High Budget 7.1 Polk HT... Need advise...

Joey_V

So are you going with 7s for rears or 9s?

Ferres

The Lsi series is great and all but also take a comparative audition of the Tannoy Sensys DC series. Clean, clear, easier to drive than the LSI series and very rewarding if given more power.

Subwoofer; the Paradigm Servo 15 and match it with the Velo Sms1 for eq if you want that feature.

Speaker Cables; Xlo ER-11's

Snagglepuss1318

Joey_V wrote:

So are you going with 7s for rears or 9s?

Pretty sure I am going to go w/the 7s...

Snagglepuss1318

I just looked at the manuals for the outlaw 990/7700 for connections. Says to use either balanced or unbalanced cables between the 2 units and 1 to the sub. What is the difference between balanced and unbalanced? I need to know so I can order and run a cable before drywall goes up soon.

mldennison

http://www.balanced.com/faq/balanced.html

i have no experience with balanced cables but those that do seem to claim that they sound better. you could use either although you might get some benefit from balanced...

Frank Z

Don't spend your coin on XLR Cables unless your amp is going to be a long distance from your preamp. 1 meter IC's are a better choice.

Snagglepuss1318

Alright, Ill order a 36' Canare LV-77S Subwoofer Cable from blue jeans then. Any suggestions on where to place my sub?? I think what im going to do is put in a conduit behind the wall for this sub cable before drywall goes up. I can move the sub around until I find a good place for it once its all setup. Ill then pull the cable through the conduit to where I need it..

This is where im at now:
LSi15 - Fronts
LSiC - Center
LSiFX - Surrounds
LSi9 - Rears
SVS PB12 - Plus/2
Outlaw 990/7700 Combo

Atrium 55 x 4

Still up in the air about the LSi9s rears, and need an amp for my Atriums...

sickicw

use the outlaw amp for the atruim, and get something more high current up front.
have you looked into krell showcase?

Joey_V

Do 9s for rears.

Frank Z

Joey,
You keep saying "use 9's for rears but I've yet to see you offer a plausable reason for this guy to pony up the extra coin for a pair of speakers of that caliber for rear suround duty. Explain, in detail please, why 9's are a better choice for minimal use rear surround speakers than the 7's.

Signed,
Me...eagerly awaiting an enlightened reply.

Joey_V

Not sure if this this is an enlightened reply Frank...

Anyway, the reason why I think he should pony up the extra what... $150 for each speaker (should be peanuts since he is building an almost $10K system)... is because he would probably use the 7/9 for rears during multichannel music playback instead of the FX (I assume).

Now, if he wants to do multichannel right, you might as well try your best to match the 15s up front. I say, the 9s have a dedicated (pseudo dedicated) midrange driver down low and a bass driver up top.... the 9s (to me) sound closer to the 15s while the 7s dont have the midrange resolution that the 15s or the 9s have... IMO.

So, why short yourself out with the 7s? You obviously have the extra cash so why not do it right (IMO)?

I know there are people who prefer the 7s to the 9s, but I much prefer the 9s. It's my opinion to go with the 9s for rears unless you:

A: Dont want to spend the extra $150 per speaker (or so).
B: You've heard both and can honestly say that you like the 7s more.

crmfmly

Frank Z wrote:

Yes, that's what I'm suggesting.

The 9's are a big bookshelf speaker that sound better than speakers costing 2-3 times as much. They would be a waste of money to be used simply as a rear suround speaker. The 7's can hold there own against many speakers as well but are more suited to surround duty than the 9's because of their size, built in wall mount, and cost. You don't need a $900+ set of rear surround speakers to get a great sounding 7.1 system.

I'm doing a complete 7.1 LSi series system and in the end after I had my 5.1 all setup I was gonna get LSi 9 for rear surround. But do you really think it's a waste of money for just rear surround and music? So what would you suggest then for rear surround sticking with Polk Audio?

Tour2ma

crmfmly,
Now I'll fuss (a bit)... hijacking another member's active thread is not proper forum etiquette. And if you reread all Frank's posts, your questions were answered.

Moving on....
Krell? C'mon... the 7700 can do ~23 amperes x 7. That should do. If he wants to get extra frisky and bi-amp the front stage, he can do that later.

Snagglepuss1318,
No doubt you're approaching opinion overload at this point. I'lll try not to compound it...

Sub - you were set on the SVS a bit earlier. I own one. I love it. While I do not guarantee you will as well, SVS does.

Rears - easy one here... go listen to the 7's and the 9's. If in a 2-ch audition you hear the 7's midrange hold Joey V is describing, buy the 9's. If not... Just b e sure that you listen at equal volume levels, as in SPL, not AVR setting. Otherwise the louder one will likely sound "fuller".

Welcome to the Club...

Frank Z

If multichannel music was the primary focus then a dedicated 5.1 channel ssytem with 5 matching speakers setup IAW the little flier that comes packaged with just about every multichannel SACD/DVD-A disc would be the absolute best option. BUT!!!! The system being built isn't a dedicated music only system, it's an HT setup that MAY be used from time to time for multichannel music. With this in mind, the additional cost of the LSi9's and and pair of suitable mounts isn't a wise choice...IMHO.

Yes the 9's are a great speaker, had a pair and wish I still owned 'em for another 2 channel rig. Would they make a huge difference in place of the 7's for movies, nope. The amount of audio present in most soundtracks is fairly minimal. It's mostly ambient, should not be localized, and therefore a larger speaker isn't needed.

It all boils down to personal taste, opinions, and available budget. Just because the coin is available doesn't mean it has to be spent.

sickicw

Tour2ma wrote:

crmfmly,
Moving on....
Krell? C'mon... the 7700 can do ~23 amperes x 7. That should do.

- The outlaw amp can not drive low impedance loads very well. I own one for my lsi setup and was not impressed. If you are going to get a high dollar system, at least make sure you have an amp that can double the current as the impedance is halfed.

polkatese

sickicw wrote:

If you are going to get a high dollar system, at least make sure you have an amp that can double the current as the impedance is halfed.

Very good advice and an appropriate rule of thumb for LSi! It works very well for my LSis, and I think the most noticeable aspect of it is in the fuller dynamic and resolutions/details at lower volume. In other words, the LSis woke up at half the volume required, otherwise.

Frank Z

sickicw wrote:

- The outlaw amp is can not drive low impedance loads very well. I own one for my lsi setup and was not impressed. If you are going to get a high dollar system, at least make sure you have an amp that can double the current as the impedance is halfed.

Gotta disagree with ya on this one. I'm push 165wpc (Outlaw7100)with all seven channels driven and have yet to have any problems driving my Lsi's. FWIW, anytime you reduce the resistance, the current will increase. Ohms Law

Joey_V

Frank Z wrote:

If multichannel music was the primary focus then a dedicated 5.1 channel ssytem with 5 matching speakers setup IAW the little flier that comes packaged with just about every multichannel SACD/DVD-A disc would be the absolute best option. BUT!!!! The system being built isn't a dedicated music only system, it's an HT setup that MAY be used from time to time for multichannel music. With this in mind, the additional cost of the LSi9's and and pair of suitable mounts isn't a wise choice...IMHO.

Yes the 9's are a great speaker, had a pair and wish I still owned 'em for another 2 channel rig. Would they make a huge difference in place of the 7's for movies, nope. The amount of audio present in most soundtracks is fairly minimal. It's mostly ambient, should not be localized, and therefore a larger speaker isn't needed.

It all boils down to personal taste, opinions, and available budget. Just because the coin is available doesn't mean it has to be spent.

Understood that perhaps for HT the 7s and the 9s would be a moot point. However, the guy is already spending a LOT on his system so why not have the multichannel music covered?

I dont understand why $150 per speaker is a lot to ask considering his spending of almost $8-10K.

sickicw

Frank Z wrote:

Gotta disagree with ya on this one. I'm push 165wpc (Outlaw7100)with all seven channels driven and have yet to have any problems driving my Lsi's. FWIW, anytime you reduce the resistance, the current will increase. Ohms Law[/URL]

yea, i never said anything about having problems with driving them. I am just saying that this is not really a high end amp and a krell will sound much much better for the lsi. Have you ever heard a setup in which the amp could double the current as the impedance is halfed with the lsis?

Oh and by the way, Ohms law also says that if your amp can't double the current as the impedance is halfed, then it will reduce the voltage to compensate. This decline in voltage peaks is basicly what kills the dynamics.

Volts = Amps x Ohms

Volts = amplitude of the music waveform (defined by volume and frequency) at a moment in time
Amps = current which should be non limiting (if it can't double down to low impedances, then it will limit current)
Ohms = impedance of speaker at moment in time

Snagglepuss1318

300 watts RMS x 7 @ 4 ohms - Outlaw 7700
600 watts @ 4-ohm load - Earthquake Cin

Toxis

^Headroom. Dynamics. Balls.

sickicw

i dont think you are understanding the concept of good power.

Lsi speakers are 4 ohms average. Average only. This means they can become as low as 2 ohms, and sometimes even 1 ohm.

Let me give you am example

Amp1 is
100 watts at 8 ohms
150 watts at 4 ohms
175 watts at 2 ohms

Amp1 doesn’t sound very dynamic because when your speaker drops down to 2 ohms (and it does a lot) the amp doesn’t have enough power to properly reproduce the signal.

Amp2 is
100 watts at 8 ohms
200 watts at 4 ohms
400 watts at 2 ohms

Amp2 will sound much better because it has lots of power to deliver when it is given a 2 ohm load.

Amp3 is
300 watts at 8 ohms
350 watts at 4 ohms
385 watts at 2 ohms

Amp 3 will be louder than the other amps, but it will sound like crap.

Tour2ma

First, speaker ratings are nominal ratings, not average.
http://www.smarthouse.com.au/Real_Hi_Fi/Full_Sized_Speakers?article=/Real%20Hi%20Fi/Full%20Sized%20Speakers/K9M5D2X5&page=2
Link even quotes our Polk Paul on the LSi line. He says:
"With them, the impedance curve stays below the 8-Ohm line a lot. So there, we thought it important to send the consumer a signal that they need to have an amplifier that can drive a 4-Ohm load."

Look, I'm as much for all the current capacity (which is really what your example is demonstrating, not power) you can afford (better to have and not need, etc.) as anyone, but just how much listening do you do near your amp's continuous, full-rated output? That's the only level where your example has any credence. I've heard 8 W tube amps that sound amazing, albeit on mid-to-upper-90 dB efficient speakers.

With any reasonably sensitive/ efficient speaker (upper 80's) in an average sized room, the average power level for normal listening in the low 90's dB-wise is less than 5 wpc. So even poor old Amp #3 can handle an 18 dB transient peak with ease.... and that's more than plenty.

As for sound quality... there's so much more than "power" to consider.

Sp1318,
The extra 300 wpc buys you exactly 3 dB more output headroom.

One other thing to consider, most of the amp power requirement is in the lower frequencies. With a great sub in the line-up, speakers set to "small" and crossed over to the sub at 60 Hz or so, you've handed off a significant piece of the power puzzle to the sub. Most HT owners run this way.

If, however, it is your intent to run your speakers set to "large" (and there are advocates for running this way), then maybe a bit more amp is in order.

But in any case it is the sub that is going to deliver the real HT **** and giggles to you and yours. Stuff whizzing around the room is cool, but down deep is where the real fun is.

EricT43

600w is not going to be much louder than 300w, but it will sound better when driven hard. In any case, I'm sure 300w will be enough to blast you out of your seats while still sounding clean.

I agree with Tour2ma. If you want to blow people away, the sub is the ticket.

sickicw

if you set your crossovers high (like 80hz) then you might do ok with the Outlaw amp. If you do this I would get a better sub than the SVS. I have found that when compared with a high end velodyne (or any high end sealed sub), the SVS is way too boomy. Just my opinion, but you might want to demo some subs before you buy.

Joey_V

sickicw wrote:

if you set your crossovers high (like 80hz) then you might do ok with the Outlaw amp. If you do this I would get a better sub than the SVS. I have found that when compared with a high end velodyne (or any high end sealed sub), the SVS is way too boomy. Just my opinion, but you might want to demo some subs before you buy.

Getting a DD18 or dual DD15 would do the trick, flat response in a minute or so, with servo control on the woofers. People who've done the DD route swear by them. I hope to get a pair at a later date.

As for SVS, dont be afraid to climb up the ladder. Going for something along the lines of dual PB12+/2 or PB12U/2 would be a solid foundation.

Toxis

*Cough*Sunfire*Cough*Solitaire*Cough*

Tour2ma

LOL... and when you sneeze it probably comes out "ah ****"...

Snagglepuss1318

Holy **** I was just reading the manual for the LSiFX and it said the sucker was 50 freakin lbs. Guess I do need to put in some supports before drywall goes up. Anyone have the dimensions of the mounting holes on the template so I can put these things in the right place?

sickicw

that is 50lbs for both of em. But still 25lbs is pretty heavy when you are trying to mount them.