Metal – Most manufactures of quality vinyl windows don’t use structural steel or aluminum in their products. The sash and frame extrusions should be multi- chambered for strength and insulation ability with fusion welded corners. Even metal corner keys are usually eliminated with these designs and are not needed. There are exceptions however. Sometimes structural metal mullions are necessary dependent on wind loading for multiple units that will be installed several stories high or required for Hurricane areas...........

doucanoe

We use units that are foam filled for its increased insulation value. “Slip-in” polystyrene is not as desirable in my opinion because there is an opportunity for voids that can reduce the thermal performance of the unit overall. When reviewing testing data for any window, keep in mind that there is no uniform accepted method of testing required. Possibly center of glass or more preferred unit performance testing. The window is only as good as its weakest link, high infiltration caused by poor weather-stripping can greatly reduce the windows overall performance. You can use the best glass pac in the world but if the window leaks air around the sashes in doesn’t help you much.

Double strength glass (laminated) is usually used for breakage protection and more so for sound transfer reduction. Say you live by the airport and the noise is driving you crazy, the use of laminated glazing can help out considerably. I would say that if sound reduction is not a huge concern and safety is not an issue, then laminated might be overkill. Once again, hurricane areas might require laminated glazing for safety reasons.

My standard offering in glass is ¾” overall (1/8” glass x ½” spacer / 1/8” glass) with low-e soft coat and argon filled. This gives the glazing system a R-value of 4.0 and a U value of .25

Now that I have bored everyone to death, lets get down to down to business. I’m a tube guy, how about you?

RC

schwarcw

Hi RC!

Thanks for all the great information. This is very useful to me. Your post and others gave me more insight on what to look for. I will continue to post as I receive more information. I'm going to make a decision next week.

Glad to hear about your tubes! Tell us more about your system and listening pleasures.

I'm currently a solid state guy. But I am in the market for a tube CDP. I'm going to Boston later this month and I hope to hear a few while I'm up there. I also have a friend at work who has an Ah! Tajoe. I'm hoping to listen to that next week or when I return. I am going to jump on a tube CDP in July.

I'm a Polk junkie:D I have three sets of SDA's: SRS 2.3's. SDA-2's and CRS's. I also have a set of original Monitor 7's, RTi-28's and a CSi-40. I'm using a Marantz Receiver, a Parasound Halo A-21 plugged into the front preouts of the receiver to drive the 2.3's.

I also collect vintage Marantz components. I have the three flagship model separates from the '70's the 150 tuner, 3800 preamp stereo console, a 510M power amp, 5025B cassette player and a 6300 turntable. I also have a couple of Marantz receivers. I use this sytem in my workshop area. Always something to fix or play with:D

Carl

markmarc

Personally, of all the top brands (Pella, Jeld-Wen, Anderson) I'd go Anderson. I like how they share the profits with their employees, it gives them a tremendous quality-control advantage, and virtually zero turnover. I've heard over the years that the average yearly profit-sharing bonus is $25K per factory worker.

doucanoe

Well Carl, I haven'y owned a pair of Polk speakers for some time. Had a pair of Monitor 10's back in the day that I liked quite a bit though. At the moment, Im running EV SP15's and ALtec 291 or 288 compression drivers with a active x-over. All driven by Pilot SA-232's.

Im a recovered rocker now listening to Jazz,Classical and Blues mostly on vinyl. I really need to start looking for a new CD deck though. I am running a Denon DCD 2560 at the moment. It's a pretty good one actually but something a little more up to date technology wise would be nice. Thats why I was here actually. I wanted to see what you guys were running for CD or SACD.

RC

schwarcw

Hi RC!

Check out the "Electronics" threads in the Forums. You can also use the search feature. A lot of SACD supporters here. Most of them are two channel but some like the multi channel formats. The Jolida, Ah! Tjoeb, Rotel-1072, Cambridge, Musical Fidelity and many others have been discussed here in the forums. There are also a lot of folks using external DACs. Benchmark, Bel Canto, Meridian, etc all have been discussed at some point in the threads.

Here is some recent discussion on tube CDPs: http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40933&highlight=Tube+CDP

What kind of player are you interested in? What's your budget?

Carl

schwarcw

markmarc wrote:

Personally, of all the top brands (Pella, Jeld-Wen, Anderson) I'd go Anderson. I like how they share the profits with their employees, it gives them a tremendous quality-control advantage, and virtually zero turnover. I've heard over the years that the average yearly profit-sharing bonus is $25K per factory worker.

Interesting. I had the Anderson Renewal people over about two weeks ago. Their renewal window are made from the fiberglass and wood waste particles from the windows they manufacture. They take the wood and fiberglass, mis it with some resin and form the "Fiberex" I think it's called. I think it's cool that they recycle scrap materials.

Anyways the woman comes over my house, takes measurements, tells me about the product, shows us the sales literature, etc. She told me she had to talk with some of her technical people at the factory for some specifics about my application, but she would fax me a quote within an hour. She has my cell phone number, my home number, my work number and my FAX number. Not to mention my address. I never heard from her again!

If their business is great, more power to them. But, I'm not going to chase sales people to buy there product. I've got other options!

carl

doucanoe

Im not sure about what im looking for yet but It might be the Rotel 1072 now that you mention it. I have also been looking at a nice Arcam from a local audio joint. 2-channel for sure and am more interested in CD playback and not SACD when its all said and done. I will have to look over at the electronics forum again.

By the way, I only have one Marantz piece at the moment but its a nice one. Its a 2275 in a teak cabinet. Need's a couple of lamps and a deoxit going over but it sounds great. Im not a big receiver guy but I have always been a sucker for a pretty Marantz.

RC

petrym

We did a complete window replacement in 2001 using triple-pane vinyl-clad low-e argon-filled Thermal Gard windows. They have done a superb job of reducing outside noise and saving on natural gas. We've saved an average 23.5% per year on gas usage since switching. The windows were expensive since they included two full-sized patio doors (1st floor and walkout basement), 4 casements (front of house, 1st floor), 6 double hungs (back of house 2nd floor, kitchen, and basement) and three sliders (front of house, second floor and kitchen), and 1 plain panel (front of house between a set of casements). We heartily recommend them.