What's the best belt-drive turntable one can buy for under $200?

Jstas

George Grand wrote: »

Dual is 75 US dollars local pick-up. Are you local?

I dunno, lemme check.

ViperZ

Definitely look at older Dual (my first table was 1228) 1228 or 1229Q. Get a cheap preamp, like the one from NAD or Cambridge Audio 540P, and you're all set.

inspiredsports

ViperZ wrote: »

Definitely look at older Dual (my first table was 1228) 1228 or 1229Q. Get a cheap preamp, like the one from NAD or Cambridge Audio 540P, and you're all set.

I'm curious as I've never owned anything but belt drive tables: Is the Dual drive system as quiet (in terms of rumble) as the belt drive recommendation the OP is looking for ?

ViperZ

inspiredsports wrote: »

I'm curious as I've never owned anything but belt drive tables: Is the Dual drive system as quiet (in terms of rumble) as the belt drive recommendation the OP is looking for ?

1228 and 1229 are belt-driven turntables...

http://www.vinylengine.com/library/dual/1228.shtml

inspiredsports

ViperZ wrote: »

1228 and 1229 are belt-driven turntables...

http://www.vinylengine.com/library/dual/1228.shtml

Hmm. . . Except . . . direct quotations from the link you provided state,

"Dual 1228 --- 2-Speed Fully automatic Idler-drive turntable"

and . . .

"Drive is via a 4-pole synchronous motor and idler to a non-magnetic, 1.8kg 270mm diameter platter."

I could be wrong, I'm not sure what the mix-up is, but I believe those are idler drive units. Did you really own one?

ben62670

Direct drive is fine on a heavy platter. I like my SL1210. No issues at all. It's the lightweight tables that give you problems. Also I never have a problem with slipping belts, worry about finding a replacement, or setting the speed.

ViperZ

inspiredsports wrote: »

Hmm. . . Except . . . direct quotations from the link you provided state,

"Dual 1228 --- 2-Speed Fully automatic Idler-drive turntable"

and . . .

"Drive is via a 4-pole synchronous motor and idler to a non-magnetic, 1.8kg 270mm diameter platter."

I could be wrong, I'm not sure what the mix-up is, but I believe those are idler drive units. Did you really own one?

You're right. Long day. Having 3 tables, forgot which one is which.

johnnykazz

I have an Audio-Technica AT-LP60 which has a switch on the back for line level or phono output. So that would give you the option to upgrade later to a better external phono-stage rather than using the internal one. I would use the line out until you see how into vinyl you get before you spend anymore money. I now have upgraded my stylus and belt through LPGear.com, I have it running into a Cambridge 640p, then to an Onkyo receiver, and then out to my Cerwin-Vegas. I probably should have got a better turntable for how much I listen to it, but honestly this thing sounds amazing with the upgrades, but I also remember it sounding extremely acceptable through a Sony blu-ray surround, stock and set on line level. Especially for the price.

Here's a link to where you can purchase this and more information on it:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/665940-REG/Audio_Technica_AT_LP60_AT_LP60_Fully_Automatic_Belt_Drive.html

They are out of stock on that one, but they also have the same exact turntable with a USB option as well so you can digitize the analog audio:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/665941-REG/Audio_Technica_AT_LP60USB_AT_LP60USB_Fully_Automatic_Belt_Drive.html

Hope this was of some sort of help. The original LP60 will be back in stock soon. I would tell you to continue to stay under $200, and upgrade to the LP120 if the bigger number tells you bigger quality, but that doesn't have a dust-cover among other things that are important to me.

gdb

I just got a TD 145 Thorens for $200.00 + shipping by making an offer on ebay. I got the 145 because it has end of play stylus lift but, the other model like mine w/o lift is the TD 160 and they are usually right around $200 also. Inline preamps for phono function seem to be available for not much $$. Now, I just need to pay approx. 2 1/2 times as much for a record cleaning machine!!:eek::biggrin:

inspiredsports

gdb wrote: »

I just got a TD 145 Thorens for $200.00 + shipping by making an offer on ebay. I got the 145 because it has end of play stylus lift but, the other model like mine w/o lift is the TD 160 and they are usually right around $200 also. Inline preamps for phono function seem to be available for not much $$. Now, I just need to pay approx. 2 1/2 times as much for a record cleaning machine!!:eek::biggrin:

Extremely nice turntable and identical to the TD-160 other than the end of LP lift circuit. The 145 is a sleeper as they usually trade for fewer dollars, you get identical sound quality, PLUS you get the lift feature. I have several fully functional TD-145's right now and the automatic end of LP lift is wonderful when it's working.

The rebuild procedure on that feature is a lost art, so as a word of caution, do not ever mess around with potentiometer settings on the circuit board, or the tiny set screw involved underneath the cream-colored, rectangular plastic box that protects the tonearm wiring and ground.

gdb

inspiredsports wrote: »

Extremely nice turntable and identical to the TD-160 other than the end of LP lift circuit. The 145 is a sleeper as they usually trade for fewer dollars PLUS you get the lift feature. I have several fully functional TD-145's right now and the automatic end of LP lift is wonderful when it's working.

The rebuild procedure on that feature is a lost art, so as a word of caution, do not ever mess around with potentiometer settings on the circuit board, or the tiny set screw involved underneath the cream-colored, rectangular plastic box that protects the tonearm wiring.

Those sound like very important things to keep in mind at all times! Thanks for the "heads up"! I knew that the hard core Thorens purists had some disdain for the "added complication" of the lift & off feature. I looked and am still looking for the add-on lifters from either Thorens or AT but they're very scarce. Thanks for your help!

inspiredsports

gdb wrote: »

Those sound like very important things to keep in mind at all times! Thanks for the "heads up"! I knew that the hard core Thorens purists had some disdain for the "added complication" of the lift & off feature. I looked and am still looking for the add-on lifters from either Thorens or AT but they're very scarce. Thanks for your help!

I also have several various versions of TD-160's and TD-166's, and my "top" 3 Thorens tables are TD-160 MkII's with SME 3009 Series III, Infinity Black Widow and Grace 707 aftermarket tonearms, but as far as tables with Thorens brand tonearms (which are very, very good in their own right), you would be hard pressed to tell a difference between those without the auto lift feature.

I don't know if you've gotten that far, but vintage Grado MM cartridges (brand new Grado black, green, red, silver, gold styluses will fit) seem to be a very good match.

I have and enjoy every one on these below on the 145/160's. If you buy extra (removable) headshells, it makes quick work of swapping cartridges.

Pickering ZV-15 1200EE
Stanton 681 EEE MK III
Shure M97HE Era IV
Audio Technica AT477LC (AT-14SA)
Micro Acoustics MA QDC-1e
Grado Z+ (equiv silver)
Grado ZF3 (equiv blue)
Grado F3+ (equiv blue)
Grado F3+ (equiv blue)
Grado MF-3 (equiv green)
Argent MC-500HS High Output Moving Coil Hyper-Elliptical Sapphire Stylus
Grado Woodbody Reference Platinum

The only bad thing I've ever found about the 145 and 160's are some have a shaft that is too short for Joe's "The Clamp" to get a perfect bite so I use my

gdb

So...... you're not in the 124/idler cult. I can't see the attraction, personally, it seems that an idler wheel would cause way more rumble than a pure belt drive. Must just be a nostalgia thing. (I guess)

inspiredsports

gdb wrote: »

So...... you're not in the 124/idler cult. I can't see the attraction, personally, it seems that an idler wheel would cause way more rumble than a pure belt drive. Must just be a nostalgia thing. (I guess)

I've not owned a TD-124, but not for lack of trying. I've always believed in try it for yourself and listen. It seems whenever I was in the mood to buy one, someone had another $5 bill in their pocket.

As far as the concept, my prejudice is that a perfectly set up belt drive is probably better, but there are tens of thousands of, as you say, "124 idler cultists" who will disagree with me.

You do need to find someone selling the original (and more expensive) Thorens belt as many aftermarket belts are too tight, put too much force on the motor spindle, and run plus or minus 33-1/3.

I probably have 30 NOS belts here and generally need to swap out a dozen or more on any given table before getting the speed strobe to stand absolutely still, and obviously, a perfect 33-1/3 is needed for perfect pitch. That's where the concept of getting all of that platter mass spinning, and then adjusting the speed with the idler is sweet, but if you can achieve a perfect 33-1/3 with a belt, I've got to believe it has less rumble.

gdb

Yeah.....I can live without an idler, and the prices a TD 124 fetch. (more $$ for cartridges):biggrin:

Tour2ma

There's nothing inherently "rumbly" about an idler (rim) drive. Far from it, the idler wheels are rubber, and rubber is not a good conductor of vibration.

Rumble is motor sourced and rim drive is one of a couple isolation approaches... with belt drive being the most common. My old Dual 1229 was my first rim drive... very quiet for a modestly price MOTR TT.

As for Thorens... the TD-124 rocks. It's a rim drive with the idler driven by a belt. Pairs nicely with the above mentioned SME 3009-III... or II (1 or 2)... or I. I also have a 3012 I'm restoring that I'll mount one of these days.

As for the Under $200 thread...

AR XA all the way... Plentiful... Cheap... Easy to work on to get running, if need be. Somewhat unloved by "enthusiasts" because it is not easily tweeked, but IMO it's beauty is it is such a simple (yet revolutionary) design that tweeking only complicates it (and eff's it up).

You can easily grab one and a nice cartridge for under $200... With some effort, patience and a bit of luck, you could even add a listenable Phono pre without exceeding that budget price.

I swear there was an old thread on the XA's history, but not seeing it in search results. One bit of interest is that it is widely believed that Thorens stole the AR XA's suspension design.

inspiredsports

I just found this thread where a guy bought an AR XA for $110 2-years ago and it shows step-by-step how he restored it . . . http://www.johnsweather.com/Turntable.html

While it looks like a nice turntable, my only comments are that the parts/design look nearly identical to the Thorens TD-145/160, but not nearly as heavy-duty. The AR also looks like it sports a less sophisticated tonearm. Last, there are literally dozens of simple tweaks that can be performed on a Thorens that DON'T "eff" them up.

They are both probably great brands because you can spend $200 to get a table that runs with tables currently costing $2,000!

gdb

My Dad had the AR sometime in the 1970s, it played records but, it had no anti skate provision and worst of all.........no cueing lift mechanism!:mad:

Tour2ma

gdb wrote: »

.........no cueing lift mechanism!:mad:

So buy an XB...

Anti-skate wasn't judged necessary by the designer, Edgar Villchur, and based upon listening to properly set up XA's, it's hard to argue against them. Some claim that twisting the wire lead can apply anti-skate.

insp,
Nice link to the restoration job... Here's one to a site that has more info run by an old internet forum and ebay bud of mine, ddarch. Dave started restoring AR's several years ago and later added Thorens to his offerings.
http://www.vinylnirvana.com/

gdb

Looks like my TD 145 deal is gonna "head South" and that I'll be eyeing other Thorens to buy in the near future.:frown: Maybe I'll attempt a DIY arm lifter and put it on a 160!:biggrin:

AudioPhil

Hey hey. I joined this forum specifically to try and bring this thread back to life once again for 2014. It's still on the first page of results for the "best vintage turntable under $200" question.

I've read this whole thread band many others on the subject of re-entering the world of vinyl. First, I'm curious if there's anything to add/update from you good people here, considering how much the turntable market has changed in three years. From what I have seen, most of the suggestions in this thread are now harder to find and more expensive (the Thorens, XA, Dual, etc.)

I don't need a pre-amp as my Onkyo SR703 has a phono input. I have max $200 to spend all in, including a cart upgrade. Basically I have a small collection of new and vintage vinyl that I'm dying to start listening to again and I need a TT sooner rather than later. I really would prefer to go vintage if I can, but the quality of the units on eBay or elsewhere in my price range are mostly total crap. Not to mention the shipping issues, etc. I've even looked into a few local pickup options here on Long Island. The question is, should I:

1) be patient and keep looking for that needle in a haystack on eBay/elsewhere
2) go the garage sale route (extra patient)
3) just grab an old Technics/Pioneer unit with local pickup (or even risk the shipping if from an established seller), upgrade the cartridge and start saving for something much better
Or 4) hold off on vintage for now and buy a new LP-60 since I can get one for cost ($108 I believe)

Time is a factor for me. I wish I had more to spend, but I just need something quick for this budget now so I can start listening and saving for something much better next year.

cmy330go

If you can hold out long enough, I'd recommend seriously looking at the U-turn Audio tables. They're finally catching up with demand, and are claiming an ETA of April on new orders. With the market like it is currently, I'm not convinced it will be easy to find a vintage table in that price range, that will be any better than the U-turn tables.

http://uturnaudio.com/store/

AudioPhil

Thanks very much for the suggestion! The U-Turns look like a great option, but I'm really not sure I can wait that long. I basically need something in the next few weeks. I know you said it won't be easy to find a vintage turntable at that price, but if you had to pick one of the 4 choices above or had to settle for something terrible by most people's standards here, what would it be?

I'd put it like this: I have a collection of old dirty vintage LPs that I want to enjoy for now, for which a higher end TT wouldn't be necessary. Then I plan to start my new audiophile grade vinyl collection once I've saved for a higher end TT. But I need help deciding how to spend the $200 right now.

jeremymarcinko

I would have second that orbit basic turntable. For under $ 200 that has to be as good as it gets. I would consider the Audio Technica AT-PL 120 as well, just do not upgrade the cartridge as it will really highlight the table's weaknesses. Same goes with the Music Hall usb-1 ($250) I had a new one for about two weeks, nice looking table and sounded quite good except it did not maintain a steady speed. Music Hall should no better if you are going to sell a table with a poor speed variance don't put a strobe on it. That thing went back in a hurry. But for you just wanting to spin some old vinyl the Music Hall might be just what you need. But I am willing to bet the Orbit is much better.

cmy330go

AudioPhil wrote: »

I'd put it like this: I have a collection of old dirty vintage LPs that I want to enjoy for now, for which a higher end TT wouldn't be necessary. Then I plan to start my new audiophile grade vinyl collection once I've saved for a higher end TT. But I need help deciding how to spend the $200 right now.

If this is the case, the first thing you need is a way to clean those records. The last thing you want to do is play dirty records on a cheap turntable, and permanently damage them. Check into a Spin Clean.

As for a used TT, honestly there are far too many to even create a list. I'd recommend finding something in your price range that looks decent, and do some quick research, or post a link to it for some feedback from the community.

In just a few minutes of searching eBay here are just a few for $200ish that look ok.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/PIONEER-PL-518-DIRECT-DRIVE-TURNTABLE-PL518-w-Original-BOX-AND-MANUAL-/321329514401?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item4ad0bb47a1

http://www.ebay.com/itm/GARRARD-GT-25P-Turntable-Record-Player-w-SHURE-Stylus-TESTED-WORKING-WELL-/141198596131?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item20e0179823

http://www.ebay.com/itm/JVC-VL-5-Turntable-Made-in-Japan-/171209372783?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item27dcdfb46f

http://www.ebay.com/itm/B-I-C-BIC-960-TURNTABLE-BELT-DRIVE-NEAR-MINT-VERY-NICE-GUARANTEED-GOOD-WORKING-/390774476599?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item5afbf94f37

Disclaimer: I didn't do any deep reading on any of these or pay attention to seller feedback. So I'm not responsible should you choose to buy one.

cmy330go

Just a couple other thoughts while you're looking.

Try to get something that has a standard 1/2" mount. This will give you a much wider range of cartridges to choose from.

If possible steer clear of the the super cheap lightweight plastic tables of the 80s, 90s, and 2000s.

Make sure seller knows how to properly package & ship the table.

When you get a table, take the time to properly set it up. Don't just throw on a record, and assume everything is ok. Make sure the table is perfectly level. Verify the cartridge is aligned. Set the tracking force within the correct range. Adjust anti-skate. And then if the table has the ability (not likely) try to dial in SRA, and Azimuth.

OK. I'm done preaching. :-)

PolkieMan

I agree (ORBIT) and it's new with a warranty and a cartridge

under $200 AND belt-drive that's tough

http://www.amazon.com/Stanton-T55USB-Belt-Drive-Turntable-Cartridge/dp/B00292BREK/ref=sr_1_37?s=aht&ie=UTF8&qid=1392976903&sr=1-37&keywords=belt+drive+turntable

cmy330go wrote: »

If you can hold out long enough, I'd recommend seriously looking at the U-turn Audio tables. They're finally catching up with demand, and are claiming an ETA of April on new orders. With the market like it is currently, I'm not convinced it will be easy to find a vintage table in that price range, that will be any better than the U-turn tables.

http://uturnaudio.com/store/

AudioPhil

cmy330go: Thanks very much for all the great suggestions. Luckily I can get a Spin Clean set at cost, so I was already planning on picking one up. As for the actual TT, you've pretty much confirmed the direction I was already headed, which is good. And I do fully intend on taking my time setting my table up. Any quick links you'd recommend for the noob that outlines the basics you mentioned? I'd imagine the tools I'd need won't add much cost but be invaluable to learn how to operate properly (and I want to learn).

Good suggestion to post links I'm interested in for feedback from the community. Happy to be here!

AudioPhil

PolkieMan: I've looked quite a bit at that Stanton, thanks for the recommendation. I really think I want to try and stick with vintage, but in my price range it might make sense to grab a cheap new TT and start saving for a higher-end vintage unit.

That's ultimately the decision it's come down to.

My question is, will ANY new table under $200 have even remotely sound as good as tables in the neighborhood of the links above? Or does even the AT LP60 with an upgraded cart beat anything vintage under $200?

ViperZ

AudioPhil, for basic setup, check out VinylEngine database and forums - wealth of knowledge for vinyl fans. And yes, you can get a decent vintage sound as good as decent modern table. I have Dual 1228 idler table and Rega Planar 2 belt-drive, both sound as good, just prefer Dual because it's fully automatic, so I don't have to get up when the record is done playing.