Computer as pre-amp

EricT43

Hi folks. I'm planning on setting up a 2-channel system in my study/office at home. What I would like to do is use my PC as the source, running straight into a power amp. This brings up a couple of questions:

1. Is there a soundcard out there that can handle this type of duty with sound quality as good as (or better than) an outboard receiver/preamp?

2. Would I need to rip my CD's in WAV format? Has anyone tested any of the new lossless compression formats?

I-SIG

Eric,

I use an older NEC external CD-ROM as a transport with minimal issues. It won't read a few of my CD's (favorite ones unfortunately). I have mine running to a DAC. It is a nice combo with a noticeable improvement over a the DVD player I was using as transport.

Sorry I can't comment more specifically on your situation.

Wes

Lowell_M

I have the same question. I am building a home theater in my basement and was going to build a simple PC to use as part of the entertainment center. Part of it's purpose would be to play music using I-tunes. I am guessing that an external sound card woudl be preferrable??? Or can you just get a soundcard with PCM output?

heiney9

I don't beleive any computer sound card will put out enough voltage to drive a power amp, atleast with satisfactory results. The computer can be your source but I don't think it can function as a preamp, nor would you want it to.

H9

heiney9

Zero wrote:

H9,

So long as he is comfortable with using volume control via: software on his PC... he will be golden. The PC has the goods to match with any amplifier.... be it a receiver or a mighty Levinson/Krell/Gryphon, what have you..

The risk you of course run is that using the pc as a source/pre will result in a very dry/sterile sound.

I suppose it's all in how you configure it. My computer set-up is entirely different. The only volume control I have is on the Nak reciever. It's set-up that way intentionally. A direct digital stream to out of the sound card to the Dac no software processing whatsoever. Using the PC as a pre-amp certainly isn't ideal, but if it satisfies then who am I to comment.

H9

EricT43

Zero wrote:

The risk you of course run is that using the pc as a source/pre will result in a very dry/sterile sound.

Why is that?

EricT43

heiney9 wrote:

I suppose it's all in how you configure it. My computer set-up is entirely different. The only volume control I have is on the Nak reciever. It's set-up that way intentionally. A direct digital stream to out of the sound card to the Dac no software processing whatsoever. Using the PC as a pre-amp certainly isn't ideal, but if it satisfies then who am I to comment.

H9

I suppose that would work too, though it does make the system more complicated. I think it would be nice to be able to rip all my favorite CD's to hard drive, and then by adding an amp and speakers be able to enjoy quality sound without having to leave my PC.

I don't know if it would satisfy or not, that's why I'm asking the question. Trying to find out I can substitute my PC for a pre-amp without sacrificing sound quality.

If the DAC's on the Emu cards are comparable to those on a quality pre-amp, then it should work just as well, right? The only difference would be software volume control versus turning a knob on a pre-amp. I'm fairly certain that all or most modern solid-state pre-amps are using digital circuits to control volume.

Golu

It is NOT very easy to use the PC (with music on HDD) pre-amp specially if you are using Windows OS (I dont know about others). There is a system component on Windows called KMixer (It is so bad, people call it KManglar) that converts all audio streams to 48KHz. If you want good audio you need to bypass KMixer. Search for "bit-prefect audio" and see if the card you are buying supports Kernel Streaming or ASIO output. If it does then you are one step closer to using PC-as-pre.

As for format any lossless format like WMA (Windows Media Audio), ITunes, FLAC is fine. I think you should base your format choice on the player/library your are planning to use. Make sure you pick something with good library functions for tagging, searching etc. Once you collection group beyoud certain numbers it is very hard to manage the music on computers.

HTH (at least not confusing any more)

_Golu.

heiney9

Golu wrote:

It is NOT very easy to use the PC (with music on HDD) pre-amp specially if you are using Windows OS (I dont know about others). There is a system component on Windows called KMixer (It is so bad, people call it KManglar) that converts all audio streams to 48KHz. If you want good audio you need to bypass KMixer. Search for "bit-prefect audio" and see if the card you are buying supports Kernel Streaming or ASIO output. If it does then you are one step closer to using PC-as-pre.

As for format any lossless format like WMA (Windows Media Audio), ITunes, FLAC is fine. I think you should base your format choice on the player/library your are planning to use. Make sure you pick something with good library functions for tagging, searching etc. Once you collection group beyoud certain numbers it is very hard to manage the music on computers.

IMO, it's essential to get a soundcard with Kernel streaming if you are going to use an outboard Dac. My Chaintech has that capability and it was like $25. I bought it for the Kernel streaming capability and care nothing about how its Dac sounds. The sound is passable as a stand alone soundcard, certainly not what I'd consider using, but I'm picky.

EricT43 wrote:

I suppose that would work too, though it does make the system more complicated. I think it would be nice to be able to rip all my favorite CD's to hard drive, and then by adding an amp and speakers be able to enjoy quality sound without having to leave my PC.

I don't know if it would satisfy or not, that's why I'm asking the question. Trying to find out I can substitute my PC for a pre-amp without sacrificing sound quality.

If the DAC's on the Emu cards are comparable to those on a quality pre-amp, then it should work just as well, right? The only difference would be software volume control versus turning a knob on a pre-amp. I'm fairly certain that all or most modern solid-state pre-amps are using digital circuits to control volume.

IMO, there is no soundcard that has a good Dac section, it's just not possible. Is the sound passable? Sure. All I can say it get what you'd consider a good sounding card and try to hook it up to the amp. I still don't think it's going to work all that well, but I've never tried it. I don't think the voltage is going to be correct and think you'll have some noise issues using the line level out of the soundcard. I'd do some checking around on the internet to see if there is a particular soundcard or set-up used. I'd hate to see you damage an amplifier(it's possible, but probably not likely).

H9

heiney9

I don't think I so much disagree with a computer being the source, it's all in how it's set-up. My brother is testing this fact. He built a 2nd computer to use as a music server, with over 1 terabyte of storage. See link

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37169&highlight=music+server

He's ripping all 4000 cd's he owns to Flac and will stream them to a wireless Squeezbox in several rooms in his house. The main stereo has a Monarchy Dac which accepts a pure digital signal via the Squeezbox (bypassing the internal Dac) and I must say side by side with his Denon transport I can't hear a difference based soley on transport issues.

All I can say is the sound cards I've heard have not been all that great and most of the cdp's I've heard don't sound all that great. So for me I just can't use a soundcard for digital conversion. I'm spoiled using 2 outboard Dac's which really stomp most anything I've put 'em up against (exception being some hi-end players). I get much more bang for my buck with a couple of used Dac's than buying a comparable cdp which would easily cost 3-4 times as much as I paid.

The Squeezbox idea is something I'm serously considering, so I can do away with a transport all together.

H9

P.s. What my brother did is way overboard, but it works incredibly well and is still audiophile quality when used in conjuction with an outboard Dac. Smaller servers or drives could yield the same result.

EricT43

Zero wrote:

...Don’t get me wrong, while it is not the end-all be-all of digital playback, I’ve owned too much equipment and have seen way too many very respectable redbook players get their asses handed to them. I actually wish this wasn’t the case because I’m tire of organizing, and ripping. I like the simplicity of opening a tray, close it with the media, pressing play and not worry. And don’t get me started on making a reasonably fast machine almost absolutely silent!!!

Good points. Personally, I don't like pulling out a jewel case, taking the CD out, putting it in the player, listening to a few numbers, and then repeating the whole process

The noise would be an issue as well, if this were going to be a music-only system, but I'd only be listening in that room if I was in there using the computer anyway. So either way, the comp is going to be running.

I think I'll have to do a little more research outside of this website. And I will try and educate myself on outboard DAC's as well.

As far as the whole truth vs. beauty thing, I'll take the truth. I figure if the producers of the recording wanted some kind of "warmth" added to the mix, they would have done that when they mastered it, and not sit around hoping someone is going to play their disc through a tube amp.

heiney9

EricT43 wrote:

Good points. Personally, I don't like pulling out a jewel case, taking the CD out, putting it in the player, listening to a few numbers, and then repeating the whole process

The noise would be an issue as well, if this were going to be a music-only system, but I'd only be listening in that room if I was in there using the computer anyway. So either way, the comp is going to be running.

I think I'll have to do a little more research outside of this website. As far as the whole truth vs. beauty thing, I'll take the truth. I figure if the producers of the recording wanted some kind of "warmth" added to the mix, they would have done that when they mastered it, and not sit around hoping someone is going to play their disc through a tube amp.

I say give it a shot. I think you've gotten enough perspectives here to see what some of the pitfalls might be. You are the only one who has to be happy with it, but it's good to try get it done right the first time.

We all have different expectations about what is possible and how to get there. The way I've done it is my preferred method and I feel I've gotten the best bang for the buck. The AMC Dac cost me $100 shipped + $25 for a Kernel streaming soundcard and I have a combo that no stand alone soundcard can touch. Perhaps a very high end (high priced) studio type sound card could match the performance, but not @ $125 price point.

Good luck and let us know how it works out.

H9

heiney9

EricT43 wrote:

I think I'll have to do a little more research outside of this website. And I will try and educate myself on outboard DAC's as well.

Actually the AMC Dac-8 I use for the computer system isn't really an exceptional unit. It does well and is much better than the 2 sound cards I've tried (incl the Chaintech I have). But for my computer system it's pretty satisfying.

I ran head-to-head against my Nakamichi cdp, it did some things better than the Nak and the Nak did a few things better than the AMC. I put it up against the Adcom and the Adcom smoked it in every aspect, handily. The AMC serves it's purpose perfectly for what my expectation was for the system it's in. They don't come up 4Sale too often, but they are usually a bargain when they do. The Adcom is a great unit and can be had for $300-350 used. Sometimes a Monarchy Audio 18B can be gotten for a reasonable price around $200 if you keep an eye out. Look to see if has the piggyback chip upgrade.

FWIW

H9

EricT43

Thanks for the tips, H9