Auto-setup (Onkyo)

crazy

Greetings,

I recently purchased an Onkyo receiver and used the auto-setup to configure my speakers. I was interested in knowing how many of you use the auto-setup verses trying to set them up (configure) manually?

During the auto-setup, I noticed 2 things which didn't seem right. The Onkyo measured the distance extremely accurately. However, it detected my front 2 speakers as "SMALL" - they are Monitor 50's.

Also, it set the sub-woofer level at +10dB while all the other speakers were like -1 to -2dB

While I kept most of the auto-setup recommendation, I configured the front speakers to show as "LARGE" (there were only 2 options). I turned "double-bass" ON (which let's the system use the sub-woofer for additional bass during stereo mode) and set the subwoofer volume at +2dB instead of +10db.

Finally, when I looked at the EQ, I couldn't make out if they were set correctly or not - so I just left it as is. Are there any recommendations for good EQ settings for speakers (assuming one listens to a lot of rock/ jazz etc.)

Thanks!

adam2434

You may want to set the volume higher on the sub itself, and then try the auto calibration again. The fact that your receiver "wants" to set the sub at +10 seems like your sub volume is too low. Maybe try setting the sub's volume to about 1/2 of max and try the auto calibration again. I personally like to get the sub calibrated to around 0 dB and then run it about + 3-4 dB hotter for movies.

Regarding the EQ, I turn off the auto EQ settings on my receiver because I think it sounds better without any EQ. The auto EQ "wanted" to take the bass and mid bass freqs down several dBs, which makes things sound too thin to my ears - maybe technically flatter, but too thin for me. You may want to try it with and without the EQ.

Once you get the sub calibrated properly, you may want to go back to trying your fronts as "small", with a crossover setting in the 60-80 Hz range. I would personally only use the "double bass" setting as a last resort.

crazy

adam2434 wrote:

I would personally only use the "double bass" setting as a last resort.

A lot of folks on this forum suggested using the Monitor series with a sub-woofer for a fuller sound. Is there an alternate way to use the sub-woofer with a stereo setup?

Thanks!

adam2434

So, the bass management in your Onkyo doesn't work in stereo?

That is, on the receiver, set the front speakers to small, sub on, crossover to 60-80 Hz. This works on my Pioneer Elite. If it doesn't work on Onkyo's, then I'd say that is a design flaw, and there may not be a way to relieve your speakers and receiver from playing all the bass freqs in stereo, unless your sub has a high pass filter on its speaker level outs. In this case, you would run the "speaker level" hook-up approach and run your fronts as large.

aaharvel

crazy wrote:

Greetings,

I recently purchased an Onkyo receiver and used the auto-setup to configure my speakers. I was interested in knowing how many of you use the auto-setup verses trying to set them up (configure) manually?

During the auto-setup, I noticed 2 things which didn't seem right. The Onkyo measured the distance extremely accurately. However, it detected my front 2 speakers as "SMALL" - they are Monitor 50's.

Also, it set the sub-woofer level at +10dB while all the other speakers were like -1 to -2dB

While I kept most of the auto-setup recommendation, I configured the front speakers to show as "LARGE" (there were only 2 options). I turned "double-bass" ON (which let's the system use the sub-woofer for additional bass during stereo mode) and set the subwoofer volume at +2dB instead of +10db.

Finally, when I looked at the EQ, I couldn't make out if they were set correctly or not - so I just left it as is. Are there any recommendations for good EQ settings for speakers (assuming one listens to a lot of rock/ jazz etc.)

Thanks!

The Monitor 50's belong on "small" (60hz crossover). They can't produce bass frequencies passed 45/50hz. the +10 for your sub is standard fare for adding 10db. of headroom to compliment LFE. If it's too much, turn it back to 0db.

crazy

I ran the auto-setup again and this is what I got:

Front (Monitor 50's)

Left --> SMALL --> 11ft --> 0dB
Right --> SMALL --> 11ft --> -1dB

Center (CS1) --> SMALL --> 12ft --> -2dB

Surround (Monitor 30's)

Left --> SMALL -->3ft --> -3dB
Right --> SMALL -->3ft --> -3dB

Subwoofer (PSW10) --> 10ft --> +4dB

Crossover 150Hz

btw ... what is crossover??

aaharvel

the crossover's the point where certain frequencies are being passed down to other speakers that can better handle those frequencies.

Your Onkyo is passing anything below 150hz from the monitor 50's to the sub.
That's not good at all.

Override the damn auto setup, set all of your speakers to "SMALL" and 80hz (for now), go out and buy a Radio Shack SPL meter (the analog one) to set speaker levels manually.

Auto-setups are for people looking for a quick fix, not necessarily a good one.
Harman Kardon's EZset is one of the best in the business and it's still not 100% accurate. But at least it doesn't say my speakers need a 150hz crossover.. jesus christ.. :rolleyes:

aaharvel

better yet, if you want to save the $30 on the SPL meter, simply keep the speaker levels as they are and manually adjust the crossover from 150hz all speakers to 80hz all speakers. Keep all speakers as "Small". :cool:

crazy

I set the crossover to 80Hz - hopefully that will help things a little

aaharvel wrote:

Keep all speakers as "Small". :cool:

So what does that do? i.e. keeping all speakers as small?

Thanks for the helpful setup tips. I will run down to Radioshack over the weekend to get the manual reader.

aaharvel

keeping speakers as small prevents signals below the crossover setting from seeping into your speakers. In your setup, 80hz (maybe 60hz but doubt it) is the best setting. When those speakers are set to "small", the receiver enables it's crossover, thus sending anything below 80hz to your subwoofer- where it belongs.

regarding your sub, hook it up with one RCA cable from the receivers "SUB OUT" jack to the subwoofer "SUB IN" jack- either the L or R jack will be fine. Then either switch subwoofers crossover dial to 80hz, or bypass it altogether.

adam2434

Yep, running the speakers small with a 60-80 Hz crossover is what I've been saying all along too.

Looks like you boosted the volume knob on your sub too, now that you're at +4 dB vs. +10.

Report back when you get a chance to listen with these settings in stereo. Does the bass management work in stereo (does the sub play) and is the sound better when you play at high volumes (per your other thread)?

Just curious, what's the lowest crossover setting on your Onkyo. If it's 60 Hz, you may want to give that a listen in stereo. Once you get the hang of all these settings, you may find that you like to switch the crossover to around 60 Hz for stereo music and put it back to 80 Hz for surround.

You may also find that you like to turn the sub level on the receiver a few dBs up for movies.

adam2434

Just had another thought - I don't think your sub has a crossover bypass; If I'm right, you will actually want to set the crossover on the sub to max, to minimize double filtering.

aaharvel

good point adam, or you could do what I do (a less popular route) and stagger BOTH crossovers to work simultaneously. The only reason I say this is b/c most high pass filters in subs do not have a steep crossover slope. So turning the sub's crossover up all the way/bypassing it usually results in subs playing frequencies over 120db because most use an ineffective 6db. per octave slope.

I posted a thread here regarding this not too long ago.
IMO any crossover with less than an 18db/octave slope is not steep enough.

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36742&highlight=making+case

for my system i use the 60hz crossover in my receiver, all speakers set to "SMALL" and i also use my subs crossover- set to 60hz. as well. No bass cancellations, no double filtering..

adam2434

aaharvel wrote:

good point adam, or you could do what I do (a less popular route) and stagger BOTH crossovers to work simultaneously. The only reason I say this is b/c most high pass filters in subs do not have a steep crossover slope. So turning the sub's crossover up all the way/bypassing it usually results in subs playing frequencies over 120db because most use an ineffective 6db. per octave slope.

Maybe I'm a little confused now too.

If you set your speakers to small and use, say, a 60 Hz crossover in your receiver, why would the sub "see" any 120 Hz signal. Wouldn't the crossover slope in the receiver actually determine what freq's get to the sub. Thus, the reason for setting the sub's crossover to max, would be to "get out of the way" of the receiver's crossover.

Also, wouldn't you loose some LFE content in surround soundtracks by setting the crossover on the sub to 60 Hz? I read somewhere that LFE effects can go up to 100 Hz or more.

aaharvel

When a sub's crossover is bypassed, the sub is going to play a full range signal as determined by the highpass filter that's built into said sub. It doesn't matter if you set your receiver to a 60hz crossover or a 900hz. crossover- the sub is still going to play the same frequencies unless you toggle the sub's own crossover/low pass filter. If the sub's highpass provides a measly 6db. per octave slope like most do in mass market subs, you'll still get an audible signal well above what you intended the sub to stop at. For LFE and DVD's that just might be your thing. For analog sources and redbook/music, it doesn't do so hot.

Bypassing my Velodyne sub's crossover (enabling the highpass filter), gives me a fixed 85hz with a 6db. slope. 85 hz. sounds about right until you actually look at the kind of slope the filter is using (this being a -6db slope)and you do the math. Starting at 85hz, the -6db. point on the velodyne is around the 170 hz. mark. The -3db. point fares a little better, but is still around 125hz. That's a far cry from 85hz. I think the problem is that when most people think of a crossover at a given point they assume it's along the lines of hitting a brick wall. This just isn't the case. Instead, it's a rollover slope that can vary from very steep (24 db. per octave) to average (12-18db. per octave) to very mild (6db. per octave).

That's why I don't bypass the sub's crossover. I use it. By utilizing the subs crossover/low pass filter it allows me to enable a much steeper 12db. per octave crossover slope. Now instead of having to put up with a boomy 125 hz. at -3db, that same 125hz. is now shelved at -6db. That's a notable improvement: bordering on audible vs. inaudible. You'll notice that most high pass filters in receivers are very steep, around 24db/octave (that's a good thing) because they're done in the digital domain. High pass filters in subs on the other hand aren't. That's why the weak 6db. slope is still used. A sub's low-pass filter is almost always steeper and therefore it is good to use it... especially if you're not an LFE freak and don't like to hear male voices coming out of your sub when you listen to music.

aaharvel

adam2434 wrote:

If you set your speakers to small and use, say, a 60 Hz crossover in your receiver, why would the sub "see" any 120 Hz signal. Wouldn't the crossover slope in the receiver actually determine what freq's get to the sub. Thus, the reason for setting the sub's crossover to max, would be to "get out of the way" of the receiver's crossover.

Also, wouldn't you loose some LFE content in surround soundtracks by setting the crossover on the sub to 60 Hz? I read somewhere that LFE effects can go up to 100 Hz or more.

sorry, now the cliff-note version.

the crossover in your receiver doesn't determine what plays in your sub. it determines what plays in your speakers hooked to the receiver via speaker wire. Likewise with the sub. setting the sub's crossover doesn't change the frequencies of your other speakers- it just changes the frequencies of the sub.

In the end, having either the main speakers or the sub playing full range is not a good idea. That's why I use BOTH crossovers to prevent the smaller speakers from playing low bass and the subwoofer from playing higher frequencies than 80hz.

Holydoc

aaharvel wrote:

sorry, now the cliff-note version.

the crossover in your receiver doesn't determine what plays in your sub.

I do not think this is true for my receiver. Having my receiver set to 80hz crossover, my sub does not kick in unless there are frequencies at this range or below. My sub does not attempt to play all frequencies. It is limited to just 80 and below.

I am unsure if this is a feature of my Onkyo or if this is a defect. Whatever the reason, it saves me from having to set up my system like yours to prevent localization of bass.

adam2434

I thought the crossover in a receiver was a low pass and highpass filter, such that if you set speakers to small and picked 80 Hz, +80 (with its associated slope) would be played by the speakers and all -80 (with its associated slope) would be redirected to the sub. Also, the LFE signal would be what ever frequencies the engineer put into the LFE channel. If this is not the case, I wonder how Outlaw could not include a crossover in their PB10-ISD.

Also, I thought the highpass in a sub only pertained to its speaker level or line level outputs, not pertaining to what the sub plays itself. I believe many subs don't even have a high pass filter, the PSW10 for example.

I'll have to change the crossover on my receiver and put my ear to the sub to hear if the sub's output changes.

crazy

I have to say that I've got a little lost with all this talk ... BUT the good news is that I went through the setting that were suggested (speakers = SMALL and crossover = 80) and they are sounding great! And yes, the subwoofers are indeed working even during stereo playback.

Thank you once again for this fabulous help - its great to have such amazingly helpful folks on this forum.

Holydoc

Crazy,

I recommend you purchase the AVIA DVD for calibrating your stereo. You think it sounds good now. Wait until you have that monster running to its full capacity.

crazy

adam2434 wrote:

Looks like you boosted the volume knob on your sub too, now that you're at +4 dB vs. +10.

Well, I increased it just a little bit - not too much.

adam2434 wrote:

Report back when you get a chance to listen with these settings in stereo. Does the bass management work in stereo (does the sub play) and is the sound better when you play at high volumes (per your other thread)?

So - as per my previous message, yes, it is working! I haven't tried to play music at louder than 60 yet - I'm a little scared

adam2434 wrote:

Just curious, what's the lowest crossover setting on your Onkyo. If it's 60 Hz, you may want to give that a listen in stereo. Once you get the hang of all these settings, you may find that you like to switch the crossover to around 60 Hz for stereo music and put it back to 80 Hz for surround.

Yes, it is 60 Hz

crazy

Holydoc wrote:

Crazy,

I recommend you purchase the AVIA DVD for calibrating your stereo. You think it sounds good now. Wait until you have that monster running to its full capacity.

Are you refering to this?

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/630551982X/ref=ase_immaculate-books/002-1165859-3563228?s=dvd&v=glance&n=130&tagActionCode=immaculate-books

What about the Radioshack audio level meter?

adam2434

Cool, glad to hear you're making progress.

For stereo listening, give the 60 Hz crossover a shot if you get the chance and see which you like better for stereo music.

For multichannel music and surround, however, I'd stick with 80 Hz because of the more limited bass handling capabilities of your other speakers.

I would still personally turn the crossover all the way up on the sub, effectively to disable it.

aaharvel

good advice on the 60hz. crossover thing.

yeah try both ways, see which you like best.

adam2434

adam2434 wrote:

I wonder how Outlaw could not include a crossover in their PB10-ISDQUOTE]
Duh, I meant SVS not Outlaw - long day!

Holydoc

crazy wrote:

Are you refering to this?

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/630551982X/ref=ase_immaculate-books/002-1165859-3563228?s=dvd&v=glance&n=130&tagActionCode=immaculate-books

What about the Radioshack audio level meter?

Yes, that is the DVD I was referring to. In order to use this DVD, you will need a Radioshack sound level meter. Purchase the cheapest ANALOG meter you can at Radioshack. You will not regret this purchase. It will allow you to tune your system to its true potential.

The nice thing about this DVD is that it will help you also calibrate your TV. This will allow you to not only get the best out of your sound but also out of your video system.

Enjoy!

crazy

adam2434 wrote:

I would still personally turn the crossover all the way up on the sub, effectively to disable it.

Yes, I turned the crossover on the subwoofer all the way up as you mentioned.

I haven't tried the 60 Hz for stereo mixes yet but will surely do so today.

aaharvel, adam - thank you both once again for the great advice.

crazy

Holydoc wrote:

Yes, that is the DVD I was referring to. In order to use this DVD, you will need a Radioshack sound level meter. Purchase the cheapest ANALOG meter you can at Radioshack. You will not regret this purchase. It will allow you to tune your system to its true potential.

The nice thing about this DVD is that it will help you also calibrate your TV. This will allow you to not only get the best out of your sound but also out of your video system.

Enjoy!

This looks a little outdated (produced in 1999) - do you know if they've come up with a newer release? I wonder if they can handle the newer TVs?

Of course - my TV is like 5 years old (CRT!!!) but I was hoping to get a DLP for my b'day (in 7 months)

tommyboy

aaharval,

I pretty much have the same system as crazy(Ive been reading most of his posts cause i have the same problem he has) and it seems like my bass is kind of "off". Are you saying that I should put both my Reciever (onkyo txsr603x) crossover and my Sub (velodyne dps10) crossover at 80Hz so I get everything above 80hz to my speakers (monitor 50, set at small) and everything below to my sub?...... if that made any sense

crazy

tommyboy wrote:

aaharval,

I pretty much have the same system as crazy(Ive been reading most of his posts cause i have the same problem he has) and it seems like my bass is kind of "off". Are you saying that I should put both my Reciever (onkyo txsr603x) crossover and my Sub (velodyne dps10) crossover at 80Hz so I get everything above 80hz to my speakers (monitor 50, set at small) and everything below to my sub?...... if that made any sense

Hi - first of all, hope you've been enjoying your system

I believe that you need to set the receiver to 80Hz and the crossover on the sub to max.

unc2701

See, people don't believe me when I say Onkyo bass settings are wonky, but just read this thread...