My 2nd Afternoon @ Spearit Sound

cfrizz

I went to listen to the Rotel RB 1092 but it wasn’t in stock.

But since I was there, I told Leland that I was also considering new speakers. I gave him the same parameters that I gave to you guys. He had me listen to these in the following order:

http://www.dali.dk/int/page191.aspx?sub=213&prod=79 The Ikon 7

http://www.bwspeakers.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/products.models/label/MODEL%20703 B & W 703

http://thielaudio.com/THIEL_Site05/Pages/models/Current_Models/cs1_6/cs1_6nws.html Thiel CS1.6

Leland hooked up the Ikon gave me the literature on it and walked away. I put in my trusty Carly Simon Live @ the Vineyard concert & started reading. All of a sudden my head popped up because instead of hearing Anticipation I heard… Anticcccccccssssssssipatiiiiiiiiooooooon! WTH?????

I listened to the other 2 songs that I wanted to hear & it was the same thing sibilance up the wazoo!

I also brought along Eric Clapton’s Unplugged CD. Tears In Heaven was practically painful!

Next I put in Virgil Fox’s Heavy Organ & listened to In The Gig Fugue. It sounded great! & the woofers really shined when the foot pedals kicked in!

I went and got Leland & told him what I was hearing & could I listen to another speaker just to make sure since I don’t hear any of this on my Polks! He hooked up the B & W’s. While I could still hear the sibilance, it was not enough that if I wasn’t listening for it, I wouldn’t have really noticed it.

The same was true of the Thiel.

Leland told me that these 3 speakers are some of the best made!

The instrumentals are great, but I can’t deal with the sibilance. And I’m not interested in any speaker that is going to make 2 of my favorite cd’s unlistenable!

The other thing about the Ikon is it was cheaply made & it showed. It’s supposed to weigh 50lbs but it didn’t feel like it. And it costs well over $2000.00!

I went 2 doors up the street to Tweeter. I went into the speaker room, figured out their wall panel to input the LSI 9’s which on 29” stands come up as high as the 15’s. and listened some more.

It was running through the Denon 3806. I put the volume @ -40, then up to -30 & finally up to –20! That’s what it took to get to my normal listening level of –40! (with my speakers powered by my amp)

They sounded great, no “attention drawing” sibilance. Of course that might change if they were powered correctly but I doubt it.

So in conclusion, This was a very informative afternoon. If these 3 speakers represent accuracy, I will take the beauty of the Polks any day of the week.

Cathy

dorokusai

We saw the Ikon series at CES but they weren't hooked up. They are mass market Dali intended for the HT crowd.

I like the Thiel, and you can ask DAGLJAM about his speakers. They are famous for low impedence 4ohm and under...so think about power down the road. I would like to have a pair of the big boys at some point.

F the B&W, they're common and nothing special.

Early B.

I don't know about the CDs you were listening to or even if this comment applies directly to the experience you had today, but as you go up the line in terms of speaker quality, you'll quickly learn which CDs in your collection were marginally mastered, especially those musical groups that appeal to the mass market. This afternoon I purged several CDs from my collection because they simply don't sound very well anymore due to a recent speaker upgrade. The faults in the CDs have become more obvious.

The other comment is that if you really want to get your listen on, you gotta evaluate speakers in your room on your gear. Otherwise, it's apples and oranges. Next time, take a pair home with you. Who knows -- those Dalis may sound very different on your system.

cfrizz

Thanks Mark. My Parasound can handle the Thiels.

Joey_V

It might just be that the CD has flaws.... or it might just be that the Dali's supertweeter accentuates the sibilance you heard.

I still say, dont discount the new speakers you heard, keeping an open mind is always better than not. You took the time to get accustomed to the Polk LSi sound, dont you think it's only fair to do the same towards the BW and the Thiels?

cfrizz

I have kinda already come to that conclusion about the CDs Early. The next time I go back, I will be taking different music with me to see how that does.

However, the music I have is the music I like! And it sounds just fine on my Polks! I shouldn't have to find different music just so that is sounds good on my speakers.

But I will take newer released music or remastered cds & avoid live concert cds & see how it likes recorded music instead.

I wish I could test drive some at home, but lugging speakers around w/o a car is kinda difficult.

Early B. wrote:

I don't know about the CDs you were listening to or even if this comment applies directly to the experience you had today, but as you go up the line in terms of speaker quality, you'll quickly learn which CDs in your collection were marginally mastered, especially those musical groups that appeal to the mass market. This afternoon I purged several CDs from my collection because they simply don't sound very well anymore due to a recent speaker upgrade. The faults in the CDs have become more obvious.

The other comment is that if you really want to get your listen on, you gotta evaluate speakers in your room on your gear. Otherwise, it's apples and oranges. Next time, take a pair home with you. Who knows -- those Dalis may sound very different on your system.

cfrizz

Without a doubt it was the cd's Joey & I won't be bringing anymore live concert cd's with me when I go back!

Actually, I fell in love with the LSI's the moment I heard them!:D

But I will keep an open mind.

Joey_V wrote:

It might just be that the CD has flaws.... or it might just be that the Dali's supertweeter accentuates the sibilance you heard.

I still say, dont discount the new speakers you heard, keeping an open mind is always better than not. You took the time to get accustomed to the Polk LSi sound, dont you think it's only fair to do the same towards the BW and the Thiels?

Joey_V

cfrizz wrote:

Without a doubt it was the cd's Joey & I won't be bringing anymore live concert cd's with me when I go back!

Actually, I fell in love with the LSI's the moment I heard them!:D

But I will keep an open mind.

Cathy,

No doubt the LSi have their allure.. a certain allure that I cant exactly put my finger on. However, there are better speakers out there and I'm sure somewhere along the Thiel line, the BW line, or the Dali line may rest a speaker perfect for your next level upgrade.

Who knows...

But, I fully agree with you.... I mean, even with my ML Summits, I wouldnt mind a pair of the LSi9s just to keep that LSi nostalgia and signature sound pumping in my room.

heiney9

Early B. wrote:

I don't know about the CDs you were listening to or even if this comment applies directly to the experience you had today, but as you go up the line in terms of speaker quality, you'll quickly learn which CDs in your collection were marginally mastered, especially those musical groups that appeal to the mass market. This afternoon I purged several CDs from my collection because they simply don't sound very well anymore due to a recent speaker upgrade. The faults in the CDs have become more obvious.

The other comment is that if you really want to get your listen on, you gotta evaluate speakers in your room on your gear. Otherwise, it's apples and oranges. Next time, take a pair home with you. Who knows -- those Dalis may sound very different on your system.

This is something to consider, but the EC-Unplugged cd is simply awesome recording and should reveal any flaws in the chain. So if it was almost unlistenable then it wasn' the cd. I can't speak for Carly Simon or Virgil Fox. I used to have a few Virgil Fox records and always enjoyed those bass pedals .

Cathy, personally I think it's going to be really hard to do better than the Lsi's without spending a whole lot more $$$.

H9

dorokusai

cfrizz wrote:

Thanks Mark. My Parasound can handle the Thiels.

I'm well aware of what amplification you have, and didn't mention that because I had nothing else to do. Good luck.

cfrizz

Thank you dear! I'm going to need it!:D

dorokusai wrote:

I'm well aware of what amplification you have, and didn't mention that because I had nothing else to do. Good luck.

Early B.

cfrizz -- also keep in mind that getting better speakers will undoubtedly create a chain reaction effect -- you'll eventually want to upgrade everything else in your system to get a better sound. In fact, you really need a separate 2-channel system. You're gonna need a lotta cash money and since you're a cheapskate like me, you gotta be careful.;)

F1nut

You took the time to get accustomed to the Polk LSi sound, dont you think it's only fair to do the same towards the BW and the Thiels?

IMO, if one has to "get accustomed" to the sound of any piece of gear to enjoy it, it's not the right piece of gear.


I'm with H9 on the Unplugged cd, a very good recording and not the problem.

Edit: The sibilance issue could be from the cdp or other gear you were listening to.

Joey_V

F1nut wrote:

IMO, if one has to "get accustomed" to the sound of any piece of gear to enjoy it, it's not the right piece of gear.


I'm with H9 on the Unplugged cd, a very good recording and not the problem.

I'm not sure if I agree completely F1. Take for instance all the SVS guys who come in and say..."oh my other sub had so much more punch..."

First thing we say, "you're not used to the flat infrasonics the SVS gives out."

F1nut

I understand what you're saying, kinda like the folks that use tone controls and then learn how to listen without them and realize the sound is better that way.

What I was driving at is, for me at least, that when I listen to some gear for the first time, if it doesn't sound good to my ears right then and there, it isn't going to sound good later. It's that, you know it when you hear it deal.

cfrizz

Thank you Jesse for validating my reaction to the speakers. It's nice to know I'm not crazy!

I had Rotel equipment for everthing! Rotel DVD player, 200 watt amp, & processor!

F1nut wrote:

IMO, if one has to "get accustomed" to the sound of any piece of gear to enjoy it, it's not the right piece of gear.


I'm with H9 on the Unplugged cd, a very good recording and not the problem.

Edit: The sibilance issue could be from the cdp or other gear you were listening to.

cfrizz

Sorry Early, but that is not going to happen. I don't have any room for a 2nd 2-channel system. I also believe that it is possible to get good enough equipment to do both well.

Right now I'm kinda discouraged. I was looking through my cd's to find other more newly recorded music that I can take to test drive speakers. One option is Hell Freezes Over (oops that's a live recording). All of my other Eagles cd's are older possibly badly mastered although they sound outstanding on my Polks! Carpenters SACD/w redbook remastered cd section.

Right now I don't know what I'm going to do!:(

Early B. wrote:

cfrizz -- also keep in mind that getting better speakers will undoubtedly create a chain reaction effect -- you'll eventually want to upgrade everything else in your system to get a better sound. In fact, you really need a separate 2-channel system. You're gonna need a lotta cash money and since you're a cheapskate like me, you gotta be careful.;)

reeltrouble1

Very good Cathy, now, at Polkfest did'nt those 9's sound rather grand with that sweet tube gear!!!!!!!!!!

RT1

heiney9

cfrizz wrote:

Sorry Early, but that is not going to happen. I don't have any room for a 2nd 2-channel system. I also believe that it is possible to get good enough equipment to do both well.

Right now I'm kinda discouraged. I was looking through my cd's to find other more newly recorded music that I can take to test drive speakers. One option is Hell Freezes Over (oops that's a live recording). All of my other Eagles cd's are older possibly badly mastered although they sound outstanding on my Polks! Carpenters SACD/w redbook remastered cd section.

Right now I don't know what I'm going to do!:(

Cathy, go with recordings you know sound good on the Polks and especially stuff you are very familiar with. That atleast makes the playing field a little more level. Don't try to change your listening habits now or you'll never get a fix on new speakers. Stick with what you know music wise and if it doesn't sound right on the set-up you are listening to then atleast you are familiar with the music.

All systems are obviously going to sound different. Pick out things you like about your speakers and listen for those attributes in the new speakers (as much as you can in the showroom) Then pick out things you don't like about your speakers and listen for those improvements on the new speakers.

Example: I'm a big fan of Jewel's music but on certain songs her voice has a resonance at certain mid-range freqencies. I've narrowed it down to cabinet resonance which happens with a few female vocalists on my 11's. These songs are on my demo disk and when I look for new speaks I will be specifically looking at that particular problem.

I even went so far as to burn a demo cd of certain music that sounds great on my current system along with songs that could sound better during certain parts. I've made a crib note to take with me for a listening session.

Start with what you know about your current system and go from there.

Happy hunting.

H9

Early B.

cfrizz wrote:

Right now I'm kinda discouraged.

Right now I don't know what I'm going to do!:(

Don't worry, here's what you can do -- start all over with a clean slate. Get rid of any pre-conceived notions about your current setup. Imagine what you would like to have if you could build your entire dream system from scratch. Do not take $$ into account. Got it? OK, now look at your current gear and determine those components you absolutely will not get rid of. Then, look at your budget plus the proceeds from the sale of everything else, then rebuild. You may be surprised at the outcome.

I recently went through this exercise, sold most of my speakers, and built a much better 2-channel system and an HT system with money to spare. I never imagined that it could be done.

shack

cfrizz wrote:

However, the music I have is the music I like! And it sounds just fine on my Polks!

Right now I'm kinda discouraged.

Right now I don't know what I'm going to do!:(

I'm probably going to be cyberneticallty shot by many here on the forum...

I thought a simple quote from 'Bluto' Blutarsky, ie: "My advice to you is to start drinking heavily" might be appropriate...however...

My advice to you is to just enjoy the music.

mldennison

cathy,
that is an interesting find. i listened to the Ikon 1 when i was at Spearit a few weeks ago and did not hear what you were hearing. i was not however very impressed with the Ikon...seemed as you said a little cheap and really did not draw me in at all.

if you are in the market for new speakers, i would highly recommend a trip out to waltham to listen to the dynaudio and totem lines at Goodwin's. i am looking at bookshelves not floorstanders like you but in my listening the dynaudio and totem speakers were a head above the b&w and dali lines that i heard at spearit....

TroyD

Good read Cathy...hey if you like what you like, good on ya.

Far as the Thiels go, though, hmmmmm. I have no experience, per se, with anything but the CS 2's (they belong to DAGLJAM). I ran them for about a month and a half straight in the cave. VERY solid speakers, very coherent and seamless sound. I never noted any sort of sibilance that was an artifact of the speaker.

BDT

Dennis Gardner

Some say that the LSis are very revealing, some say they cover up. Isn't this a great hobby?:D

cfrizz

Thanks Troy. It was definately the cd's I only noticed it with the Thiels & B & W because I was looking for it from that point on after hearing it so plainly with the Dali's. But it wasn't anymore apparent than it was on my Polks. So in other words, if I was distracted I wouldn't have noticed ie normal!

The Dalis jumped across the room & slapped me in the face with it!:eek:

Those discs are now tainted for me with demos since I will always be looking for it, I don't know if I am capable of judging a speaker fairly when I hear it.

TroyD wrote:

Good read Cathy...hey if you like what you like, good on ya.

Far as the Thiels go, though, hmmmmm. I have no experience, per se, with anything but the CS 2's (they belong to DAGLJAM). I ran them for about a month and a half straight in the cave. VERY solid speakers, very coherent and seamless sound. I never noted any sort of sibilance that was an artifact of the speaker.

BDT

cfrizz

The other thing that happened when I was in Tweeter listening to EC, a lady wandered in and said "nice speakers, which ones are playing?" I got up & pointed out the Polks. She went over & looked at the price & went:eek: ! WAAA!!!

I said Polk makes very good speakers! To which she said you have experience with them? I said yes I have a pair of 16 yr old Polks at home I'm thinking of replacing. She sort of nodded & wandered off.

She came back with a sales guy who pointed out all the Polks around the room & then pointed out some Saphires. I over heard him telling her that no he couldn't discount the Polks cause Polk wouldn't allow it, but something something Saphire something.

:rolleyes: She probably settled for a Bose system!:eek: WAAAAAAAA!:D

Dennis Gardner

Cathy,

Good music and good recordings rarely share the same disc. I do believe that you should have a system that fits your music preferences rather than one that only shines on the best of recorded material, since listening to music should be an enjoyment not a tolerance test.

polkatese

From the Dali lines, I think Helicon 400 and Euphonia MS4 are worthy for auditioning, in my experience, Cathy.

Btw, you are looking into a different sonic signatures, as you moving away from LSis. Have you auditioned 15? Of all the LSis, 15 is the closest one that I would give a two thumbs up, and be able to compete favorably against the higher-end speaker lines. Of course, IMO.

Joey_V

polkatese wrote:

From the Dali lines, I think Helicon 400 and Euphonia MS4 are worthy for auditioning, in my experience, Cathy.

Btw, you are looking into a different sonic signatures, as you moving away from LSis. Have you auditioned 15? Of all the LSis, 15 is the closest one that I would give a two thumbs up, and be able to compete favorably against the higher-end speaker lines. Of course, IMO.

MS4 would give a lot of speakers a run, if not overtake. The MS5 would surely surpass it with its dedicated midrange driver. However, those 2 are so large (deep and heavy), I had to pass.

Cathy.... I know sort of where you're coming at. You like the LSi vocals but want something a little more resolving and cleaner? Am I getting warmer here? Or colder?

F1nut

IMO, the Gallo Ref 3 is far from a good speaker. The only thing it's got going for it is the funky tweeter, the rest is bland at best.

As for your last comment Sean, coming from you that means very little, if anything at all.

You like the LSi vocals but want something a little more resolving and cleaner?

If that's the case, a better source and associated gear will get you that, in spades.

DAGLJAM6

cfrizz wrote:

Thanks Mark. My Parasound can handle the Thiels.

Cathy, the Thiel CS2's were, according to the factory and most reviewers, the old school Thiel speakers to have. If anything the larger Thiels are where you'd want to be (IMO, and eventually....) they do sound great though for 20 year old speakers with a clean top end (not harsh) and a much more delineated soundstage than say the SDA series. Worth a trial period if given a chance.