turntable education

danger boy

The Outlaw Audio 990 pre amp i just got has a phono input.. now i want to dabble in vinyl. but i need a turntable.

Back in the day, i never got into turntables beyond the Radio Shack and JC Penny ones. So needless to say, i'm lost. what basics should I look for when looking locally for a TT? Brandwise, stylus, and features such as direct drive or belt drive?

Here are my guidelines:

1. must be used
2. must be cheap
3. under $50

* please don't suggest a $2500 Rega or i'll track you down and kick you in the huevos. :eek:

have a nice day!

cmy330go

Man, you are really killin' me with the under $50 stipulation. Usually you are only going to find cheap 1980's tables for that kinda $$ like Panasonic, Yamaha, Sony, Pioneer, etc... About your only real hope is to find a CP member looking to unload a good old Dual or Thornes cheap.

If you could somehow manage $300 it would open up a world of choices.

Good luck with the hunt!
Dave

danger boy

thanks Dave, but this is just to listen to the few LP's i currently have.. i don't want to delve into vinyl as deep as say I would if I were looking for new speakers or a good amp.

There must be some decent tables from yesteryear that will still sound ok for a weekend warrior vinyl listener like me. A few Technics are on Ebay right now local to me.

If one were investing in a turntable, where is the cost factor? Is it the platter or the stylus or arm?

Tour2ma

The Dual 1249 is one I'd look at for that kind of coinage. I've a few old auctions saved that were around that figure, but then there's S&H to consider.

Also, on occasion an AR XA goes that low, as does the AR XB as well (and maybe even more often). But again S&H...

Not even mentioning the you'll likely have to buy a new stylus, if not a cartridge.

Your best bet is do some local legwork... thrift stores, maybe a pawn shop, and swap sheet reading.

SCompRacer

http://seattle.craigslist.org/ele/153011935.html
http://seattle.craigslist.org/ele/152919045.html
http://seattle.craigslist.org/ele/152549204.html

Some of these, the asking price is slightly or largely over your budget but they are in your neck of the woods.

EDIT:
If you can be happy with OK listening, you'll be fine with an inexpensive table. I thought I could be happy with a grunt table, but every time I listen to it, I get critical and want a better one.

TroyD

IMHO, for that kind of investment....don't bother. Take the fifty bucks and buy the CD versions.

Not to be a dick, but fifty bucks gets you nothing.

BDT

Tour2ma

Hey dick!

Your vinyl road back started with an XA, which can be had in that price neighborhood with a little luck. Not end-all-be-all, but a start... and a listenable one at that.

danger boy

$50 may not get me much..but $25 hopefully will. ha ha ha.

I have a guy who has a Sherwood ST903 linear tracking TT he's going to sell me if things check out tonight.

Like I said.. i'm not looking for anything high end.. just entry level listenable tunes, to play around with some vinyl i have.

Would i love a Thorens or Rega? Hell yeah, but i don't want to get into this that deeply right now. Maybe later, but not at this time.

SCompRacer

Thats kewl, hope things go well for you. Local for demo and pickup is good when it comes to turntables. Lots of bad things can happen when they are shipped without proper packing.

TroyD

Tour2ma wrote:

Hey dick!

Your vinyl road back started with an XA, which can be had in that price neighborhood with a little luck. Not end-all-be-all, but a start... and a listenable one at that.

Very VERY true. It's a good start, however, a working AR XA for less than 50? I mean, they are THERE but it's not a gimmie. Hell, a decent record brush is going to run 20 bucks.

I still have that AR nor am I likely to part with it.

BDT

schwarcw

Try and find one that you can listen to first. Make sure it's playing 33 1/3. Otherwise you may be throwing money away. The cartidge can cost as much or a lot more than the turntable itself. Shure is popular and makes reasonable cartridges and certain replacement stylus can be reasonable as well.

danger boy

this is what I picked up last night for $25 it's a Sherwood ST903 turntable from around 1982 linear tracking

Ok. as you you can all see it's no Dual or Thorens. But it fit my budget. Knowing full well this is only my first turntable in over 20 yrs. IN time i may find something better. I really only wanted to dabble in vinyl for nostalga reasons. not for any kind of critical listening.

So far.. i have to say that a few albums sound really good.. one from I think 1982 by Naked Eyes sounds really dynamic and good overall quality. I was surprised by it's openness.

While this one from Journey sounds very muddy. I have had to pan the treble all the way to the right to get any kind of listenable decent sound. I didn't have to do that with the Naked Eyes album.

Knowing again that this stylus and turntable are low fi, i can't expect to much. It's fun though.

Here are some pics. I do have one question.. what is the difference between MC and MM phono inputs? IT sounds best on the settings I have it on as you can see from the picture. I moved it to the right hand settings. and it sounds like crapola.

Oh yeah. for now.. this is not connected to the Outlaw 990 pre amp.. in the future it might be. It's connected to the Kenwood Basic C2 and the SDA's.

Tour2ma

TroyD wrote:

...a working AR XA for less than 50? I mean, they are THERE but it's not a gimmie. Hell, a decent record brush is going to run 20 bucks.

I still have that AR nor am I likely to part with it.

You forget, I know what you "paid" for your nearly pristine XA and a NOS Watts preener...

Don't blame you... I'm keeping a couple myself...
Aside: Did you ever tighten up it's tonearm wand? There is, or there should be, a small set screw at the underside of where it enters the brass pivot assembly.

db,
Looks pristine. Congrats...

I've never owned a linear tracker, but always wanted to for grins. While it's the ideal design from a tracking angle standpoint, the execution is so damn that nothing short of some very high (and I mean very HIGH) $$$ units never quite nailed it.

The only potential issue with yours, and many, many other, Linear trackers, is their use of P-mount cartridges. Very limited selection out there, the best of which only fall in the OK category.

But your new Sherwood is a start, so enjoy...

Tour2ma

danger boy wrote:

...one from I think 1982 by Naked Eyes sounds really dynamic and good overall quality. ...one from Journey sounds very muddy. I have had to pan the treble all the way to the right to get any kind of listenable decent sound.

what is the difference between MC and MM phono inputs? IT sounds best on the settings I have it on as you can see from the picture. I moved it to the right hand settings. and it sounds like crapola. ... It's connected to the Kenwood Basic C2 and the SDA's.

First MM (Moving Magnet) vs MC (Moving Coil)... These are the two main catagories of modern phono cartridges. 99.99999% sure that yours is a MM. Your TT accepts what is called a "P-mount" cartridge. I know of no P-mount MC's. P-mounts became popular with the casual vinyl listener, because many adjustments are eliminated. P-mounts are shunned by other because many adjustments are eliminated... and we love to mess with shite... The other downside of P-mounts is that relatively few cartridge options are available, and what are, are modest quality at best.

Cartridges are electromechanical devices turning motion into electrical energy. Electricity is generating by moving a magnetic field relative to a coil of wire. Either can be moved, the magnet (MM) or the coil of wire (MC). MM cartridges are more common and generally produce a higher output, i.e., more electricity. Although there are some "high-output" MC's, generally they are much lower output and tend to lie towards the "esoteric" end of the cartridge spectrum.

In either case the output we are talking about a cartridge generating is in the millivolt (mV) range, usually 12 mV or so for a MM, and 1 mV or so for MC. this low output is why it is necessary to have phono-pre to step this weak signal up to normal pre-amp input levels of 1 to 2 V. The lower MC output is why it requires even more amplification in the phono section. Not all phono-pre's include MC capability.

There a couple causes of "muddy sounding vinyl.

First off there dirt, or "groove grundge", but the pictures LP (the Journey?) looks 'clean' so wouldn't think this is the cause. Were the surface to appear dull, a good cleaning would be in order.

Second, there's prior wear. I think this is your most likely cause because:
the Naked Eyes LP sounded fine; and you had to boost the treble to hear HF info on the Journey LP. Prior wear cannot be necessarily be seen, although in extreme cases the surface may dull. The primary target of LP wear is the groove's high frequency info, the smallest "peaks and valleys" in the groove. In a worn LP, these peaks have been worn away or sheared off. Often wear is also accompanied by a "static" like quality during playback. Wear can occcur to either or both sides of the groove, so it may sound either equally bad in both channels, or be more pronounced in one.

LP wear is determined by how well the stylus tracks the groove. Several variables combine to determine how well a stylus tracks the groove. Be off in any any any one or combinations of more than one, and mistracking results. Tracking variables include:

• Stylus condition - a worn stylus cannot properly "rest" in the groove; I assume the one you have came with the TT; I suggest you take the stylus to a local audio dealer that has a microscope to assess its condition.
• Tracking force - less is not always better; too little and the LF info will bounce the stylus around in the groove during the louder passages; too much and you wear the LP and stylus.
• Tracking angle - pivoting tome arms are generaly positioned to set the stylus in the groove at the perfect tangent in the middle of an LP side; they vary slightly everywhere else; linear trackers can be at the perfect angle everywhere or they can be at the wrong angle everywhere; so long as you use a cartridge of the right length, this is not a concern for you.
• Stylus overhang - this relates to my above comment on stylus length, and is critical to your choice of a replacement cartridge; there may be an adjustment on your TT for this.
• Stylus angle part one (AKA vertical tracking angle or VTA) - all cartridges have an ideal angle so that their stylus angle is perpendicular to the surface of an LP; many, but not all, tonearms include an adjustment for the height of the pivot; on linear trackers I believe the height of the rail the head travels may be adjustable, but as in the case of pivoting arms, not all are.
• Stylus angle part deaux - standard cartridges are mounted to a headshell using two screws; often the angle of the cartridge relative to the headshell is a variable; a misalignment here can throw off even the best tonearm's tracking angle (see above); P-,mount cartirdges such as you have, eliminate this variable; so long as a P-mount is firmly in place, it should establish the proper angle.
• Antiskate - almost all tonearms include this adjustable feature (the AR XA is one example that does not), but this is where a linear tracker's, main design challenge arises; as any tone arm tracks inward, centripetal force tries to pull it in faster than the groove sprials in; left unchecked the result would be unequal pressure on the two-sides of the groove; tone arms compensate for this by applying a small force that pulls the arm towards the outer edge of the LP; there almost certainly is an adjustment for this on your TT.
• Cleanliness - dirt is not uniform so it can make the stylus move in unintended directions causes damage; it can also accumulate on the tip of a stylus and be drug through the groove causing damage.

If you do not have a manual, I suggest you look for one. If the previous owner is sure his is lost, suggest you start by contacting Sherwood. There are aloso a few internent manual sources, but Google turned up nada on a specific search for the ST-903.

Your old Kenwood C2 appears to have more than normal tweaking capability for cartridges. Not guaranteed to have the particulats for your P-mount, but look here to see if they have your's covered. If they do, just set the C2's settings to the values they list.

Hey... no one said vinyl was easy... just that it's worth the trouble.

reeltrouble1

Did you read all that DB!!! Its all good. The cliff notes!!! Use the MM on 47 just like you have it, another example of using your ears.

Rest assured BDT has shared his Watts preener good fortune.

RT1

OK now that you have the Sherwood, lets mention Rega, VPI, MMF, with a oh say Benz or Clearaudio cartride, so now you really going to be broke, you can always get a second job.

danger boy

Bruce,

Thanks for taking the time to write all that.. you've answered all my questions up to this point. It helps educate me and Ted too.

I pretty much guess that this Sherwood was very limited in what adjustments can be made to it. I also found out last night.. that when turned up to loud listening levels.. that any noise I made on the table when lifting the cover up, comes thru the sound I hear.. it's very sensitive to external interference from handeling.

Ted, maybe in the future a TT from the likes of Music Hall may be in order.. I can't even think that far ahead right now... but it certainly would be a goal to try and reach.

OK boys.. now I need a record cleaner... where to find on and which is a good one? All my vinyl has dust on them. I can see it... but I don't currently have any kind of cleaner for them.

Dennis Gardner

danger boy wrote:

OK boys.. now I need a record cleaner...

It has begun Al, you have descended into the vast crevice of vinyl related expenses. Hang for a long and expensive ride to vinyl nirvana.:D

I would simply get a good brush with washing liquid. Discwasher, Audioquest there are any number of ways to get surface dust removed.

If you find yourself really getting into recoids that sound better than you could ever imagine, you might want to invest in a liquid based cleaning system with vacuum. This is with the assumption that better turntables, better LPs etc. are on that path.

schwarcw

Now I remember why I was happy to abandon my LPs when CDs came out. Too many moving parts and complexities with vinyl.

However, I'm also comtemplating getting back into the vinyl for ****$ and giggles. Nice pickup Danger Boy!

And Tour that was a great writeup!! Kudos for sure, I have forgotten a lot of that stuff!

I always liked the discWasher. I've not tried any of the new vacuum cleaner rigs.

Carl

Tour2ma

Ted, would love to take credit, but I copied most of it out of the audio section of the Federal Penitentiary Handbook.

Gracias, guys... as the saying goes, you don't know what you know until you try to educate someone else. I was firing off synapses that had been idle for a lo-o-o-o-ng time. So db, your question may have delayed my date with alzheimers.... So I should thank you.

michael_w

Great responses guys. I've been quitely lurking and learning a lot.

I have a question myself. How long does vinyl usually last before it starts to wear enough to notice? I suppose it depends on how well you have the tt setup?

Tour2ma

Bingo on the set up...

I honestly don't think that properly cared for vinyl has a limit. At least I cannot remember ever reading that it has and while I've ruined a few LP's in my day, I have many more that sound as good today as they did freah out of the sleeve. MFSL states that the first few plays actually improve the sound of their pressings.

EDIT: On the other hand improperly set up, a styus can hurt vinyl in only one or two plays...
Case in point, Shure used to include a test LP with the purchase of their TOTL, "V" series cartridges. They included tracks for phase check, and "other stuff". One of the "other stuff" tracks was a trackability test that was a series of the same warble tone at increasing amplitude (volume). In this test you listen for distortion in one or both channels, make pressure and or anti-skate adjustments, and repeat. What you quickly find is that:
1. you can never track them all; and
2. once you've seriously mistracked a segment once or twice, it's shot, and will sound distorted no matter what you do adjustment-wise.
Ultimately their test record was not a very useful tool.

Stylii on the other hand do have a limited life expectency. Even a dialed-in stylus will wear and a replacement should be sought at around 2000 hours (your mileage may vary). Some folks play it safer around 1000.

While cartridges themselves can tire, they are very, very long lived.

An any case, where MM's are involved normally a stylus rotation ends up being set. New, low hour is used on the pristine stuff, the recently replaced on the less than pristrine, the oldest for the grundgy old 45's, 78's, etc.

For MC's where stylii aren't user replaced, but sent away to the MFG for "re-tipping", a rotation can also be set, but is not as common. Much cheaper to retip an old fav, than buy a new one. If a rotation is set, however, it involves spare headshells in the rotation. obviously a headshell rotation is a MM option as well.