Bi-wire or not To Bi-Wire???

jdelan
jdelan Posts: 244
edited August 2001 in Technical/Setup
Just got my new CS400I and now comes to the Dilemma to Bi-wire or not to...

read lots of places about it and guess I should ask the people that actually use the speaker...

Will Bi_wiring the Speaker mark much of a difference???

Current set-up

Receiver---Pioneer Elite 36tx.
Center
CS400i
Front
RT35I
Rears
Soon to be fx300i
Sub
PSW350

Also, is it better to buy a Bi-wire cable or just run 2 cables from one output or 2 cables from A-B...

And anyone know a good place to buy some Bi-Wire Cable??? I was checking out Monster Z-2 Center Bi-Wire...

Comments, suggestions???

Thanks!
Post edited by jdelan on
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Comments

  • TrappedUnder Ice
    TrappedUnder Ice Posts: 975
    edited August 2001
    It may or may not make that big of a diff.. I have my mains and my center bi-wired... one thing for sure...it wont- or should not (ya never know...) worsen the sound:cool:
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  • BobMcG
    BobMcG Posts: 1,585
    edited August 2001
    Bi-wiring a simple receiver driven HT?

    You could if you really wanted to but, IMHO, you'd be better off saving your money.
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  • Oskarom
    Oskarom Posts: 9
    edited August 2001
    i am sorry but what is Bi-wire???
    Best Regards
    Oskar Omarsson.-
    My HT
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  • TrappedUnder Ice
    TrappedUnder Ice Posts: 975
    edited August 2001
    Actualy ...Bi-wireing is an easy cheap upgrade that could add to the quality of the system.. Even on simple set-ups. thats almost arrogance to say otherwise
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  • jdelan
    jdelan Posts: 244
    edited August 2001
    Oskarom, here is an Online writeup of Bi-Wiring.
    http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/cables/messages/4953.html
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  • BobMcG
    BobMcG Posts: 1,585
    edited August 2001
    You by any chance taking a shot at me with your little "almost arrogance to say otherwise' comment?
    If you are, you're way out of line on this one. I'm not the "all knowing" and or "last word in audio' but I'm also very far from being new to audio tinkering and tweaking.

    "..could add to the quality of the system.. Even on simple set-ups" Big key word here is COULD.

    Once again this is IMHO: Not everyone is going to hear a difference or benifit from bi-wiring, especially with the center speaker on simple set-ups. There are better upgrades for more audible results that can be made. I can just about guarantee you, you'll get far better (audible) results with componant damping and vibration isolation than you'll get from bi-wiring your center channel speaker. As I said, you CAN do it if you really wanted to. I'm not saying NOT to. It's just there are better ways to spend your money sometimes (priorities?).

    And to simply make the statement that bi-wiring IS a "cheap upgrade" isn't true. It CAN be affordable or relatively inexpensive though. It pretty much depends on the cost of the cables used.

    And: Bi-wired mains and center together, would be more likely to give more satisfying results on any system.
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  • jdelan
    jdelan Posts: 244
    edited August 2001
    Not really asking for an argument ya'll just some suggestions on if it would be worth it to bi-wire the Center Speaker...
    What I have heard and read is that it will not really improve the sound quality, but if used in conjunction with other improvements it will.

    Correct?
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  • PETERNG
    PETERNG Posts: 918
    edited August 2001
    If your speakers have the provisions for bi-wire, do it, it will improve the sound quality that you can actually hear... MC Z cables are good, I used both Z and M cables on mine... Bob is correct about this upgrade isn't cheap if you're thinking about using premium speaker cables such as the MC Z...
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  • jdelan
    jdelan Posts: 244
    edited August 2001
    Peter,
    Thanks. It's only the Center that I am able to BiWire right now...Maybe in a few years I can add something else but The room is kinda small, about 10x16 or so...

    Know a good site where i can buy some MC Z or M BiWire cables? Should I try the local Shop or you know somewhere online???

    Thanks
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  • PETERNG
    PETERNG Posts: 918
    edited August 2001
    Check out this website:
    http://www.audiolinks.nl/a.htm
    On monstercable.com, they have a list of most of the online dealers. You may want to take a look at that...
    Most stores and online stores sale MC cables at full retail prices, I do now know any store that sale them at discount prices. I spent quite a bit of money upgrading all of my speaker cables, and I'm happy with the results...
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  • TrappedUnder Ice
    TrappedUnder Ice Posts: 975
    edited August 2001
    I dont plan on starting a war with you Bob... but like I said in my first post- it may or may not help..but it would not decrease the sound quality...infact...its probably one of the easiest and cheapest upgrades you could possibly do. If you dont hear a difference..big deal...what have you spent on extra wire... cheap 10$...expensive...60$ Even if it makes one DVD sound better... IMO its worth it..

    There is never an absloute to anything... but with out experimentation.... we'd still be using the cotten gin :)

    Peace out.
    Thomas:cool:
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  • weavercr
    weavercr Posts: 289
    edited August 2001
    I find that a lot of people test biwiring against single wiring using wire of the same gage. THAT is not a fair comparison. Try testing bi wired with 2 16 gage wires against single 10 gage wire of the same brand. I'll bet you cant tell a difference. There a 4 major factors on properties of audio cables and wire resistance has a big impact on performance, wire gage has a direct effect on this property. Single 16 gage to 12 gage wire comparison is easy to tell a difference. Dual 16 gage wire and single 10 gage contain apx the same amount of wire. Compare it that way. give single vs. bi wire a fair comparison... I know this may upset a few.
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  • PETERNG
    PETERNG Posts: 918
    edited August 2001
    I have not read any report saying the results are the same for bi-wire option and the single connection. If the speaker manufacturer provided the bi-wire provisions on the speakers that you bought, you should use them in order to get the full benefits of the speakers. They are there for a reason, as some of our friends in here pointed out, bi-wiring is the most affordable way to increase the performance of the system, the next option is to bi-amp, but it will cost more to do that... use good speaker cables for the connection, you should get the good results.... :)
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  • George Grand
    George Grand Posts: 12,258
    edited August 2001
    It is easy to forget the broad spectrum of users on this forum when replying/giving advice.

    Bob's response to me is the most sane. Everyone else SEEMS to agree, that the listener MAY hear better results. Fine.

    With no fingerpointing at the original poster, I have seen far too many instances on this forum where individuals would benefit a lot further sonically if they pulled their heads out of their asses rather than bi-wire. Plenty of cases where detailed questions are asked, answers are given, and the end result is to find out my wife won't let me place them that way or something like that.
    Lot of advice comes from people who have never owned anything but receiver based home theater rigs, and are fairly new to the entire audio hobby. Some of the posts that come from people like this are tough to take.

    This forum used to be a lot more audio oriented. It now appears to be nothing more than a home theater forum. I guess this is okay from a number of people's perspectives. It's probably the natural progression that the whole thing needs to take. It would probably be okay with the old hardcore audio guys too (I suspect the real good engineers and old audio guys don't even post, they just read and chuckle), as soon as some of the rest realize this stuff started a long time ago. That subwoofer/satellite technology has been around forever, that 1960's era Fisher receivers had center and rear channel outputs, that bi-wiring, bi-amping, tri-amping, have been around forever.

    Everybody jumps on and says do this, do that. Anybody asked if the speakers are even in the right position in the room (no offense to original poster)? If you assume these things on this forum you will come to be surprised.

    I think the original poster should save his money for an amplifier based HT system, before spending more money on tweaks that MAY or MAY NOT have a worthwhile effect. Tweaks that are GENERALLY RESERVED for separates based systems.

    George Grand (of the Jersey Grand's)
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  • jdelan
    jdelan Posts: 244
    edited August 2001
    Well, George, Why the hell do you think I asked the question?
    I asked because I seek to learn. I am not Mr Audio, I am not Mr Home Theater, I am not Some young know it all, I am just someone trying to get the most out of what I got...That is it, nothing more, nothing less. Never claimed to be anything else...
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  • George Grand
    George Grand Posts: 12,258
    edited August 2001
    Jdelan,
    In no way was I trying to point a finger at YOU. Just the people who IMMEDIATELY respond with answers/advice that are largely worthless until other variables get satisfied. I was truly hoping you did not take it the wrong way.

    George Grand (of the Jersey Grand's)
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  • TrappedUnder Ice
    TrappedUnder Ice Posts: 975
    edited August 2001
    Then again...opinions are like as*holes...everyone has them...and they all smell :)
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  • PETERNG
    PETERNG Posts: 918
    edited August 2001
    jdelan
    I think you should at least give it a try... use some of the existing decent speaker cables that you have... if it works for you, then you may want to consider to buy the better quality cables to replace...
    I'm not trying to be Mr this or Mr that, I'm still learning, to me no question is stupid or dump, It's stupid if you don't ask...I'm just simply answer your question, I've done that and and the result is great... I do want to apologize to something I said in here that upset others...
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  • weavercr
    weavercr Posts: 289
    edited August 2001
    I do want to apologize for upsetting others... being an old hard core audio guy from the early 70's I normally didnt post much, but I have seen so much of this jump on the band wagon of Bi-wiring I decided to post a comment. Like George said there are many variables to audio setups. I have a dedicated sound room (not Home theater,not polk) Krell and b&W (Sorry Polk) so I dont have the wife doesnt like influences. I am not saying that bi wiring does not make a difference. just that how it is tested and the reference to being a cheap upgrade. my audio cables were 600.00 for the pair. I found the difference between bi wired and not bi wired to decrease with the better the quality of the audio cable used.

    I just didnt like most of the test I have seen in articals and audio stores where all the test cables are the same gage/type of wire. Next time you see this demonstrated some where have the demonstrator put the jumper back on between the speaker terminal pairs with both wires still connected. check out the results then.

    My home theater is B&K 307 with Polk (CS400i, 4- rt55i ,2 psw350 and cs245) Bi Wired using cheap Z1 monster cable, wife controls placement of speakers.
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  • BobMcG
    BobMcG Posts: 1,585
    edited August 2001
    G.,

    We've been through the question of biwiring how many times over the last couple of years? Do we not try to stay pretty much in the middle of the road on it? You know... great for some, maybe not so great for others and, it's up to you... No matter what you say it's wrong somewhere.


    weavercr,

    It's nice to hear from another audiophile. Like you, G. and I, and a few others have dedicated HSs as well as HTs.

    I know it must sound to some like I don't believe in biwiring or something. Nothing could be further from the truth. My HS amps are biwired with 4' 'AudioQuest "double Dragons". (Now someone tell me that's a cheap upgrade.) The mains on my HT are triwired, with the top of the 3000sats using 8' AudioQuest "Cobalts" and the sat's lowers using two 8' runs of AudioQuest "Blues" (as single wires.) The 400i center is biwired with two 8' runs of AudioQuest "Blues".

    I wire this way for two main reasons:

    A: I have the cables to do it. Although the double Dragons were purchased just for my main HS, all the wires on the HT and my secondary HS are spare, handed down cables from past projects. (And still doesn't begin to exhaust my spare cable supplies.)

    B: All three of my systems are built with total separates, and clearly benifit from biwiring with good cables.

    One more time for the road... not everyone will reap benifits from simply biwiring their center channel speaker on a rcvr based HT. I only "suggest" investing/saving the money for other improvements AT LEAST untill the entire front can be biwired perhaps... But! Don't let me stop you... I'm not saying "DON'T do it", by all means, do as you see fit, it's your system.

    That's the last from me on this.
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