I've now heard 'hi-fi'

audiobliss

Well, I guess you can color me a few shades of disappointed. I had (hmm..and am still having) the good fortune (or misfortune?) to be home alone for a few minutes, so I grabbed my Big Mon and Cream of Clapton CDs to give 'em a spin in my system.

Starting with Darlin' Corey....well, there just isn't near as much energy, force, presence with my system as there was with the B&W's and Bryston gear. That little something I heard for the first time on Tuesday? I could hear it today on my system. But it just wasn't nearly as enjoyable. In my room that must be half the size of that demo room, I couldn't seem to achieve near the force or impact (SPL? pressure?) the other system had.

So then I put in Cream of Clapton for a few songs. There wasn't as much of a difference between the two CDs as there was when listening to the system Tuesday, but again, there wasn't near as much energy buzzing around.


Moderate listening levels for my system are usually around -40 to -30 when my parents are home, and when they're gone (like now), I turn it up to the - teens. I guess it sounds 'louder', but it doesn't have any more impact or slam. I walk out of my room and down the hall, and even in the other end of the house, it sounds loud, but when I walk back in my room, the presence just isn't there. I came across that song with the snare drum kick again, so I turned it up to see if I could 'feel' it like I did Tuesday. No go. So I turned it up some more. I ended up turning it up to -2, but the snare drum kick just blended in with the rest of the song. I could feel the floor shaking a bit under my feet, but I couldn't 'feel' the music. Am I at all conveying what I'm thinking?

I know I need to get a new source and a nice preamp before I can begin to brag about my system, and I know my placement is nothing short of horrible, so I'm hoping that has something to do with.

At least now I know I can go to that store and hear what it should sound like (or at least closer to what it should sound like) and compare it to my system. But maybe that's not such a good thing.


Oh, and can anybody confirm if what I'm hearing is actually a snare drum kick? In the first 16 seconds of Presence of the Lord, just a few bars are repeated over and over. The music starts from a lower note, then hits a higher note, then comes back down again. *uses hand gestures to simulate placement of notes on sheetmusic* In the FIRST bar, the high note kicks a lot harder than the others. What is that? Is that indeed a snare drum?

audiobliss

I can confidently say that my system is no where near 'nice', and I am no where near an 'audiophile'. I have yet to sit down in front of a rig and determine the boundaries of the soundstage and pick out where everybody 'on stage' is standing. However, I do believe that, after Tuesday, I have the sickness. Comparing my system today with what I heard Tuesday...I'm motivated to make it sound better!

I only hope I can afford that!

Joey_V

I would try and help you out with that snare drum bit, but my rig is at the apartment and I'm at home home... sorry.

halo

Joey_V clean out your pm box!

unc2701

Those RF-35's cut off pretty steep starting around 40hz, if I remember (a freind of mine uses them)... His system didn't sound right until he got a sub in there. You'd be surprised how much info there is between 20hz and 40hz. It's more subtle than the 40-80hz octave, but it really gives the music the force that it needs.

Joey_V

Halo wrote:

Joey_V clean out your pm box!

Done and done!

I dont understand why we are limited to 70.... geez!!!

audiobliss

The RF35's -3db point is 37Hz. Not that spectacular, for sure, but I never thought it required a sub.

It's interesting that you should bring that up. As I was leaving Custom Home Hi-Fi Tuesday, there was a big Klipsch RSW-15 sub box sitting in the middle of the floor, so I asked the salesman if they had started carrying Klipsch. He said no, and that one of his customers had bought it, didn't like it, and wanted them to try and sell it. The salesman talked about how bloated the bass was on the Klipsch sub, and how it didn't go very low (all things I had heard before). Before I left I said that I had Klipsch mains, but had heard their subs weren't that great. He said I should get a sub, and that I should look at Paradigm.

When he said I needed a sub, I just brushed it aside, 'cause I've never seriously thought I needed a sub ever since I went with 2-channel. However, maybe I do.

But I don't think that's really the problem here. This 'snare drum' kick I heard definitely isn't in the lower frequencies, and my system can't capture near the amount of force the B&W's and Brystons reproduced.

heiney9

Bliss, you just experienced your 1st audio epiphany. The experience you are trying so hard to put into words is what it's all about. Each of us is on a quest and we are all at different stops on that quest. This is just a small taste of what is possible with top notch equipment and recordings. The exhiliration can be the same as that feeling you get riding a roller coaster.

To your snare drum question. The snare is not kicked, it's struck with a stick. I think you might be referring to the kick drum (big bass drum). You use a foot pedal to strike the drum. The snare is the drum you hear that sounds like it snaps. The pop of a clean snare is another very exciting aural experience to here that crisp snap as the stick smacks the drum head with all the natural attack and decay characteristics.

H9

CrBoy

Zero wrote:

...but I want to just say something that may need repeating every once inawhile as you get deeper into this hobby; You dont *need* any of this stuff, its just toys, its just for fun. When you stop having fun, its time to get on out!

This is true for most of the people and I do know some folks that really need to keep upgrading their stuff every 2-3 months to be phisically healthy and in good mood

audiobliss

By saying 'snare drum kick', I meant the 'kick' the snare drum delivers. I'm actually aware that the snare drum is 'hit with a stick'. I've listened to that passage several times, and it sounds like a snare drum to me. But I just can't be sure.

heiney9

audiobliss wrote:

By saying 'snare drum kick', I meant the 'kick' the snare drum delivers. I'm actually aware that the snare drum is 'hit with a stick'. I've listened to that passage several times, and it sounds like a snare drum to me. But I just can't be sure.

A snare is pretty unmistakeable as no other drum sounds quite like it. Wasn't trying to dumb down the explanation just trying to be more exact. I don't have that particular music so I can't listen and say for sure.

audiobliss

heiney9 wrote:

Wasn't trying to dumb down the explanation just trying to be more exact.

Wasn't taken that way, either.

heiney9 wrote:

I don't have that particular music so I can't listen and say for sure.

That, sir, is not forgiveable! :eek:

Joey_V

audiobliss wrote:

When he said I needed a sub, I just brushed it aside, 'cause I've never seriously thought I needed a sub ever since I went with 2-channel. However, maybe I do.

But I don't think that's really the problem here. This 'snare drum' kick I heard definitely isn't in the lower frequencies, and my system can't capture near the amount of force the B&W's and Brystons reproduced.

Here is where it gets messy... it is very difficult to find a sub that integrates supremely well with your mains, if you're picky enough. When I had my Vantages, I thought the same way you did.. that I didnt need the lower extension. However, I missed it and when I heard the Summits play on its own in full force, I realized that I needed that last lower octave.

I scoured for a sub and I decided not on SVS, HSU, or the usual subs, but on a Velodyne DD15 or DD18.

At this point, I realized that the cash to acquire these subs would put me easily into used Summit territory and here I am 2 weeks later.

Once you start looking for that last few octaves, things get hairy.

audiobliss

Ugh. I don't wanna hafta integrate a sub into my mains! I don't like subs! That's why I wanted floorstanders, lol. I don't have the space for a sub, either. I think I'll concentrate on making the rest of my system stronger, before I worry too much about the lower frequencies.

Dennis Gardner

Bear with me for this:

What added to the realism that you experienced in your "kick" you heard in the snare drum is the harmonics and dynamics that your speakers can't deliver. Few naturally occuring "tones" or percussive sounds are one single note. They have natural harmonic overtones within the main frequency that add to the note to make it whole as a real sound. They may be several octaves higher or lower than the predominant tone that you hear. A single note produced artificially is very sterile and lifeless....ever actually listened to a sine wave and enjoyed for it for over 3 seconds? Get the picture?

A single frequency like a sine wave is boring and monotonous by nature without any texture. Singing, and producing those notes naturally through vibration of a vocal chord, wind instrument, strings, or other percussion instrument is anything but monotone and isn't a single frequency at all.

With that explained...........It takes a pretty good level of speaker and electronics and room acoustics (echos) to reproduce those overtones and percussive waves at a realistic level. Your 35s just aren't up to it at high volume and when turned down, your amps aren't producing enough current to deliver it unless a sub is used to bring up the bottom end. Full range speakers are the best at delivering this realism. Just think how much your gain from dinky sats to your 35s. The same can be gained goin to towers, but only the best of tower designs can deliver it with clarity, since many don't handle bass resonance very well and muddy mids and highs along the way. I hear this in RTi70s that I run in my living room. Nice for movies but muddy with music nuance.

organ

Bliss,
I also experienced "hi end" on a pair of Beemers about 10 years ago at a friend's house. At the time, I thought my Kenwood speakers/Technics receiver combo was the bomb lol. Bryston amps are kick **** with a **** load of headroom to handle the most demanding speakers. I'm still considering Bryston for my LSi9. Also have a Krell int, Musical Fidelity seperates in mind. But that day is still pretty far away.

Don't talk about how much your system is lacking just yet. You haven't reached it's potential. You're using a portable CDP as a source and a receiver as pre. These are your weakest point right now. Believe me, I know. I used to use a discman as source, then DVD player. The difference a dedicated CDP can make in a system is huge. I'm talking pure solid hitting bass, rich sound and beautiful highs.

The snare hit you're talking about can be achieved in your system. This is what I really like about the RF-35's. They can do transients like no other speakers in the same price range. Hell, I'm talking live kind of dynamics. But the way I see it, your source and pre are holding your rig back by a mile. The 35's are capable of producing very powerful/deep bass. I can enjoy mine without a sub. How big is your room? Try to give them more distance apart and from the listening position. Those big speakers need to breathe.

So don't worry about what your system is not capable of at the moment. Just enjoy it for now knowing that after your upgrades, you'll look back and laugh at how it was set up before. So what's next for you? Source? Saw your Rotel CDP post over at the Klipsch forum.

Maurice

audiobliss

Dennis Gardner
Thanks for the explanation. Was very clear and concise, i.e. I understood it! Your argument makes perfectly good sense. However, the RF35 is a tower speaker. As organ says, (I hope) it should be capable of producing those snare drum hits you 'feel'.

organ,
Thanks for the reality check, man. Ever sense Tuesday I've been trying to come up with a way to buy different speakers, lol! Maybe a preamp and CDP will make a major difference, but I know my room and their placement are really hurting things big time.

My room is 13.5' x 13', so it's not large by any means. Also, my placement is horrible. I've attached a quick Paint rendering of a bird's eye view of my room. My left speaker is 9 inches from the back wall, while the feet touch the desk on the left, and the door *can* touch the speaker on the right. For the left speaker, it's about 7 inches from the back wall and 4 inches from the left side-wall (remember it's catawompus, so, there's a triangle of area behind the speaker). My 'sweet spot' is beside my bed right in front of my nightstand. I either crouch there or move my desk chair to that spot. It's probably far from a sweet spot, but it's the only one I have.

My first upgrade is a CDP. I've all but sent out the MO for it. And yes, it's the one I asked about on the Klipsch forum. I'm still surprised noone offered any advice.

Next will hopefully be a Dodd ELP. Those two should really bring the performance of my system up a bit, but I feel that the placement and room conditions are more of a problem than my upstream equipment is. And that's not good, because, as prohibitive as the cost of new equipment is, I don't even know how I can go about improving the layout in my room.

Oh well, it is a journey. Hopefully I'll be able to stop and smell the roses along the way.

EDIT - I have 'updated' my little Paint rendition of my room's layout. This one is actually to scale. Well, except for the Scott 208D in the right corner. I forget about it and added it in. The rest actually is to scale.

I-SIG

Just a few thoughts from reading this thread:

A good sub makes a MASSIVE difference, even with my SRS's. Don't be a afraid of blending a sub. Besides the gear (dB meter & spreadsheet), all you need is some patience and time to fiddle around.

I'm gonna have to disagree with the snare drum deal. When I went from the Carver to the Parasound amp the midrange difference was amazing. The snare drum (among other things) went from in your face to still sharp, but much more blended and natural. I can't think of a single live performance I have attended that the snare was beating me in the chest, even from the 3rd or 10th row.

If the Dodd ELP compares to the Dared units of similar design & build, save about 75% and get an Audio Alchemy DLC.

that's enough for now.

Wes

Early B.

I-SIG wrote:

I can't think of a single live performance I have attended that the snare was beating me in the chest, even from the 3rd or 10th row.

Bingo. Live music is the litmus test for your system. If you hear (or sometimes feel) something in your system that you won't hear in a good live performance, then maybe it shouldn't be there.

madmax

Another thing to remember is that different systems do different things. If you pick one particular sonic point and compare it to pick out the better system you will have missed the boat all together.
madmax

shack

Early B. wrote:

Bingo. Live music is the litmus test for your system. If you hear (or sometimes feel) something in your system that you won't hear in a good live performance, then maybe it shouldn't be there.

I hear this over and over...but it doesn't have anything to do with most of the music I like. It may be true if you are listening to non-amplified music in a small closed environment. I don't want my music to sound ANYTHING like some of the concerts I've been to. Even in a small club environment the sound of the music (instruments or vocals) is still dependent on the amplification and accoustics, etc... The energy or atmosphere may be conducive to an enjoyable experience, but very often the sound ain't that great. I find that even well recorded symphony music is often better "sounding" than the live experience due to the placement of the microphones.

While I often prefer the experience of a live performance, I more often prefer the sound of a good recording.

reeltrouble1

Bliss,

Come to Polkfest.

RT1

audiobliss

The one in SC? I'll have to check and see when it is...but I can tell you...I'll have to be out of the house and away from my parents' jurisdiction before I'll be able to go to a polkfest.

organ

I'm on a mac right now so I don't know how to view your attachment. I'll take a look at it when I'm using the PC next week.

Is there any way you can pull those speakers out more? 9" from the front wall is really pushing it with the 35's. Those ports are huge compared to other speakers. I've got mine about 2.5ft away from the front wall and have no problems at all getting deep powerful bass. I'm guessing, the 9" of clearance is somehow **** up the bass and smearing the sound. You can always try DIY room treatments using cheap foam. Forget the audiophile grade stuff.

Don't think about upgrading the speakers until you hear them at their full potential. Hell, I haven't even maxed out my 35's yet. The 7's are my dream speakers but I seriously don't feel the need to upgrade. The 35's are still the best speakers I've heard.

Congrats on your Rotel CDP! Not too many people use Rotel as a source, so that's probably why you didn't get any response. But believe me, the difference you'll hear compared to your discman will be night and day.

I'll get back to this after I use the PC to view your picture.



OK, back to the snare drums. The 35's are 98db/w/m with two 8 inchers/1 horn loaded tweeter in each cabinet. They WILL reproduce that kind of sound with no problems. This is what Klipsch is known for: The live sound with a buttload of dynamics and impact. I attend live concerts a lot and trust me, with the right gear and recording you will get very close to a live drum.

The thing I'm talking about is the transient attack of the drum. It's not just highs. A lot of upper bass and mids are also involved in reproducing this sound. But the initial attack is mostly on the mids and highs. The upper bass adds body to the sound. This gives that immediacy. A rim shot sounds even more impressive. It's more dynamic and jumps right out of the speakers and hit you hard. Your speakers are more than capable of reproducing it. I have connected my speakers to a many different types of equipments and receivers just won't cut it when it comes to dynamics. It's going to sound thin and a little on the bright side.

Maurice

reeltrouble1

Waaa, Bliss, reading about audio and peeps advice is fun and a bit of a "fix". talking about our systems is only second to time with them. Hearing Hi-Fi beats it hands down. At the Fest you will hear Hi-fi, tell Mom and Dad a very large LEO will look after you!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ps--I would not mention the "random thought" thing I sometimes post!!:eek:

RT1

read-alot

Audiobliss, I finally made it over to Winston yesterday and found Custom's new location. When we found the room with all the B&Ws I asked to demo the Rotel and told my wife to get ready for what was supposed to put my system in the weeds and I really believed it was going to blow my SDAs away. Well you know where Im headed and it wasn't until my wife looked me with this bewildered look and said the Polk's sound better. It may be the tubes of the Dodd that made the piano sound closer to a live performance than what we listened yesterday. They offered to let me try the 1072 on my setup one weekend and I will probably do that soon. I work weird hours now that our season (Cup Racing) has started but if your ever on the west side off I-77 on 421 you are welcome to stop by and let me know what you think.

Mike

read-alot

I probably should mentioned that my system is now.

SDA 2 (RDO silk domes)
Phase Linear 400 (modded)
Dodd ELP (separate power supply) (E188cc SQ tubes)
Outlaw ICs
MIT Shotgun 2 speaker cables
Panny rp82 that the 1072 will replace for audio (Im keeping it for video)
HSU STF 2

halo

read-alot wrote:

I work weird hours now that our season (Cup Racing) has startedMike

What do you do?

Bliss - room treatments are a great place to start experimenting. You can change the sound for less money and, as you move up the food chain, you continue to reap the benefits.

audiobliss

read-alot
I had no idea you were so close. Was Wednesday your frist visit to Custom Home Hi-Fi? What was your general impression of the store? If you remember, who was it who helped you?

I didn't mean to imply the B&W's were the best speaker or that they would trump SDA's or anything like that. I just thought that system sounded much superior than my system. I'm sure the SDA's would have at least as much of the commanding presence and room-energizing capabilities as the B&W's.

read-alot

Halo wrote:

What do you do?

Bliss - room treatments are a great place to start experimenting. You can change the sound for less money and, as you move up the food chain, you continue to reap the benefits.

I work for Dodge Research and Development now.

I've worked on Cup cars since 1973.