Healthcare Costs

Mike Reeter

Is anyone else fed up with the rising costs of healthcare? My wife suffers from an occastional Migraine Headache,I've had to take her to the Emergency Room twice to get a shot to relieve the pain...and knock her out...the only way to really get rid of the headache...

The last trip to the E.R. we were billed $1157.00 for a shot that probably had .50 worth of medication in it.

Fortunatly,we have Health Insurance,but with sizable deductables...

When my wife called the Hospital to question the bill,she was told that "people with insurance pay for the ones that don't"

Now,I sorry,but is this **** in my book...

Small rant over,Thank you.

venomclan

The healthcare industry is so full of fraud it is scary. I recently went into the hospital for a diagnostic surgery/test. It could have been done outpatient for my 25 deductable but I wanted to be out because of the pain. It cost $12000.00. They charged $2000 to sit in recovery for 30 minutes. An ace bandage cost $400. Use of the room for 30 minute procedure was $3000. Are we insane?

The government needs to come in and take over fast. Lawyers and insurance companies are raping the American public. We are the most advanced country on the planet, but we have the most primitive health care system. every other industrialized nation has government health care. Except us. What is sad is that most hospitals havr to take care of every immigrant right off the boat. If you are a citizen you get nada.
Venom

Mike Reeter

Well said,The Healthcare Industry is about the only business left in this country that is not regulated by the Fed.

I'm not for Government control of anything,but...someone needs to do something...fast..

Mazeroth

It's big business at its best. Corporations are running the show now.

Here's a good story...

My buddy at work had a sharp pain in his stomache for a few hours and called his Mom. Not wanting to take any chances she took him to the ER to get it checked out. They did bloodwork and checked a few other things. When those came back normal they said he needed a cat-scan. That came back and the results were inconclusive. They sent him home, and two to three hours later he felt fine.

At this time, he didn't have any health insurance. When the bill came for the visit they were asking for $7,200! $1500 or so just for the ER visit, over $4000 for the cat-scan, and almost $2000 for the other tests. All of that and they had no idea what was wrong. It's like taking your car to the mechanic, letting them do a few tests on it and saying sorry, we don't know how to fix it, but you still owe us.

Demiurge

venomclan wrote:

The government needs to come in and take over fast.

Yeah, just what we need....socialized medicine. So it's cheaper at the cost of never getting taken care of when you need it. That's insanity. :rolleyes:

Dennis Gardner

Living with the high costs of healthcare in the US beats the alternative.............passing away while on some other governments waiting list.

janmike

I do feel for you folks in the US when it comes to Health Care. While Canada is not perfect, I have never paid for anything in my life (doctor visits, drugs (the prescription kind that is), surgery. A lot of companies in Canada have full medical, dental, and drug plans free to employees. The gov't, while not great, looks after major things on a province by province basis. I have a few friends and relatives in the USA that have been hit hard with major medical bills.

Demiurge

Funny I was going to say that Canada is a perfect example of why to avoid socialized healthcare. You're paying for it, and so is everyone else. You also don't have the cream of the crop for doctors because it doesn't behoove someone to work for less when they can make more elsewhere on a competitive salary scale.

I know all about how high healthcare costs are, or should I say...health insurance costs. Businesses pay out the rearend for their employees to be covered. You see what's on your paycheck, but your employer needs to match dollar for dollar what you put into your medicare account. Not to mention the costs of health insurance...which varies from company to company, but is always extremely high.

End the frivolous law suits and you have a good start.

RuSsMaN

Try having none. PATOS. Pay At Time Of Service.

Now THAT is a ****.

Count your blessings, no matter how small they are.

bobman1235

Demiurge wrote:

End the frivolous law suits and you have a good start.

That's a huge part of it. Doctors pay out the **** to keep themselves insured from **** ambulance chaser lawyers and their moron clients.

venomclan

I never said lets be like Canada. All I am saying is that the health care industry can do anything they want with no restrictions. If they make a drug to cure a disease, they can charge whatever they want and justify it. The lawyers are driving the prices up. Stupid lawsuits. We have crisis now. Not enough doctors and nurses. They cannot afford to practice because of malpractice insurance sky high. Small businesses are going under from the weight of these costs. When the baby boomers retire, the amount of medicare costs will cripple the economy.

I think that if we send all our lawyers to Iraq, Al Queda will surrender.

Ron-P

Yep, the cost of healthcare sucks but it's a necessary evil.

Mike, is that shot the "Imitrex"? My wife had to get that shot many times for her migraines. Eventually, we found that the birth control pill was the main cause.

Willow

janmike wrote:

I do feel for you folks in the US when it comes to Health Care. While Canada is not perfect, I have never paid for anything in my life (doctor visits, drugs (the prescription kind that is), surgery. A lot of companies in Canada have full medical, dental, and drug plans free to employees. The gov't, while not great, looks after major things on a province by province basis. I have a few friends and relatives in the USA that have been hit hard with major medical bills.

Right, what I don't understand is our company drug plan wouldn't cover the Twinrex shots, neither will the gov. But If I came back sick with hepA or B. The gov. would flip the bill...go figure.

shack

Having the highest level of medical care and technology the world has ever known isn't cheap

George Grand

And that puts it out of the reach of a sizable portion of hardworking Americans. It's just so wonderful having this level of medical care and technology (if you can afford it).

George Grand (of the Jersey Grands)

shack

Then again there is always socialized medicine....mediocre care for everyone. I'm sorry not everyone is afforded the abosolute best there is in medical coverage. Like it or not, our health care system is the best there is. Due to our "flawed" system even the lowest on the socioeconomic level has access to healthcare the rest of the world can only dream about.

aaharvel

Demiurge wrote:

Funny I was going to say that Canada is a perfect example of why to avoid socialized healthcare. You're paying for it, and so is everyone else. You also don't have the cream of the crop for doctors because it doesn't behoove someone to work for less when they can make more elsewhere on a competitive salary scale.

I know all about how high healthcare costs are, or should I say...health insurance costs. Businesses pay out the rearend for their employees to be covered. You see what's on your paycheck, but your employer needs to match dollar for dollar what you put into your medicare account. Not to mention the costs of health insurance...which varies from company to company, but is always extremely high.

End the frivolous law suits and you have a good start.

agreed

Danny Tse

Don't forget there're many groups working to keep healthcare cost high, such as the drug manufacturers and the American Medical Association (AMA). These groups lobbied hard to defeat universal healthcare when it was proposed by the Clinton administration in the early 90s and later on when it was proposed for California. Sure, the silly lawsuits is one of the reasons healthcare cost is so high in this country. However, if you look into the components of the cost, the administration of our current system is actually costing us 30+ cents per dollar spend. Countries with universal healthcare systems, such as every other industrialized nation on the planet, use only half our cost for administration.

I do think the government need to step in. However, I seriously doubt our government, of either political leaning, has the political backbone to stand up to the lobbying efforts of those who can benefit the most from high healthcare cost. The idea is not to copy another country's system, but to take the best of other countries' idea and create our own unique universal healthcare system here. I hate to say it, but I don't think I will see that happening in my life time.

polksda

The biggest problem I see is that in order for a universal care system to be solvent, there would have to be certain illnesses/conditions that simply would not be covered. It would have to be basic/preventative coverage. Where do you draw the line? If you choose to cover the N most serious afflictions, a person that has been diagnosed with N+1 will sue and/or scream bloody murder why it's not covered too.

To cover everyone for heart attacks, strokes, cancer, accidental injuries, etc., the vast majority of "wishful thinking" types of procedures (plastic surgeries, fertility treatments) would have to go. You want? You pay.

It's an unpopular opinion, but I see no reason why, on an overpopulated planet, fertility treatments are covered by insurance at thousands and thousands of dollars per attempt.

Just about every government-run program of any magnitude is rife with incompetence and fraud. Not to say that the current privately-run system doesn't have fraud, but the last thing I want is another government boondoggle getting anywhere close to my health care... our government has PROVEN that it cannot run anything efficiently...

Danny Tse

polksda wrote:

Just about every government-run program of any magnitude is rife with incompetence and fraud. Not to say that the current privately-run system doesn't have fraud, but the last thing I want is another government boondoggle getting anywhere close to my health care... our government has PROVEN that it cannot run anything efficiently...

This is one of my fears of a government-run helthcare system as well. If this is to change, there must be fundamental changes to take place in order for such a system to work. It can certainly happen.....just look at the US Postal Service....several years ago, it was hundreds of millions dollars in the red. The USPS just announced it has made a profit of over a billion dollars last year.

shack

Danny Tse wrote:

Countries with universal healthcare systems, such as every other industrialized nation on the planet, use only half our cost for administration.

They are also taxed out the **** to pay for average to poor health care. You want waste...let the government run the medical system.

Danny Tse wrote:

I do think the government need to step in.

A recipe for disaster. As much as many hate the thought of profit in medicine...it is what drives the research and technology and creates the ability to provide medical breakthroughs and cure/control many diseases.

Danny Tse wrote:

However, I seriously doubt our government, of either political leaning, has the political backbone to stand up to the lobbying efforts of those who can benefit the most from high healthcare cost. The idea is not to copy another country's system, but to take the best of other countries' idea and create our own unique universal healthcare system here. I hate to say it, but I don't think I will see that happening in my life time.

I hope I never see the government in charge of my healthcare...It will shorten my life by 20 years.

MacLeod

So ya want to government to step in and run healthcare. OK, Ill sign on as soon as you can name me one government organization (besides the military) that runs well.

The government cant deliver the mail, how is it going to run health care.

Also, all these countries with "free" health care have a tax rate that you wouldnt believe. Not only do you pay for it with 70% of your income going to taxes but you pay for it in your economy suffering from the extreme tax burden.

There was a protest sign I saw once when Hillary Care was being debated back in the 90's:

Health Care Free

---

Big Mac $15

That kinda says it all.

Nobody is denied health care in this country. You can walk into an emergency room and they have to treat you.

And as for government regulation, its government regulation that keeps insurance premiums as high as they are! You know the bare bones plan in Kansas costs $170 a month while the bare bones plan in New Jersey costs $1000+?!? How can this be? Because the imperial federal government mandates you cant buy insurance policies outside your state and each state regulates the MINIMUM an insurance plan can cover and since you have no choice but to shop in New Jersey they can raise the minimum coverage as much as they want and drive up the cost of premiums. If the imperial federal government would allow you, if you lived in New Jersey, to shop for insurance plans in Kansas then in order to keep the New Jersey companies from going bankrupt would have to ease restrictions and regulations on New Jersey policies.

CrBoy

Let me chime in... (I know I live in a different, smaller country and all that crap so bear with me)

The healthcare is managed by the governemt here and while it's not perfect it works very good... we pay a monthly fee (deductable from our salary) of 9%, so the more money you make the more you have to pay, but everybody gets the same kind/quality of treatments.

Surgeries, cancer and AIDs treatments and such are covered... plastic surgery and fertility treatments are not (which makes a lot of sense to me)

Private treatments cost 20 times more and are just as good... but faster!

There are many crooks on the health businness here... people selling drugs/medication/treatments but for the most people the system works, it needs some improvement for sure but that's about everywhere!

Danny Tse

shack wrote:

They are also taxed out the **** to pay for average to poor health care.

You're right about being taxed. The US enjoys one of the lowest tax rates amongst the industrialized countries.

shack wrote:

As much as many hate the thought of profit in medicine...it is what drives the research and technology and creates the ability to provide medical breakthroughs and cure/control many diseases.

At the same time, the same drugs are much cheaper across the border in Canada. And our government forbid us to "re-import" that same drug back to this country so that we have to pay the drug manfacturers' inflated prices.

madmax

In the future I can see the possibility of an economy care service for those who need it. You sign a waiver preventing lawsuits, the whole system works like a Sams club with a membership and only general care problems are accepted. Most of what I see people going to doctors for could be handled by someones grandmother. Of course the higher profile stuff would still need a referal for specialized care at an even higher cost. For these referrals I can see the government flipping the bill.
madmax

StopherJJ1980

OK here is a very non-PC but VERY real world explanation of health care. Everyone thinks that health care is a right, and im sorry but thats just BS. It is a product and service and BUSINESS just like anything else. The only reason we have some of the great advances in drugs and health care that we do os because capitalism provides the financial motivation to do so. Then once the billions have been spent on research and development, testing, marketing and production, people then assume it is their RIGHT to access it cheaply. And Im sorry but you dont. Sure maybe your wife's meds had 50 cents of material in it (althoug im sure its an exaggeration) but it had millions if not billions of dollars going into deveoping it that need to be made back.

And tons of liberals love to point out how Canada has free health care but ask anyone from Canada and they'll tell you it sucks. So you have two choices. Capitalism promoting the best advances in medical technology at a high price, or socialism providing little motivation for advancement at a lower price. Again, capitalism makes the most advances, but it'll cost you and that just a fact of life. If you dont like it make more money. This may sound snobbish but I make 30k a year and still have this opinion, because its the reality of how things work.

StopherJJ1980

Mazeroth wrote:

It's big business at its best. Corporations are running the show now.

Here's a good story...

My buddy at work had a sharp pain in his stomache for a few hours and called his Mom. Not wanting to take any chances she took him to the ER to get it checked out. They did bloodwork and checked a few other things. When those came back normal they said he needed a cat-scan. That came back and the results were inconclusive. They sent him home, and two to three hours later he felt fine.

At this time, he didn't have any health insurance. When the bill came for the visit they were asking for $7,200! $1500 or so just for the ER visit, over $4000 for the cat-scan, and almost $2000 for the other tests. All of that and they had no idea what was wrong. It's like taking your car to the mechanic, letting them do a few tests on it and saying sorry, we don't know how to fix it, but you still owe us.

YEAH, OF COURSE! Youre buddy could have waited abit longer and felt fine and paid $0. First of all he could have gone to county for free. But he probably went to a real hospital because he wanted to or was too dumb to know he could access free county care. And these people didnt strap him down to a gurney and force him to take these tests then pay for it, HE WANTED THEM! He had to ok them. These test are expensive, thats the fact. At a mechanic you still pay them for diagnostic test even if they dont fix your car, same as medical care.

And never mind your post says he didnt have medical insurance, well in my opinion, thats what you get when you dont get medical insurance. Thats why it is so important to everyone else.

StopherJJ1980

venomclan wrote:

The healthcare industry is so full of fraud it is scary. I recently went into the hospital for a diagnostic surgery/test. It could have been done outpatient for my 25 deductable but I wanted to be out because of the pain. It cost $12000.00. They charged $2000 to sit in recovery for 30 minutes. An ace bandage cost $400. Use of the room for 30 minute procedure was $3000. Are we insane?

The government needs to come in and take over fast. Lawyers and insurance companies are raping the American public. We are the most advanced country on the planet, but we have the most primitive health care system. every other industrialized nation has government health care. Except us. What is sad is that most hospitals havr to take care of every immigrant right off the boat. If you are a citizen you get nada.
Venom

"It could have been done outpatient for my 25 deductable but I wanted to be out because of the pain. It cost $12000.00."

That is all you need to say. You "want"... you pay...
Its up to you if the cost is worth is.
Health care is NOT a right.

venomclan

StopherJJ1980 wrote:

"It could have been done outpatient for my 25 deductable but I wanted to be out because of the pain. It cost $12000.00."

That is all you need to say. You "want"... you pay...
Its up to you if the cost is worth is.
Health care is NOT a right.

"want" is a loose term. The procedure was a cystoctopy, if you are not sure what that is-a 14" rod is inserted in the **** as a diagnostic procedure. I had this done before while awake, never again.
Take your worst pain, multiply by 100. Because of the pain, the procedure cannot be done effectivly with the patient awake.The second time left me little choice.

I agree that healthcare is not a right. I, like many people work hard for a living and are fortunate to have health care through my employer. This has not always been the case for me and is the same for many people. Using Canada is a bad example. Most of their government systems are screwed up. I think that the U.S. can have a better system-for U.S. citizens only. Capitalism gives the U.S. the drive to be the best at everything, and we are. The U.S. pioneers more of everything, and then other countries copy it.
But there is a difference between capitalism and pure and obsessive greed. High prices can be met, raping people at every turn will drive the middle class under.
Venom

markmarc

Argumentative points for both sides:
Insurance costs to employers have risen at an annual rate of 15% over the past decade. The free market has been unable to adequately control costs.

Canadians, British wait sometimes months to have non-emergency surgery.

Both sides have huge flaws and problems.

In the US, doctors are forced by malpractice insurance carriers to order tests that are unnecessary in 99.9% of cases just for protection. Health insurance has to pay for unnecessary tests. It's a vicious circle that is going to force more and more employers to cut back or eliminate health care.

Eventually, unless huge tort reform is made, health care in the US will be a two-tier system. Basic gov't sponsored coverage. Then privately paid premiums for those who want extra care.

Tour2ma

Demiurge wrote:

I know all about how high healthcare costs are, or should I say...health insurance costs. Businesses pay out the rearend for their employees to be covered. You see what's on your paycheck, but your employer needs to match dollar for dollar what you put into your medicare account.

But the tax rate on both is only 2.9%... not much of a rearend there. What is your business ponying up for private health insurance as a percantage of wage?

I am sure by now that Employer Indirect Payroll Costs (IPC) have risen to the point of being nearly dollar for dollar vs. direct wages (they were ~$0.80 per dollar the last budget cycle of my working days), but that's the total for all benefit's, including Federally mandated programs, 401k's, private health care. So 3% out of a total of 80+%... really worth calling that out. :rolleyes:

Danny Tse wrote:

... if you look into the components of the cost, the administration of our current system is actually costing us 30+ cents per dollar spend. Countries with universal healthcare systems, such as every other industrialized nation on the planet, use only half our cost for administration.

Actually both systrems in the USA are much better than you are saying. Which is the more efficient, Private or Medicare? Surprise!

Private plans typically have administrative costs eight to ten times that of Original Medicare. Whereas Medicare uses less than 2 percent of funds for administrative costs, private plans, on average, use 15 percent of funds for administrative costs.
Sources:
“Medicare Administrative Expenditures as a Percentage of Medicare Benefit Payments, 1979-2000," Medicare Chartbook, 2nd ed., Kaiser Family Foundation, Fall 2001.
Inspector General, Department of Health and Human Services, “Adequacy of Medicare's Managed Care Payments After the Balanced Budget Act of 1997," September 2000.

I've seen more recent data, very similar, but could not find it on the web.

Danny Tse wrote:

I do think the government need to step in.

It's not a matter of hoping the Gov will or won't... It is going to have to. Look around folks, the days of employer provided retiree health care benefits are going fast. So far I still have that option, but expect a letter any day now. Retirement Health Care is not, and never has been, a guaranteed benefit. Almost nightly we see another example of Corporate America dumping it's soon-to-be-former workers on the Government. And the cost of doing that is going to have to come from somewhere, so expect the Medicare tax to rise...

Frivilous lawsuits, fraud, etc., popular targets, but all drops in the proverbial bucket. The real reason health care costs are rising, and will continue to rise? A Catch 22 Joseph Heller would be proud of... More people are living longer.

1. Medicare covers 41 million Americans, including 35 million people over age 65 and 6 million people under age 65 who have Medicare based on disability or End-Stage Renal Disease (ESRD). 1 The total Medicare population is projected to grow to 46 million in 2010, 61 million in 2020 and 77 million in 2030.
Source:“Data Book: Health Care Spending and the Medicare Program," MedPAC, June 2003

My Mother is 80 now. She's still independent and active, but only thanks to procedures and med's that were not available even as recently as 20 years ago. Worth every penny I've paid in...