2 Channel Home Theater????

wingnut4772

I have been very lucky lately to find an audio store in Miami with an owner who helps his customers like he is on a mission to save audio souls.

On a lark I happened to wander in his store looking for power cords. Don introduced me to the wonderful Harmonic Technology Cords in my set up now.

He is an audiophile. Pure and simple. For 30 years he has been in his field.

I visited his shop yesterday and he invited me to listen to a Roger Waters CD on a beautiful pair of Meadowlark speakers. Then he began to preach his gospel..

You will have to forgive me because although I am certainly old enough, I am not familiar with Water's work so I am not sure exactly what I was listening to but what I heard amazed me. Sound effects to the left of me, right of me , and sweeping across and behind me. I was stunned that just two speakers could produce this. In stereo! Don explaned to me that a lot of his customers who have gone through the trials and tribulations with HT and surround sound in their rookie years have just ended up going with a HIGH quality 2 channel system only. Evidently a good 2 channel done right will have this effect.

Now this enlightenment is way ahead of my current spiritual audio development but I decided to go home and see what my 2 channel stereo sounded like compared to what I had experienced. I was pretty disappointed with what I heard. I had none of the imaging and soundstage that the Meadowlarks had so effortlessly displayed. Motivated and intrigued, I began to revisit the acoustics of my room and the placement of my speakers. I copied Don's set up to the best of my recollection and moved some Auralex wall treatments behind my front speakers. Then I spent time playing with the speaker positioning and tried it again. Ahhhh... THERE it was. How did I ever miss this?

I played Master and Commander in stereo and I had to double check just to make sure that the surrounds were not on! I am not saying that the stereo setting was as intense in the surround department as 7.1 but the fact that I had to check means I had done something right.

Am I going to replace my 7.1 speaker system with a stereo set up? No. Not now. I still prefer all the bells and whistles that Mr. Dolby has to offer- BUT....whittling down my system to the simplest of settings -stereo- has given me a firmer foundation and improved my HT experience considerably.

Thanks Don.

TroyD

Ahhhhhhhhhhh....another believer in the goodness of real hifi stereo.

I've found that after ditching decent surround for fairly high tone 2ch, I don't miss it at all and in fact enjoy my rig even more.

I also employ a Dynaco Quadaptor on my rear surrounds for effect during movies.....it works for me.

Gimmie quality over quantity in terms of channels.

BDT

BjornB17

TroyD wrote:

Ahhhhhhhhhhh....another believer in the goodness of real hifi stereo.

I've found that after ditching decent surround for fairly high tone 2ch, I don't miss it at all and in fact enjoy my rig even more.

I also employ a Dynaco Quadaptor on my rear surrounds for effect during movies.....it works for me.

Gimmie quality over quantity in terms of channels.

BDT

Which speakers do you use anyway, TroyD? I tried to look in your system showcase but didnt see the speakers listed there.

TroyD

Currently I have, circa 1980, AR-9's. In the past, I've had Carver Amazings and Polk SDA SRS 2.3tl's

In that particular rig, I have a Sunfire Tube preamp, Classe 25 amp, Philips DVD963SA SACD/DVD player. I have a gruntball Audiosource and Dynaco Quadaptor for the surrounds/deck speakers.

I forgot all about that showcase thingy, I remember starting it but never finishing it.

If you'd care to check out my living room rig click here
BDT

BjornB17

TroyD wrote:

Currently I have, circa 1980, AR-9's. In the past, I've had Carver Amazings and Polk SDA SRS 2.3tl's

In that particular rig, I have a Sunfire Tube preamp, Classe 25 amp, Philips DVD963SA SACD/DVD player. I have a gruntball Audiosource and Dynaco Quadaptor for the surrounds/deck speakers.

I forgot all about that showcase thingy, I remember starting it but never finishing it.

If you'd care to check out my living room rig click here
BDT

LOL, i also just remembered that i started my showcase but forgot to link the pics. I better do that soon

F1nut

wingnut4772 wrote:

Don explaned to me that a lot of his customers who have gone through the trials and tribulations with HT and surround sound in their rookie years have just ended up going with a HIGH quality 2 channel system only.

That part bears repeating!

shack

Music = stereo

Movies = surround sound

Good stereo and good surround sound are not mutually exclusive. A single rig CAN do both very well.

TroyD

Amen to that.....

Quality, not quantity.

BDT

Early B.

One day I was watching a movie and didn't realize the surrounds weren't plugged in until after the movie was over. Same thing has happened a couple of times with my subwoofer not being turned on.

It's all about the experience of suspended reality -- if you truly get absorbed in a good movie, it doesn't matter how many speakers you have. Likewise, a bad movie played on an awesome 7.1 channel high end HT setup is still a bad movie.

Ricardo

Early B. wrote:

Likewise, a bad movie played on an awesome 7.1 channel high end HT setup is still a bad movie.

Absolutely true..though there are many bad movies that sound great...

The Kill Bill's come to mind....

reeltrouble1

Wingnut,

Welcome to 2-channel. Now you know why many of us run two rigs.

Someday you might consider running a true 2ch inside the HT with something called a pass-through on a seperate pre (tubed of course , this is an effective way to raise the bar way up for 2 ch music while keeping your HT and all its effects. You could ask your new found friend, here is to brick and motar stores who still offer real audio advice!!!!!!!

If you liked the Waters you might pick up a copy of his In the Flesh, one of my favorite sacd, its not Pink Floyd, so the familiar covers sound just a wee bit different, but in a good way.

RT1

madmax

I enjoyed reading your experience. Funny how you go home after hearing a better system and figure out how to make yours better, huh?
madmax

heiney9

Part of the fun of this hobby is discovery. Kudos to you for being open minded enough to go home and fiddle with your system and discover something new/different. Certainly a 2-ch HT set-up is going to lack some of the hard core realism. You may not hear the bullets zinging all around you in that one scene from the original Matrix. I've never been disappointed in watching movies on my 2 ch rig. Someday the idea is too have 2 seperate systems in 2 seperate rooms. Right now even if I wanted to go HT my room is not set-up properly to take advantage of a killer 5.1 setup. To set it up properly would severly hurt the 2 channel experience.

H9

ND13

2.1 all the way for me.

I don't even own a multichannel reciever, amp, or processor and haven't for a while now. The last time I had a true surround system was when Pro-Logic was king. And yes, I've heard several properly set up 5.1, 6.1, and 7.1 rigs. While they sounded pretty cool, I found them to actually become irritating after an hour or so into a movie. That's just me, as I sure that most of you love your HT rigs, it's still not for everyone and I mean not to discredit surround sound in any way. I just want to point out that when done correctly, a nice 2.1 movie/tv rig can can be very satisfying for alot of people.

wingnut4772

Yes. I have a newfound respect for the two channel. It really is superior for music when done correctly.

RT1,

I will ask him about that pass through. I am familiar with Pink Floyd music somewhat but I think this CD was something different so it may have even been the very one you mentioned. It was excellent.

One thing I really enjoy about this hobby is that there is always something to learn. I crave that knowledge and this was a terrific lesson. Someday when I retire maybe I will have a shop like his and help others also.

Zero,

I don't know which Meadowlarks they were but they looked similar to the Kestrels so the may have been in the same series. They were 3K for the pair if that helps.

Just a small aside, My new amp - the Earthquake Cinenova- sounds excellent for music. Especially for analog- very nice. I find it hard to believe that it is a solid state multichannel amp when I listen it but I am sure my next education will be with tubes somewhere. See? A lot to learn. Buh-ring it!

George Grand

Once I got the AR-9's in my Half-Assed 2 Channel HT Rig, it was obvious that no surrounds would ever be required.

The Dynaco Quadaptor is the single most bang for the buck product in the history of audio.

George Grand (of the Jersey Grands)

jmierzur

wingnut4772 wrote:

I copied Don's set up to the best of my recollection and moved some Auralex wall treatments behind my front speakers. Then I spent time playing with the speaker positioning and tried it again. Ahhhh... THERE it was. How did I ever miss this?

Glad you found a way to improve your setup. I am always looking for ways to improve my audio environment and am curious as to how the speakers were located in the room. Can you describe how the speakers are located in the room so I can try this arrangement. In the Speakers forum, I have a thread about DIY Tube Traps that has pictures of my room setup. I am wondering if I can further improve my listening experience by relocating my speakers.

Thanks.

unc2701

I agree that there's no reason at all to have more than 2.1 for music, but the effects you talk about with two channel "surround sound" have two problems:
1) there's a limited sweet spot
2) The mix has to be right

But with the right source material and a comfy chair in the right spot, it's a great experience...

I gotta diagree with using 2.1 for movies with surround sound. If the two channel downmix of a movie's soundtrack doesn't even have the sound on there, then you're missing out. If the media was intended to be played in 5.1, you're gonna miss out playing it in 2.1... and studios have been getting lazy about the downmix and just focusing on the 5.1. A properly calibrated 5.1 system will always sound better with materail that was recorded in 5.1. Now, you have to calibrate it to your taste- if you don't like heavy surround, then tone back the rears, and use dipole/bipole speakers, etc.

As for using a quad processor for surround, the QS algorithm is pretty close to the dobly surround algorithm, so what you're really doing is just hearing a slightly off version of what the dolby surround tracks would be.

Again, nothing annoys me more than turning on my stereo and seeing that the roommates have turned on the 5.1 music setting, but for HT, I really gotta go with 5.1

wingnut4772

Can you describe how the speakers are located in the room so I can try this arrangement. In the Speakers forum, I have a thread about DIY Tube Traps that has pictures of my room setup. I am wondering if I can further improve my listening experience by relocating my speakers.

The placement is speaker specific but he had the Meadowlarks toed in pretty significantly and about 7 feet apart. I ended up placing my LSIs actually toed out more than I had them (not as toed in) after experimentation. I was using the example of what I had heard as my guide more so than how he had his speakers placed since my Polks are entirely different speakers. I did pretty much copy how he had his acoustic treatments placed on the walls.

I noticed that he had placed acoustical boards behind each speaker vertically on the wall and one to either side at the first reflection point. My set up limits side wall placement of acoustic treatment but I placed Auralex B24 fiberglass boards up high behind my fronts angled in the corners. This gave me a very clean sound and elimated a 'horn' effect (something else Don educated me on) that I was getting in my room in the front right corner with my slightly sloped ceiling. Imaging and soundstaging improved terrifically.

Zero,

I am not sure as the grills were on.

shack

All I know is that in my Home Theater there will ALWAYS be at least 6 speakers in the mix even though they may not be used all the time. I have a dedicated 2 channel music set-up but I also use my HT for music and only go 2.1 in that case. If the movie is in Dolby stereo I only use the fronts as I don't use any of the DSP modes like DLPII.

Again this is JMO...but to watch movies in 2 channel that have been made with a surround sound track is like watching pan-n-scan. Yeah....you can still watch it...but it's not all there. I've heard the arguments that if it is a great movie you don't need the other stuff. Maybe...but if it's there and it makes my movie "experience" more enjoyable (and it does)...I'm going to use it.

For all the 2-channel movie folks...if you have a great rig and if it's what you like...have at it. My surround sound is here to stay.

jmierzur

wingnut4772 wrote:

The placement is speaker specific but he had the Meadowlarks toed in pretty significantly and about 7 feet apart.

Do you recall where the speakers were located in the room. I have mine 1/5 the room length from the rear wall and about 1/5 the room width from the side walls. They are also toed in to produce a detailed center image. This has produced the results you describe. I was wondering where he had his speakers located as I am interested in trying other locations.

jdhdiggs

Ditto Shacks sentiments. My 5.1 is much better than my 2-channel for HT. The other way around for music. Each has its place.

unc2701

shack wrote:

...but to watch movies in 2 channel that have been made with a surround sound track is like watching pan-n-scan. Yeah....you can still watch it...but it's not all there.

That nails exactly what I was trying to say... Anyhow, lucky me, I'm going to have a room each for HT and 2 channel in the new place (and the wife gets every other room in the entire house...)

wingnut4772

jm,

The set up was in the middle of his showroom so I will try my best. his show roon is rectangular and I would sy he had the speakers positioned roughly halfway in the room with the rear of the speakers maybe 4 feet away from the wall (long wall). I think that this was more out of necessity than design as he has to store and display product though. The actual listening space was maybe 15 X 20 X12.

I would also like to say that I agree and have stated that multichannel for movies is the way to go as they are designed now to be heard that way but I have accidentally left my system in stereo (because I am playing with it back and forth-it's so fun! )and did not realize that it was still in stereo while watching a movie until I attempted to adjust the speaker trim. If I was paying closer attention I would have but the stereo is just that good now.

madmax

wingnut4772 wrote:

On a lark...

...and found Meadowlark speakers...

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa Just noticed that.

I like 2 channel HT as well.
madmax

wingnut4772

...and found Meadowlark speakers...

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa Just noticed that.

Ha!

jmierzur

Thanks for the description. I think that I will try moving the speakers more into the room to see what happens.

wingnut4772

Jm,

I have been tweaking this system for so long and I as I keep learning it only gets better and I always think it never can at each stage of improvement but it does. Just have fun and trust your ears. (and your SPL meter and EQ )

I saw your tube traps in the other thread. They are awesome. You could go into business and charge for those. I know I would be interested.

jmierzur

wingnut4772 wrote:

I saw your tube traps in the other thread. They are awesome. You could go into business and charge for those. I know I would be interested.

Not a chance; I am not sure if the patent for the ASC design has expired. I have many small projects to complete around the house and also would like to restart triathlon training now that I am almost fully recovered after being hit by a car 3.5 years ago while riding my road bike. For the remainder of the time, you will find my butt parked in the listening position or playing with the children or ...

The 'Gale' method of traps are fairly easy to make. The hardest part of the project is the discs for the ends of the tubes. I still have one in a raw state. If you or anyone else is interested, I can document the completion of the remaining trap.

Sorry if this derails your thread.

George Grand

Mr. Uncooked, a pair of AR-9's, and a chair in the sweet spot leaves absolutely nothing to the imagination or to be desired. Okay?

I could not care less about guests out of the sweet spot. Guests are not invited here to watch movies. They are invited over here to socialize, and exchange ideas. I find that the gathering of people to watch movies in a home environment is largely a activity for a generation or two younger than mine.

George Grand (of the Jersey Grands)

unc2701

George Grand wrote:

I could not care less about guests out of the sweet spot. Guests are not invited here to watch movies.

In that case, you are wise to spend you money on 2 channel and I wholely endorse your approach!