LSi7 vs. RT12

EricT43

I'm interested in upgrading my front speakers. I'm using a pair of RT12's that I purchased 8-10 years ago. Here's my current set up:
- RT12 fronts
- CSi40 center
- f/x300 rear
- Velodyne CT120
- Denon 3802

I'm interested in smaller speakers for a couple of reasons: first, I figure for a given price the smaller speakers should be better quality and since I'm running a sub size shouldn't be as critical. Second, the WAF.

Anyone know how LSi7 or even LSi9 would compare in sound quality to my RT12's? There's no place in my area that carries LSi to audition.

cfrizz

Hi Eric welcome! The LSI 7's would sound significantly better. However, there are several things you need to be aware of.

1. You would have to buy a separate amplifier to power them. The Denon would go into protect mode at loud levels. But it does have preouts so at least you don't need a new receiver! (I have the same receiver.)

2. The rest of your speakers would no longer be timbre matched with the LSI's 7's so it would not sound the same across all of the speakers. This may or may not bother you. Only your ears will know for sure.

I don't have matching speakers & it sounds just fine to me!

You will absolutely love the 7's for music!!!! It just might start you on an unexpected upgrade path you didn't intend to take!

Do a search on LSI's & receivers for more indepth discussion!

aaharvel

Eric it's very possible that the Denon 3802 will be able to handle those LSi7's all on it's own. They're actually rated closer to 6ohms than 4.

However, Cathy may be right- you might need an extra amp for these..

EricT43

Interesting...didn't know about the low impedance. That could throw a wrench in the works, since I don't have the budget for an amp too. Although in this thread, someone ran an LSi setup with a Denon 4806 with no problems (see last couple posts). Granted, my reciever is not a 4806, but...

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37942&highlight=lsi+receiver

okiepolkie

I really like the Polk speakers from that series. My first set of Polk home speakers were RT5's. I've upgraded from the Rt5's to the LSi7's and to me, it is a noticable change.

You do not have to have an external amplifier for the 7's, although it would be an improvement if/when you did. I've run LSi7's on different Yamaha a couple receivers for over a year without any problems. I don't run them very hard, so my amplifier does not show any signs of problems.

The only other speaker you might want to change in the future would be to get the LSiC or another LSi7 to use as your center channel. I've used FXi30's in the rear with my 7's and didn't have much of a timbre problem.

As far as listening to the LSi's, there may be a forum member close to you where you demo them. I ran into the same problem when I bought mine.

BTW, welcome to the forum.

McLoki

EricT43 wrote:

There's no place in my area that carries LSi to audition.

So, where is your area?

Michael

(BTW - anywhere near central Illinois, you are welcome to stop by for a listen. )

EricT43

Thanks for the invitation, but I live in El Paso, Texas. A bit far from IL...

EricT43

Well, I've decided to give the LSi7's a try. Buying a used pair in cherry for a pretty good price.

Once I get them I'll do a side-by-side comparison and let you all know my comments. Actually, it will be more of a top-to-bottom comparison, I'll probably set them on top of the RT12's until I can get some stands!

steveinaz

I think you'll like the midrange/treble of the 7 better, but you're gonna miss the big tower "scale"...

EricT43

Steve, you may be right. We'll see if my sub is up to the task. Either way, after so long with the same speakers, I'm pretty excited just to be trying something new. And if they don't work out for my main system, I'll put them in the home office

rnp614

I just want to comment on the power situation; I think that the Denon should be fine, as I have my 7s hooked up to a Panasonix XR55 and they still sound phenomenal.

EricT43

Thanks for the feedback on that. I went ahead and bought an amp too (Adcom 5300). It's rated at 125W into 4 ohms, but the Denon is rated at 105W into 8, so theoretically the Denon should have more power than the amp... I'll test them with and without the amp to see how it compares.

jrlouie

steveinaz wrote:

I think you'll like the midrange/treble of the 7 better, but you're gonna miss the big tower "scale"...

Yep, I agree about the possibility of missing the big tower scale. I think being able to use the 7's with your receiver is very subjective. You can probably read on this forum a lot about Lsi's and they should only be with an external amp. You'll probably also find a few that like their receiver with them. I think the more appropriate concept is what you expect out of them. How loud do you listen? How attentive is your ear to sonic details?
Are they going to sound like your towers via a receiver, probably not. But you have a sub, hopefully one that matches the quality of the Lsi's (otherwise you might get upgradeitis). You may find yourself then happy with the Lsi's, sub, and receiver. Who knows.
But if you're like me, you'll wonder what are these really capable of. Then you want to throw more juice at them. Then you put some serious power and whoa, look at 'em go. And then you're hooked on upgrading
Can you listen to them with your receiver, sure. Will they sound decent to most people, yeah. Will they be sounding their best, no. Do we all whole heartedly want you to treat them with respect and give them the most power you can afford, yes
I just read that you also bought an Adcom. Hopefully that or your Denon works out for you. Your ears are what matters, and the speakers should last years (plenty of time for upgrades).

EricT43

jrlouie, good comments, thanks.

I received the Adcom yesterday. I haven't received the LSi7's yet, so I hooked the amp up to my RT12's.

I wasn't really expecting any difference, since the Adcom is actually rated lower than my Denon. I started listening to my Fourplay CD, and at first, I couldn't really notice any change with the amp. Then some VERY nice things started to reach my ears. Certain instruments seemed quieter than before...I thought "hmm that's strange, I guess it's because there's less power", but then when the main piano line kicked in, wow What I was hearing was the lack of compression that I was getting from the Denon!

Another thing that knocked me out was that same piano line, it actually pans from left to right throughout the song, and I never heard that before. The imaging was amazing.

Later on I put in Diana Krall and listened to Popsicle Toes. During the intro, just before Diana starts to sing, the drummer hits his snare a few times. Not hard, these are fairly light snare hits, but even so they had PUNCH to them. It was so exciting to listen to.

This is the first time I've ever used an external amp. I bought it more as an experiment really, just to see for myself what an external amp could do. Even though it doesn't have a whole lot of power, aaharvel was offering it for a great price, so I decided to give it a try. I'm never going back!

Now I just drool thinking about what a 5x200 amp would do for War of the Worlds

aaharvel

glad you like it Eric. I know i'm going to miss it, especially for 2ch. music but alas.

oh and btw let me know how the Adcom and LSI7's sound together. This was my original plan to go 2ch. with this exact setup when I moved to a bigger place. Instead, it was the other way around.

EricT43

Alrighty folks, I got the LSi7's yesterday. Unfortunately, I only had about 15 minutes to hook them up and listen, so these are my very initial impressions.

They are nice-looking speakers, especially if you like the piano-gloss thing. Mine have the cherry sides. Personally, I would have preferred an all-cherry cabinet, but still they look very nice. And the build quality seems very good. At around 22 lbs each, they are pretty solid.

When I finished my listening session, I realized I had the L and R speakers backwards. The tweeters were on the outsides instead of the insides. I'm not sure how much difference this makes, but I'll fix it today.

Right away I noticed two things. The upper midrange was a lot more prominent than with the RT12's. And it seemed that some of the bass notes practically disappeared. Not just less, but practically no mid-bass.

I'm running the system with a Velodyne CT120 subwoofer, using my Denon 3802's bass management to cross over at 80 Hz. I suppose I need to experiment with different crossover frequencies with the LSi7's. With the RT12's, the sub blended fairly seamlessly, and I couldn't really tell where the speakers left off and the sub picked up. With the LSi7's, I definitely am lacking some low-end substance. Kick drum still sounds nice, and when the bassist goes down on the B-string it sounds pretty good, but a lot of the bass is missing.

I was expecting lighter bass with the smaller speakers, but the combination of missing low-end information with enhanced upper midrange resulted in a fairly thin sound.

Keep in mind this was only 10-15 minutes of listening with no setup changes, so I'm not giving up yet. I hope to have some time to experiment more tonight.

In the meantime any suggestions on better integrating these speakers with my sub are welcome.

steveinaz

Sometimes what can appear to sound "thin" is actually a better sorted crossover, eliminating alot of hash. Give them a good month to break-in, then listen critically.

The 7 is definitely going to have less deep-reaching bass, but most music should sound just fine, you're just used to hearing an over-abundance of bass.

EricT43

Steve, they are used speakers, so they are broken in already (I assume), but yes, I intend to listen for a while before making any conclusions.

cfrizz

Eric, our Denon's do not have the power to push those 7's to their full potential. That is why the bass sounds weak! Get a separate amplifier to hook into the preouts on the back of the Denon & you will be amazed at the difference.

EricT43

cfrizz,
Look a few posts up, you'll see I added an Adcom 5300 to my system. Rated at 125wpc x 2 into 4 ohms. Should be plenty to run the 7's, right?

sickicw

well its not so much how many amps into 4 ohm that makes a good amp, but the ability to double power when you drop the impedance in half(from 8 ohms to around 2 ohms). I would say your amp is better than a reciver, but could be much better.

I had an outlaw amp that is rated about the same as yours and when i switch it for a rockfordfosgate that could double the power as your impedance halfs, i heard much more bass from my lsi9s. The 9s are a bit harder to push than the 7s, but i would think that a better amp would help

cfrizz

Yeah the Adcom is a nice improvement. It really just might be a case of getting used to the different sound and or placement.

aaharvel

Eric, that Adcom will push those lsi7's with no trouble whatsoever. Perhaps you're just used to a different type of speaker all together, one with lower bass response, and overall an entirely different timbre of sound.

Why don't you try lowering your crossover to 60hz? Imo 80hz is too high for a speaker whose frequency response goes down to 50hz at -3db. Rule of thumb- use a crossover setting that's about 10db higher than the limits of the speakers to get all of the sound they were designed for. As with the rti4, the lsi7's powerport is tuned to 54hz, but it doesn't really matter when you have those nice speakers set to 80hz does it? Too many people take the 80hz crossover "standard" too seriously just because THX says so. Rubbish.

jrlouie

I wonder if the Lsi7's are more revealing in the sense that they are now showing "thinness" that is up-stream. I really don't know, but maybe a more experienced polkie can confirm or reject the thought. Synergy?

EricT43

Thanks for all the great ideas, keep em coming

aaharvel-
The lowest crossover point on the 3802 is 80 Hz, so I can't go any lower I guess I could use the sub's speaker-level crossover, but I'm not sure what that will do with the sound quality.

jrlouie,
You might be on to something there...although I dont' think the RT12's are creating frequencies that aren't there in the source material. Certainly my Oppo DVD player is not the best CD transport, but I'm using a digital connection, so the Denon is doing the D/A conversion. Also not ideal, but it shouldn't be too shabby either.

EricT43

I got a chance to do about an hour of listening last night. I listened to Fourplay's Heartfelt CD all the way through.

Right now I think that perhaps I was just not hearing what I was used to hearing. The low end was not as prominent as with the RT12's, but is was certainly present and seemed to have a smooth response all the way down the frequency range. There were a few very low notes (like B-string range) that jumped out, so I think I need to tweak the level on my subwoofer a bit. Those certainly weren't coming from the 7's

I even put the 7's into full-range mode and really it didn't sound very different from when I had the sub on, except for missing a little thump on the bottom. I think in a small room, these speakers would do just fine on their own, as long as you're not into hip-hop.

Further experimenting planned for tonight. On deck is my new Chick Corea CD, The Ultimate Adventure (see my review in the music area).

gyusher

aaharvel wrote:

Eric, that Adcom will push those lsi7's with no trouble whatsoever. Perhaps you're just used to a different type of speaker all together, one with lower bass response, and overall an entirely different timbre of sound.

Why don't you try lowering your crossover to 60hz? Imo 80hz is too high for a speaker whose frequency response goes down to 50hz at -3db. Rule of thumb- use a crossover setting that's about 10db higher than the limits of the speakers to get all of the sound they were designed for. As with the rti4, the lsi7's powerport is tuned to 54hz, but it doesn't really matter when you have those nice speakers set to 80hz does it? Too many people take the 80hz crossover "standard" too seriously just because THX says so. Rubbish.

The lower you set your crossover the more LFE information you loose. . . I do agree with stereo running your crossover lower however. . .

McLoki

gyusher wrote:

The lower you set your crossover the more LFE information you loose. . . I do agree with stereo running your crossover lower however. . .

I don't understand this comment.

The lower your crossover the more bass your speaker has to produce (and the less your sub has to take over for), but the information contained on the LFE channel will be sent to your subwoofer reguardless of the crossover setting.

You should never lose bass information unless you set the crossover lower than your main speaker can produce.

Michael

gyusher

McLoki wrote:

I don't understand this comment.

The lower your crossover the more bass your speaker has to produce (and the less your sub has to take over for), but the information contained on the LFE channel will be sent to your subwoofer reguardless of the crossover setting.

You should never lose bass information unless you set the crossover lower than your main speaker can produce.

Michael

Depending on your sub settings. . .If you have it set "LFE" only the crossover will take lfe info away depending on how high the setting. If you have it set "LFE@Mains" then you might be correct. . .However it is my understanding that you would still loose LFE info above your X-Over setting.

I will post the link if I can find it. . . I have a 3806 Denon and have personally observed this in my room. . .

EricT43

For what it's worth, I have my speakers set to SMALL, crossover at 80 Hz, LFE to sub only, and my sub's internal crossover is set to DIRECT (bypassed). So the Denon 3802 is handling all the bass.

When I listen to music I run the receiver in DIRECT mode, with the bass management still active. This mode basically just bypasses the DSP and tone controls, from what I understand.

adam2434

gyusher wrote:

Depending on your sub settings. . .If you have it set "LFE" only the crossover will take lfe info away depending on how high the setting. If you have it set "LFE@Mains" then you might be correct. . .However it is my understanding that you would still loose LFE info above your X-Over setting.

I will post the link if I can find it. . . I have a 3806 Denon and have personally observed this in my room. . .

I think the only way you can loose LFE is if you're using the low pass crossover in the sub. For example, if you had your sub's crossover set to 60 Hz, you would loose LFE content above that point (and I've read that LFE content can go up to 100 Hz or more).

For HT, that's one of the reasons why it's best to use the unfiltered LFE input on the sub, bypass the sub's low pass, or turn it all the way up as a last resort.

As Michael said, your processor/receiver crossover setting should not impact the LFE channel; what's there is determined by what the engineer put there.