Time to graduate (finally) - looking for help

crazy

Hi folks,

I haven't been active on this board for a while - but that's because I just graduated and was busy looking for jobs. Well, finally I did land a pretty cool job and looking to upgrade my gear :cool:

My current setup is made up of the Monitor speakers and Onkyo receiver and DVD player

My budget - arround $4500

Here's what I have in mind ...

1st Option

---

1) B&W 704 --> $2,200
2) Rotel Pre-amp --> $500
3) Rotel amp --> $700
4) Rotel CD Player --> $700

Total = $4100

2nd Option

---

1) B&W 805 --> $2500
2) Krell KAV-400xi Integrated Amplifier --> $2500
3) Stick with Onkyo CD player for now

Total = $5000 (a little over my budget)

I would really appreciate if you folks could give me some tips. I really like the B&W speakers but am confused whether I should go in for the 805 or go in for the 703 or 704 for better bass.

One B&W dealer said that if I'm going with the 700 series, it is better to stick with Rotels but if I step into the 800 series, I need to upgrade my electronics to atleast Krells.

The 805 seemed to create a more open soundstage and was a little clearer than the 703 or 704 but it lacked the bass.

Thanks in advance!

Joey_V

I would go with 703.... mainly due to the FST driver - you dont get that with the 805 or the 704.

Hands down, between those choices, I would go 703 and dont look back.

Or the 802D.... but that's another can of worms.

crazy

Thanks for the comments - so 1 suggestion is to go with the 805 and the other to go with the 703

What are FST drivers and does the 805 not have them? Also, do the 704s have them?

crazy

Zero wrote:

Why not go with a Rotel RCD-1072 and match it with the 1062 (or was that 68) integrated amplifier. That mix is deadly together, showcasing at least what I feel (for what thats worth) to be the best Rotel sound available.

Yes, yes - that's what I was thinking as well!

Check out this review - seems impressive.

http://www.audioholics.com/productreviews/avhardware/Rotel-RA1062-RCD1072.html

Joey_V

crazy wrote:

Thanks for the comments - so 1 suggestion is to go with the 805 and the other to go with the 703

What are FST drivers and does the 805 not have them? Also, do the 704s have them?

The 805, 705, 704, or any of the lower 6xx or 3xx series do not have the FST. Only the 703, the 804, 803, 802, 801, 800 do.

Basically, it is what makes the BW a BW. The FST is far cleaner in reproducing the midrange than any of the other BW drivers... some say that it is the single best midrange driver in the world. Of course, that is debateable.



Go 703 or bust.

Rooz

I'd stick with your current CD/DVD player for now and just wait until HD DVD players come out or Blueray

crazy

Ok, let's see - revised budget ...

1) B&W 704 --> $3000
2) Rotel RA-1062 & RCD-1072 --> $1400

Total cost = $4400

crazy

Oh, one more question - if I stick with my Onkyo for the time being and just invest in the 704 speakers, will it sounds aweful? I have the Onkyo SX603

venomclan

Hi Crazy,
Congrats on the new job. If you do decide on B&W, here is my .02.
I currently have the CDM7NT's (previous 704) run by a Krell Kav250a. I love this combo.

The 703's or older CDM9NT's are probably the best bang for the buck. They will both have the FST midrange. If you listen to movies with this system, you will need to get a center channel with an FST also, new they go for around $2000 just for the center.

You Onkyo will not be enough for any B&W, especially the FST that need s alot of power. I agree with your dealer that Rotel will work with 700s (except the 703's) but you will need better equipment for the 800's. The 805s are nice but they do not have the FST, I would save up and get what you really want, rather than having to buy and sell gear all the time. Be sure to get a nice amp, that way you can get any speaker you want in the long run and be ok. The Krell KAV-400xi Integrated Amplifier is a nice peice also, but not as flexible as a seperate amp.

Check out audiogon.com,lots of good stuff used including B&W. Check out htguide.com, they have a B&W forum.
Venom

crazy

The www.audiogon.com website is just amazing! Thanks for the link.

I'm going to do some critical listening of the 703 vs. the 805 this weekend for sure.

I'm thinking of keeping the Polk Monitors for watching movies since they do sound really nice for movies and I'm not an avid movie watcher.

I should have added that my sole purpose of buying this system is to listen to music and not for movies or upgrading to 5.1 someday

Venomclan, you said that the Rotels will work with the 700s but not the 703 - do you need something more powerful for those?

I would save up and get what you really want, rather than having to buy and sell gear all the time. Be sure to get a nice amp, that way you can get any speaker you want in the long run and be ok. The Krell KAV-400xi Integrated Amplifier is a nice peice also, but not as flexible as a seperate amp.

I wish I could - I would get the 804s in that case :-) My friend has the 804s working with the Krell KAV-400xi and the Krell SACD player and it sounds heavenly. He also did buy $1000 interconnect cables to connect the SACD player to the amp and I thought that was a waste of money.

crazy

Zero wrote:

Unfortunately, theres probably not a damned thing on the planet that will make that 703 sound good. hehe

Well I would love to own a pair of 804s but that would get me way over budget since just the 804s and the Krell will cost me $6500 ($2K over budget!).

unc2701

Have you thought about Musical Fidelity? Their integrated's will compete with that krell, but come in a little cheaper.

miner

Crazy,
It is easier to sell used electronics vs speakers. I suggest getting the speakers you want now (since you will be keeping those). I started with B&W N804 with a Rotel RC-1070 pre & RB-1070 amp (130w/ch). This was a nice combo. When my amp blew a channel (at Rotel getting fixed now) I bought a RB-1092 (500w/ch). Then my sickness would not get healed - I replaced my RC-1070 with a RC-1090. Audiogon is a great place to purchase used equipment. I have contemplated selling my RC-1070 & RB-1070 for $850 but may hand down to my son in the future. The N805 with a ML Grotto or SVS sub is a great combo. I use a B&W ASW800 sub with my 804s. One thing I did not like with the Krell integrated amp I auditioned (400xi) was the noise I heard through the speakers when there was not a source playing. I understand all electronics will have noise but this was just unbelievably annoying. My next step up in electronics will be Classe'.

unc2701

venomclan wrote:

The Krell KAV-400xi Integrated Amplifier is a nice peice also, but not as flexible as a seperate amp.

The krell has both pre-outs and a bypass input. So- it can be used as either a seperate amp or a seperate pre amp.

venomclan

Hi Crazy,
The 703 is the only speaker in the 700 series that has the FST. The 703 is very similar to the 804's, and it is debatable whether they are worth the money over the 703s. Rotel has a very warm sound while Krell can sound aggressive, yet very controlled.

I think that it is better that this thread not turn into a Polk vs. B&W debate, even though Zero has tried to nudge the debate twice now. Listen for yourself. The Polk LSI's are also very good speakers, I prefer B&W sound for my application.

Whatever route you go, do not short change your system. Make sure you get the right gear for the right speakers. As for B&W critical listening, and I cannot stress this enough, MAKE SURE THE SPEAKER IS BROKEN IN. B&W drivers are very stiff when new, they need a minimum of 200 hours before they break in. If you listen to a new pair right out of the box, they will sound bad. A lot of times they get a bad rap because of this. Your friends' system is most likely broken in and that is the sound you will end up with.
Good luck, we are here if you need us.
Venom

unc2701

I, too, have been unimpressed with the B&W 703's- or anything short of the 800 series, to be honest. For the price, you can do better.

crazy

Thanks for the posts ... I guess atleast it is clear that in the debate that the 805s and the 704s are out. That makes things easier - except that now the 804s has entered the rink! Zero has made his/her choice quite clear. However, going with the ultimate sound makes sense ... maybe waiting a bit and getting the 804 instead of instant gratification going with the 704 or 703.

What's a good place to get B&Ws used? I guess eBay is not the best place but the audiogon.com place seems really nice.

I'm heading over to Boston this weekend to audition B&W speakers. I got a CD from greataudio.com and it is just amazing for auditioning gear.

When I heard the 704's I was blown away - but that's because I'm used to listening to the Polk Monitors! The 704 had the most amazing soundstage I have ever heard - it was 3D surrounding the speakers. Of course now that I'm used to the 804's in my friend's house, listening to the 703 or 704 might be a different experience all together.

btw ... I'm listening to some Piano music by a new group called The 5 Browns and they sound absolutely horrific on the Polk Monitor 50s.

crazy

I do really appreciate all the help I've got on this forum!!!

Thanks a lot!!!

... and to think that this is a Polk Audio forum :-)

crazy

Zero wrote:

In the end - I hope that with whatever you end up with puts a smile on your face.

I'm sure that whatever I get will put a smile on my face ... even the first time I bought the Polk Monitors it put a smile on my face. B&W is a whole new level. Even the 600s sound so good that I can't imagine what the 700s or the 800s will sound like in my humble place.

Zero wrote:

I still stand by the basic principle of waiting and getting it right. It will actually save you money in the long run.

And what is that? Or rather, how do you suggest getting it right?

Joey_V

I suppose Sean (Zero) and I are at odds with regards to the 703. Granted, it isnt their phenom speaker, but I think that it is better than the 805 or 704. Now, when you bring in the 804.... we start getting a little fuzzy. Bring in the 803D and things start to get expensive reaaaaal quick.

I would keep an eye on your wallet and make sure you dont overspend (then again, look what happened to me).... I would still take the 703 over any of the 805/704 variants.

I still love you Sean.

crazy

Zero - I totally agree with you. I must admit that I haven't spent any time with high end speakers except for Martin Logans and B&Ws (well also Lsi's).

I really love the sound of the B&W's and hence decided to limit my search to these. They also seem to be a common favorite in these forums.

Now when it comes to a budget, I am married and hence I need to stick to a budget. Otherwise I probably wouldn't have batted an eyelid and gone in for the 804s and searched for good electronics to do it justice. Now the price difference between the 703 and 804 isn't too bad, but it's the electronics that's where I'm feeling the pinch.

So, that's the reason why I even contemplated looking at 700 series. Infact I wasn't even looking at the 703 to start with, but the 704. I guess I also don't understand what the B&W site means when they say that the 705 are 2-way speakers, the 704 are 2 1/2 way speakers and the 703 are 3 way speakers.

From this thread, I'm convinced that the debate is really within to get the 703 or bite the bullet and get the 804s. So 805 and 704 seems to be out given the fact that they don't have the FST thing ... which defines the B&Ws.

I will surely update this forum after my trip Boston this Friday.

venomclan

Zero wrote:

Its just a shame that the 703 sounds like garbage. Then again.... oh nevermind.

Zero, I just think that your comment was off center. Crazy came to ask a question about which B&W to get, though being a Polk forum it may not be the best place to ask, but nonetheless we are a freindly forum and will oblige. I just think that your choice of words were harsh. B&W is far from garbage imho, a world class speaker, but I do not care what your opinion of them are. If you had said you did not like them because...they are overpriced...then thats fine. But saying they are garbage to someone who just picked them for whatever reason and really likes them is like a troll post.

A troll would come in and say "Polk LSI's sound like garbage, and he would be blasted. I am not calling you a troll Zero, we have both been here for a long time. Though I do not post much, I am here everyday since 1998. My sig says 2001 when they upgraded, but 8 years.

Crazy, do a lot of listening. Some prefer the 704's over the 703's, some the 704s over the 805s, it depends on what type of sound you like. They are all great for different reasons. I like the tightness of the 704s, very musical. Just dont rush into it, they are not going anywhere.
Venom

crazy

venomclan wrote:

Crazy, do a lot of listening. Some prefer the 704's over the 703's, some the 704s over the 805s, it depends on what type of sound you like. They are all great for different reasons. I like the tightness of the 704s, very musical. Just dont rush into it, they are not going anywhere.
Venom

Yes, I will do a lot of listening - but I have to say that I'm no audiophile (though I pretend to be one ). Hence the opinions of the valuable members at this forum are invaluable since most folks here are very knowledgable. While speakers are subjective and the more money you spend the better the speaker, the suggestions & posts on this thread have been extremely helpful so far in making a knowledgable decision ... and yes, I agree that it finally comes down to sitting and listening and deciding what I can afford. But the knowledge that I have already gained here (FST midranges etc.) has been extremely helpful.

I heard the 802Ds at a dealer - and they call the audition room, the "Divorce Room". I can understand why!

I respect Zero's opinion and listen to all opinions with an open mind. I may have to go in for the 700 series just because they're within my budget but I definitely am open to all suggestions since I will have to stick with these speakers for the next 7-8 years atleast unless I suddenly get really rich Hence I need to make a decision that I'll have to live with for the next decade!

Joey_V

Crazy,

I'll take credit for the FST thing... thank you very much.

Zero,

Talk to me babe.... why dont you like the 703 - pm me... oh, and where is the Norh review??

crazy

Joey_V wrote:

Talk to me babe.... why dont you like the 703 - pm me... oh, and where is the Norh review??

I would love to know as well

jltrdavis

Thought I would chime in here as a 804S owner. I auditioned the 704 on Bel Canto eVo gear, the 703 running off of a McIntosh setup, & 804S running on a Rotel RX-1050 stereo reciever and the 804S still (easily) sounded better on much cheaper gear. A Zero stated, don't get wrapped up in the electronics. Put your money in your speakers, upgrade upstream components over time.

crazy

jltrdavis wrote:

Thought I would chime in here as a 804S owner. I auditioned the 704 on Bel Canto eVo gear, the 703 running off of a McIntosh setup, & 804S running on a Rotel RX-1050 stereo reciever and the 804S still (easily) sounded better on much cheaper gear. A Zero stated, don't get wrapped up in the electronics. Put your money in your speakers, upgrade upstream components over time.

Thank you for the post - this definitely helps clear one thing. That speakers are what's most important. There seems to be be 2 point of view regarding this...

1 that believe that good electronics make or break a sytem and the other that believe that good speakers is whats most important. Like you and Zero, I strongly believe in the second.

My friend on the other hand said that if he didn't buy a $4500 Krell SACD player and $1000 interconnect cables, his system (804s and Krell integrated amp) would sound like ****. I totally disagreed - I said that a $700-800 CD system with $200-$300 interconnect cables would sound almost as good. He infact said that the Krell setup that he has would make my Polk Monitors sound unbelievable and better that B&W with say a Denon or Onkyo. How the heck can that be possible!!!

While this is a great conversation, I will most probably have to compromise on getting the 804s unless I can them for $3000 or less on eBay or used. In which case I am sort of inclined to go with the 805 at this point - mind you, I haven't auditioned them yet (waiting till Friday!).

Since I'm planning to hold onto the Polks for multichannel listening pleasure and for movies, getting the smaller speakers might also be condusive to placing them in our smaller listening room.

venomclan

No equipment can make a bad speaker sound good (Bose), but good equipment can make a great speaker sound better. I agree with putting the $ in the speakers first. You can then decide what level of gear to go with.

Note: There are also plenty of "giant Killer" gear out there that we find from time to time. More $ does not always mean better. Synergy plays a big part also. There are times when expensice speakers are paired with expensive speakers and do not sound that good for some reason or another. Do some research to see what works best with what. Rotel and B&W mate well together as does Classe, they are all owned by the same company.
Venom

Joey_V

What happened to the 703 thing? The 805s are waaaay overpriced to my ears. IMO.

No FST, small... nothing, and for how much? $2000???

crazy

Greetings all,

I'm back! I spent an amazing 5 hours at a great store in Boston listening to all kinds of speakers with different combinations of electronics and I think I've made my (tentative) decision.

So here goes ...

After an extensive listening session with several speakers of different brands and electronics, I decided on either the B&W 703 or 704 with matching Rotel electronics. I kept the 804s in the audition room so that I could compare the 804s with the 700s.

Through the Rotel gear, the 703 sounded very very close to the 804s. I honestly couldn't tell much difference between the 2 except the 804s was perhaps a little clearer - but again that could have been physiological.

The 704 also sounded great. Infact it was had to differentiate between the 3 using these electronics. The 703 sounded a little punchier and perhaps had a little more bass than the 704. But quite honestly, the sound of the 704 was rather good - good enough not to justify spending the extra $800 on the 703 or the extra $1800 on the 804s.

Then came the shocker – just for kicks, we switched the Rotels (Rotel CD player, pre-amp and 120 Watts/channel amp) with the Krell 400Xi integrated amplifier and immediately all the speakers started to sing! The bass was more defined and there was a dramatic improvement in sound quality and better sound- staging. The Krell also gave a more 3D sound that the Rotels. I was amazed by this extraordinary change in sound quality by switching to the Krell (we still used the Rotel CD player).

Realizing that the 804s is probably out of budget, I auditioned the 704 and the 703 and quite honestly, the 704 sounded great. The 703 probably sounded a little better but I couldn’t tell if it were my ears or purely physiological. Either ways, they both sounded amazing.

Then, we hooked up the B&W 804s with the Rotel gear and compared it with the 704 and Krell gear. Amazingly, the 704 with the Krell sounded better that the 804s with the Rotel. It wasn’t even close!!

So the big difference maker in this case weren’t the speakers, but the electronics – this went against my belief that speakers always make the biggest difference.

Now, back to my budget – as you recall it was around $4500. Based on this new discovery, it seems that if I go with the Krell ($2500) and the 704 ($2200) and stick to my Onkyo CD player for the time being, I will still be within budget. It also seems that the Krell’s output quality warrants going in for better electronics and perhaps not the best speakers that my budget would allow – for the best possible sound quality.

Does all this make any sense??!!

crazy

One more note - I would definitely love to go with the 703 vs. the 704.

But, give the extra I need to spend for the Krell and the fact that I need to stick to my budget, it is a hard compromise. If I had to chose between ...

1) 703 and Rotel electronics
2) 704 and Krell integrated amp

... the sound of the 2nd option seems better - am I totally out of whack???