RTI 12's and Reciever question (yes, another one)

LifePincher

I've read in this forum and others that you definately need a seperate amp if you want the best sound these speakers provide.

My question though is......

I currently own an Onkyo tx-sr502 and am thinking about upgrading to an Onkyo tx-sr703........ Will I see any noticable improvement in sound quality in upgrading? I want cleaner sound and I usually don't crank these up past 45-50.

Another question.......

If I were to buy "just" a reciever with no seperate amp, which one could I skim by with, without spending 2k+? Not getting the most out of my speakers but a little above halfway decent.


Panasonic 50" plasma 50px50u
Onkyo 502
Polk RTI 12's
Polk FXI 3's
Polk CSI 3
Sony dvd/vcr combo (cheapy)
JVC 200 disc cd player (9 years old)
Xbox

Zen Dragon

LifePincher wrote:

My question though is......

I currently own an Onkyo tx-sr502 and am thinking about upgrading to an Onkyo tx-sr703........ Will I see any noticable improvement in sound quality in upgrading? I want cleaner sound and I usually don't crank these up past 45-50.

You will likely get better sound as it is a newer product with more power. You will not get the kind of difference in sound you would get with a separate amplifier.
Think of it like your speakers are a BMW and your receiver/amplifier is the gas. Your Onkyo is like ARCO regular. It meets all the minimum requirements to run the vehicle, but you will never get the performance of a premium high octane gas.
Your current receiver by the way has no option to run pre-outs to a separate amplifier.

LifePincher wrote:

Another question.......

If I were to buy "just" a reciever with no seperate amp, which one could I skim by with, without spending 2k+? Not getting the most out of my speakers but a little above halfway decent.

Ideally you want a mid line receiver with pre-outs that can be run to a separate amp. I'd look to spend the minimum on a receiver with the features you like and spend the rest on a used amp 300-400 dollars should do for a used amp.
If you are completely locked on an AVR receiver only, then Denon, Harmon Kardon, and Marantz are all solid units, but none of them will quite match the quality separate amp for driving your RTI-12's

LifePincher

Ok, that's the first step I suppose before thinking of a seperate amp, buying a decent reciever that has pre-outs for one

Will one of these models suffice?
Onkyo tx-sr703 ($799. retail)
Onkyo tx-sr803 ($999. retail)
Denon AVR-2807 ($1,100. retail)

I can get them on ebay new/sealed/shipped (not refubished) for around.....
Onkyo 703-- $600.
Onkyo 803-- $775. (5 watts more than 703)
Denon-- $850. (worth the extra money over Onkyo?)


Any reason not to go the Ebay route?

Zen Dragon

I prefer the build quality of the Denon. I have not heard the Onkyo THX certified units. All these units have extensive pre-out options and lots of features, Both the AVR 2807, and the Onkyo 803 include HDMI switching which is nice if you wish to go with a high def TV in the future.
You may want to find a retailer who carries all of them and give them a listen to see which sounds better to you.
As to EBAY purchases
- make sure the seller is reputable
- make sure they are an autorized dealer and can offer either the mfr warranty, or a similiar one of their own in writing.

LifePincher

Zen Dragon wrote:

I prefer the build quality of the Denon. I have not heard the Onkyo THX certified units. All these units have extensive pre-out options and lots of features, Both the AVR 2807, and the Onkyo 803 include HDMI switching which is nice if you wish to go with a high def TV in the future.
You may want to find a retailer who carries all of them and give them a listen to see which sounds better to you.
As to EBAY purchases
- make sure the seller is reputable
- make sure they are an autorized dealer and can offer either the mfr warranty, or a similiar one of their own in writing.

Ok, after I buy one of the above models, will two of these amps be good enough for the RTI 12's?
Outlaw Model 2200 M-Block Amp
http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/2200.html
EDIT: Wholy crapola, I just seen the price of these! (about $325. each)


How about this Onkyo Amp M-82 for $299. ? (100x2)
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-GX6U1r8PUL8/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?g=10450&I=580M282

Thanks again for all the info.

Zen Dragon

In your price range of $300 you are not going to find the amp you need new. The Onkyo is underpowered for the RTi-12's. You want an amp that can drive high current.
There are many posts in the forums about amplifiers and what people use. Try to get in the 200W and above into 8 ohms if possible.
Here is a non inclusive list of good brands that can be found used in no particular order.
Carver
B&K
Adcom
Outlaw
Parasound
NAD
Rotel

LifePincher

Zen Dragon wrote:

In your price range of $300 you are not going to find the amp you need new. The Onkyo is underpowered for the RTi-12's. You want an amp that can drive high current.
There are many posts in the forums about amplifiers and what people use. Try to get in the 200W and above into 8 ohms if possible.
Here is a non inclusive list of good brands that can be found used in no particular order.
Carver
B&K
Adcom
Outlaw
Parasound
NAD
Rotel

How about used on EBAY? $300. - $500.? Can you give a recommendation on an exact mdl/brand? If not, I'll research later when I have a reciever that can handle an amp



Ok, one more thing. On a scale from 1-10 (10 being best), score each of the below questions (sound quality wise). This will give me an idea on where I'm going with this.

1--- Onkyo 502 Reciever/Rti 12's?
2--- If I bought the Onkyo 703?
3--- If I added the Onkyo M-82 amp (100x2) to the 703?
4--- If I spent $500. on a decent used amp and paired it with the 703?

Zen Dragon

There are multiple Adcom GFA-555II's on ebay at the moment. The multiple listings may keep the price down. This amp has the power you need. Some have said they can be a bit bright or harsh. I have never used this amp so can not comment on the sound from experience.
Search ebay to see the others.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ADCOM-GFA-555-II-2-HIGH-CRNT-AMP-STEREO-POWER-AMPLIFIER_W0QQitemZ9716681497QQcategoryZ71543QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Zen Dragon

If you are willing to go into the 400-500 dollar range you can look at the B&K, Rotel, Parasound, Carver, outlaw stuff. Slightly better units IMO.

Zen Dragon

LifePincher wrote:

Ok, one more thing. On a scale from 1-10 (10 being best), score each of the below questions (sound quality wise). This will give me an idea on where I'm going with this.

1--- Onkyo 502 Reciever/Rti 12's?
2--- If I bought the Onkyo 703?
3--- If I added the Onkyo M-82 amp (100x2) to the 703?
4--- If I spent $500. on a decent used amp and paired it with the 703?

I have never listened to the Onkyo gear. I can tell you this, you are throwing money away if you put the Onkyo M-82 amp at 100W on top of the 703 which is 100W anyway. Minimal improvement.
There will be no comparison to putting a good high current amp on those speakers. They open up, play louder and fuller. Much more air in the sound.
There are 3 other interesting amps on Ebay at the moment. The Parasound HCA-1200 and 1500's. Could stay in the 4-500 range.
http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?sofocus=bs&sbrftog=1&fcl=3&catref=C6&from=R10&satitle=parasound&sacat=71542%26catref%3DC6&bs=Search&fsop=1%26fsoo%3D1&coaction=compare&copagenum=1&coentrypage=search&sargn=-1%26saslc%3D2&sadis=200&fpos=98037&ftrt=1&ftrv=1&saprclo=&saprchi=

Ultimately your decision. Just stay away from the Onkyo amp on top of the Onkyo AVR

GaryZ06

I have the RTi12's(mains)....CSi5(center) and use 3 Outlaw monobocks for them.They have no problem running them.When I ran them with my Pioneer 1014 it handled it fine.

Ron Temple

I like the Pio 1014/15 as a pre/pro or an HK 435 refurbed from HarmanAudio. They both have pre-outs, can get you started while you look around for separate amps. Both are head and shoulders above the Onkyo models for guts and brains and are less than $500.

LifePincher

Well thanks guys for all the information. I'll have to look into all the diff. amps after I get an amp capable reciever


I still want to know though, how much of a boost would I get by upgrading from an Onkyo 502 to an Onkyo 703? Put an approximate %. Just curious.

5%?
10%?
15%?
75%?

You get the idea.

jegs

Sell the 12's put some 4's or 6's on some nice stands and get a sub.

danger boy

LifePincher wrote:

I still want to know though, how much of a boost would I get by upgrading from an Onkyo 502 to an Onkyo 703? Put an approximate %. Just curious.

5%?
10%?
15%?
75%?

You get the idea.

I would say about a 10% boost in performance. which isn't much really. the 703 is beefier and has better build quality to it. I used a Marantz 70wpc receiver for a few years before I added external 125wpc amps. The amps made a big differnece in sound quality. (some people will say that an external 125wpc amp ain't much.. but it's better than 70wpc from a receiver)

I hope to never run speakers off a receiver without an amp ever again.

LifePincher

jegs wrote:

Sell the 12's put some 4's or 6's on some nice stands and get a sub.

Yea', the 6's would look grand with my 50" panasonic plasma :rolleyes:

Sell my 12's and get smaller speakers? I think not. You are kidding, right?
I'd lose alot of money on the 12's if I sold them. I may need more power to push the 12's but I'd rather spend that toward an amp and the new Onkyo 703 instead of selling my 12's and buying 6's. You sure you're not smoking Dandelion weed, Catnip or Oregano?


danger boy

---

Just 10%? That's it, really? I was thinking 20% but I'm fairly new to reciever ramblings I used to think JVC was KING **LMAO**

GaryZ06

LifePincher wrote:

Yea', the 6's would look grand with my 50" panasonic plasma :rolleyes:

Sell my 12's and get smaller speakers? I think not. You are kidding, right?
I'd lose alot of money on the 12's if I sold them. I may need more power to push the 12's but I'd rather spend that toward an amp and the new Onkyo 703 instead of selling my 12's and buying 6's. You sure you're not smoking Dandelion weed, Catnip or Oregano?


danger boy

---

Just 10%? That's it, really? I was thinking 20% but I'm fairly new to reciever ramblings I used to think JVC was KING **LMAO**

12's and a 50" Panasonic plasma look killer to me

LifePincher

Halfway decent setup. Upgrading my reciever to accomadate my new amp since my current reciever does'nt have pre-outs for one

Panasonic 50" plasma (50px50u) I forget exact mdl. but it sounds correct.
Onkyo 502 (upgrading to the 703 and an added amp soon)
Polk Rti 12's (mains) (MORE POWER!!!!!..... I'm givin' her all she's got captain!
Polk CSI 3 (center)
Polk Fxi 3's (rear surrounds)
Sub (no need for one at the moment) I use the old Polk 202 in the pic, in the computer room with my Infinity Primus 150's and cheapy Sony str-de685 reviever (100x5). Sounds alot better than all these CRAP computer type speakers out there. OooohRAH!


Here's an older pic about 3 months ago on the first day I moved into my new house. Since the move, I've added dvd shelving/cases on either side of the speakers and a Bello component stand to the right of the Bello tv stand to hold my vcr/dvd player, cd player and x-box. Cables/wires are also nice and tidey now. Rear surround wires were run under the house to the back of the reciever. I also moved the mains closer toward the tv now. I'll get a new pic of it soon.

XJRGUY

LifePincher wrote:

Yea', the 6's would look grand with my 50" panasonic plasma :rolleyes:

Sell my 12's and get smaller speakers? I think not. You are kidding, right?
I'd lose alot of money on the 12's if I sold them. I may need more power to push the 12's but I'd rather spend that toward an amp and the new Onkyo 703 instead of selling my 12's and buying 6's. You sure you're not smoking Dandelion weed, Catnip or Oregano?


danger boy

---

Just 10%? That's it, really? I was thinking 20% but I'm fairly new to reciever ramblings I used to think JVC was KING **LMAO**

Dude,

Definitely get a decent amp for these speakers.

I used to run my Sony ES STR-DA777ES (which is a very decent amp) It sounded good, or so I thought in 2 channel mode. When I bought my two amps and pumped up to 600 Watts per channel into those RTi12's things really started to sound different.

I even noticed a difference at low listening levels.

External amplification DOES make a difference, BIG TIME! I was very skeptical at first, because I thought my legendary 777ES was the cats ****, but I can't begin to describe the change.

ok, its the difference between "good" sex and MINDBLOWING, BODY NUMBING INTERCOURSE!

XJRGUY

ivansfo

Definitely go with a separate high current power amp. With the Onkyo 703, I think you will get a 10-20% in performance increase. But you'll be far away from bringing out the true potential of your RTi12s.

I say this because I have the Onkyo 701 which is esentially has the same power but with older video switching features. I felt this wasn't enough to drive a set of RTi8 which I had for a short time.

LifePincher

I will look into a seperate amp after I purchase the new Onkyo 703.

What happened to my pic? Oh yea', I deleted it in place of this new one I forgot to post **LOL**