15 x 7 wheel options

RuSsMaN

I haven't bought aftermarket in years, so I don't know where to even begin.

I'll be getting another daily driver soon, and plan to keep the S-10, and finish 'working it up'. I've got 15x7 factory alloys, what's out there inexpensive, for a performance gain? I run 255 60/15 BFG T/A's right now, stock size is 205 70/15. I mention that, because I've enjoyed a Toyo radial in the stock size too. Where do you draw the line, between performance, and size? Go as wide as possible?

Looking to loose weight, not interested in bling. Thinking I may drop a few beads and shells into the suspension, and try some SCCA Solo or Club racing.

Cheers,
Russ

faster100

why don't ya drop a small block in that s-10? I have a neighbor with an old 82-83 S-10 i wanna buy and drop a 305 or 350 in.. Far as wheels the s-10 will take any chevy car wheel as well.. think its the same bolt pattern.. 5 lug. Not sure what models/brands or tire options to try.

MacLeod

I really like Weld wheels. I know of them from the truck perspective so Im not sure if they make performance wheels or not but I do know them to make bulletproof wheels that are guaranteed true.

http://weldwheels.com/

RuSsMaN

Cliff, how do you know I haven't already?

Mac, I'll refill my pint, and check Weld out!

faster100

AH? I don't.. LOL

weld are bad ****.. all my racer friends run em.. yes pop some 3 1/2" on the front and 10" er's on the back.. that S-10 would look sweet..

hellohello

just get some cragars and be done with it

Jstas

Dropping a small block in the front end is the absolute worst thing you can do if you want to go SCCA racing. The only thing a small block in a small truck is good for is drag racing and even then you need suspension work out the wazoo. Otherwise, it's just a hot rod with a big engine. Fast, excessive, loud and dangerous...just the way I like 'em!



If you want to go for high performance then you need to find a compromise between performance and weight. The best thing to do is forget about fancy wheels for daily driving and get yourself a set of track wheels. Put racing rubber on them and use them for track events only. When the track event is done, pull the racing wheels/tires off and put the street ones back on.

If you want to go SCCA racing, wheels and tires are the first thing on the list. I would get the following:

- Wheels for racing (not necessarily Weld)
- Racing tires to put on the wheels
- Adjustable shocks/struts (Koni or Tokico have good units)
- Higher rate springs (not necessarily lower, Eibach makes sport springs for many applications, you may need drop shackles for the rear leaf springs)
- Stiffer sway bars
- Urethane bushing set
- A light, floor jack
- A mechanic's tool set w/ small toolbox
- A portable compressed air canister (don't need to lug a compressor around if all you need is the tank)
- Compressor at home to fill the tank
- Helmet

That would get you started in the parking lot racing Solo classes. I don't think any of those mods would violate any class rules but if you want to get into it, find out what class your vehicle and driving skill fit best and prepare your vehicle for that class. You should get a seperate set of wheels and be prepared to be replacing brakes more often. You could upgrade the brakes but if you go bigger, that will necessitate bigger wheels too.

As far as chosing wheels, you want to keep the light. The less unsprung weight you are slinging around a track, the better the car's overall response to braking, steering and throttle inputs will be. So if you have 15x7's and your stock size is 205/70/R15 then:

a 16 inch wheel would need a 225/60/R16 to maintain the overall wheel diameter
a 17 inch wheel would need a 245/50/R17 to maintain the overall wheel diameter
an 18 inch wheel would need a 265/40/R18 to maintain the overall wheel diameter

You don't necessarily need to go wider. The whole idea is to increase contact patch. A taller wheel will do that, so will a wider wheel. If you want to stay within your stock size so that gearing doesn't change, you will need to go wider to increase the contact patch. If you don't care about the gearing, you can go taller but beware that changing your overall wheel size will affect gearing. You need to figure out what you are looking for before playing with that kind of sizing.

For the street, you want a compromise between performance and comfort. Because of that, it is ill advised to go with a tire that has a sidewall shorter than 2.5 inches. Also, at that point, you are losing the benefits of a low profile tire because the sidewall is too stiff and the tire will respond abruptly and the loss of traction occurs very quickly and often without warning. For novice and inexperienced racers, this just leads to trouble.

For racing, the lighter the wheel, the better. If you go to tirerack.com, they list wheel weights and have a decent selection of racing tires too. You can see what is out there in the way of wheels. An S-10 is heavy comparbly to other vehicles you might be racing. You will want as much rubber as you can fit without going too high in the weight department or affecting the performance of the suspension. For your purposes, I would go with a 245/50/R17 on a set of 17x8 inch wheels. That will give you a large contact patch with a 3 inch sidewall. You might have better luck finding more suitable tires in a 245/45/R17. It is a more popular size and it is about a half inch smaller than the 245/50.

As far as springs and other suspension stuff goes, Eibach makes sport springs that would be adequate for you. H&R also makes springs that would work well too. The biggest issue is that you do not want your vehicle laying in the weeds unless you are going to do serious suspension work. Lowering the suspension changes teh geometry of the suspension. It can reduce travel, cause binding and throw off the center of gravity and roll centers which will hurt you wany more than help you. I would not select a spring that will drop it more than 1-1.5 inches. Also, springs are not for dampening or roll control. They control how fast the wheel responds to change sin teh road surface and steering input. Shocks/struts and sway bars control the load, springs only hold it up.

You want larger sway bars to reduce body roll. If the roll angle gets too steep when you are conering, you can push the weight of the vehicle over the center of gravity and then you lose it in the turns in one way or another. Sway bars connect teh two sides of a suspension and help reduce roll by using the unloaded side of teh suspension to anchor the loaded side in a turn.If you put urethane bushings on your sway mounts and end links, you will get better performance because the whole assembly will flex less. That means it's stiffer and more effective. You can also get urethane bushings for your shocks/strut mounts and for your upper and lower control arms. they require much more effort but are totally worth it. You just need to make sure they stay greased or they will squeak and chatter like a naked **** sliding across patent leather.

Shocks/Struts should be adjustable so you can set them for the track when you get there and when you are done, you can put them back to street comfort levels. Also, they help you "dial in" the vehicle in the turns so you can wring the most performance out of your suspension. Add to that the fact that they are often a better product than anything stock. You could also get variable valved shocks from Edelbrock or Bilstein. They won't be quite as good for the race track but they will work and they will be spectacular on the street and you won't need to futz around with knobs and guages and such.

One of the best things you can do to improve performance is to move stuff around in the truck. Don't carry ancilliary crap around. Move the battery from under the hood to a box mounted in the bed closer to the rear axle. If you have bucket seats, pull teh passenger seat for the race. Lose the spare tire, jack and tire iron for the race too. Some people pull rear bumpers and install rollpans in the back. Lose teh tailgate for the race too. Tonneau covers or bed caps should get '86'ed too. Anything to drop weight and get your weight balance closer to 50/50 front/rear. Things like aluminum, fiberglas or carbon fiber hoods are bit more extreme but just as effective. If you have big stereo gear, lose that before you even leave the house. Putting the truck (and you) on a diet is the best thing you can do to improve performance. A good rule of thumb to get an idea of how much of a difference it can make is from drag racing. For every 100 pounds of weight you drop, you will pick up 1/10th of a second in the 1/4 mile. That is almost a car length. So if you have a 4,000 pound vehicle running 13.2 in teh 1/4 mile and you have a duplicate vehicle where the only difference is 500 pounds less weight, the other vehicle will be mid 12's. Around 12.7 second in teh 1/4 mile. Half a second difference is getting your doors blown off.


Anyhoo, that's if you wanna go racing. If you are just looking to improve performance to get a bit more fun for daily driving, go for the 245/50/R17's on 17x8 inch wheels, grab the Eibach springs, put some Edlebrock or Bilstein shocks on and maybe the sway bars and bushings if you are so inclined. That would make a drastic improvement for daily use and cost you less than $2500 total. Wheels and tires are expensive!

If you want more info on how to get started in amateur ranks, here are a couple articles with good info on how to get started in SCCA or drag racing. both are good places to get your teeth cut on racing. Watch it though, once the bug bites, this audio stuff will go out the window! You thought speakers and amps were expensive, you ain't seen nuthin' yet!

For SCCA racing:
http://modernmusclecars.net/forums/articles.php?do=autox

For Drag Racing:
http://modernmusclecars.net/forums/articles.php?do=drbasics

Some useful math equations for figuring out your car:
http://modernmusclecars.net/forums/articles.php?do=math

PolkThug

If you want to take corners hard, look for a tire with a treadwear of 200 or less.

Jstas

PolkThug wrote:

If you want to take corners hard, look for a tire with a treadwear of 200 or less.

No. 200 or less is one thing. It just means that it is a soft tire. You also need to take into account heat ranges and traction ratings. For a beginner, I wouldn't worry about that stuff just yet. It's getting way too complicated and he needs to learn the limits of his ride before he goes messing around with details that he doesn't know what they are going to do. Once he starts running and see what his setup will do compared to others, he'll be able to ask questions and look at other rides and see what they did and how it affected thier performance.

hoosier21

If you are planning on racing, going into those hard turns you need to upgrade your beer holder to this.

madmax

For SCCA parking lot races weight is a big deal. Every 15 pounds or so equates to about one horsepower. I suggest carrots, celery and bran cerial.
madmax

PolkThug

Jstas wrote:

No. 200 or less is one thing. It just means that it is a soft tire. You also need to take into account heat ranges and traction ratings. For a beginner, I wouldn't worry about that stuff just yet. It's getting way too complicated and he needs to learn the limits of his ride before he goes messing around with details that he doesn't know what they are going to do. Once he starts running and see what his setup will do compared to others, he'll be able to ask questions and look at other rides and see what they did and how it affected thier performance.

Yeah, I know its just one part of the equation. However, all other things being equal, its one of the most important parts, that if overlooked, could negate the benefits of a great suspension setup.

I didn't want Russ to waste his money on the widest tire he could find, and overlook how hard/soft the tire is.

Sami

RuSsMaN wrote:

Where do you draw the line, between performance, and size? Go as wide as possible?

It all depends what the use for it is. If you are getting a daily driver and this is just for fun then go thin. I switched from 17/245/45 to 18/265/35 and the change was all good (strictly a fun car, not a transport). The car even lost a lot of weight as the 18's are lightweights.

It all depends on what your budget for them is as lightweight wheels are not cheap.

Jstas

Guys, guys, guys....hold on a second.

Number one, PolkThug, I get what you're saying. I was avoiding the compound discussion because it is an advanced topic and for a novice, it'll make his/her head spin.


You guys have to remember that Russ is a relative n00b to this stuff. If you overload him with info, he's going to start worrying about things, not understand why and end up getting things wrong. Let him start small and basic so he can get an idea of what he is getting into and learn something. This is a very fun sport and unlike alot of others out there, it'll really exercise your brain! Don't bother with lightweight wheels, fancy tire compounds and engien swaps. It's too much right now. Let him put together a solid car with a good, balanced base to start with and learn about what he is doing and what his vehicle can actually do.

At this point, you want the vehicle to be forgiving and predictable. Wide tires on heavier wheels will make a ton of noise before they actually break loose and lose control. Simple suspension upgrades like sport springs, shocks and sway bars will also be forgiving but change the vehicle enough to force the driver to have to learn how it behaves. They are small steps and when you are talking about racing and the possibility of getting into trouble with a car that requires more experience behind the wheel than any novice will have, then you are talking about serious consequences. Besides, for a first time foray to just see what it's like, you don't want to build an all-out race rig. If it's not for him, those mods will be very useable and enjoyable in daily or even pleasure driving on streets. About the only thing beyond that that I could see a novice getting into is a brake upgrade but honestly, initial skill and experience will not be great enough for him to push the vehicle to the point where brake failure will be a concern. If he gets there, simple pad upgrades and satinless steel, braided lines would be all he would really need in a showroom stock level class.

faster100

I think you pretty much took care of the overloading ones self with this huge article..

Jstas

Why did you feel the need to quote the entire post?

RuSsMaN

Exactly.

Lots of good info guys, I appreciate it. I've just done an extensive brake job, new rotors, rebuilt the calipers on the front, new hardware on the rear. I may just stick with the factory alloys, and look at tires / suspension first after reading everything here so far.

Is that really true that 15lbs equates to roughly 1hp?

Cheers,
Russ

faster100

exactly! it was the point, you said don't overwhelm him after writeing an essay of info,

Jstas

RuSsMaN wrote:

Is that really true that 15lbs equates to roughly 1hp?

Cheers,
Russ

It doesn't necessarily equate. What he is trying to say is that if you drop 10-15 pounds, the effect created will be like adding 1 HP to the total output of your engine.

What the old timers at the track used to tell me was that 100 pounds = 1/10th in a 1/4 mile. At the same time, to gain a tenth, you'd have to add 10 horsepower. To gain a second, you'd have to add 100 horsepower or drop 1,000 pounds. It's not so easy to drop 1000 pounds but you can add 100 horses fairly cheaply, easily and quickly. However, dropping 100-300 pounds is easy and will make a noticable difference.





faster100, if you were teh expert you talk yourself up to be, you would realize that the topics I discussed were not complicated at all and all I really did was tell Russ why he should make the changes and how the changes will work. Yes, it is alot of info but cars and racing are complicated things. I could talk about tread compounds, heat ratings, traction ratings and spring rates and corner balances, roll centers,high performancebraking systems, braking techniques, unsprung weight, rotating mass, tire deflection angles and so on and so forth but that is really far beyond what a new racer really needs to be in to.

Ah hell, at least I didn't tell him to drop a 400+ pound lump of iron over the front wheels and instal "big'n'littles" after he said he wanted to go autocrossing.

BTW, not just any Chevy wheel will fit. The S-10's, IIRC, have a 5 x 4.75 inch bolt pattern. It may even be a 5 x 4.5 inch pattern. Not every wheel will fit. Quite a few will but not all will.

Here is a link on how to measure bolt patterns. Don't take anybody's word for it. It is easy enough to do yourself so find out for yourself.

http://www.rsracing.com/tech-wheel.html

I used to sell wheels at Pep Boys and I had so many returns because I listened to a customer who told me so matter-of-factly what the bolt pattern measurement was. I just stopped listening to them and measured it for myself so that they got the right wheel the first time.

Actually, if you want so go-fast goodies, these guys have a decent reputation online and a pretty large selection of parts. They'd be worth looking in to.

http://www.rsracing.com/

Sami

Jstas wrote:

It doesn't necessarily equate.

And then there is the weight effect on braking and lateral acceleration, which is also important if he's considering autocross. Something drag racers don't have to take into account.

Jstas wrote:

Ah hell, at least I didn't tell him to drop a 400+ pound lump of iron over the front wheels and instal "big'n'littles" after he said he wanted to go autocrossing.

Didn't you jump all over me a long time ago when I told someone to make sure to pay attention to cars weight balance when considering engine options?

faster100

Blah blah blah, and after i told him to do it.. Russ said. How do i know he didn't.. assuming he must have. Its done all the time. It was sorta a "hey do this" kinda thing.. Not a essay on how to run the pro circuit.. I never acted like i knew everything or anything, just my comments, personal knowledge and friends knowledge.. I said car wheels would fit, NOT any wheels. jerkoff..

I'm not gonna gum up Russ's thread so i'll end it here!! your the one who thinks they know EVERY SINGLE ANSWER, Just get over it..

Jstas

Dude, what do you think drag racers do at the end of a run? Keep going? Brakes are important no matter what kind of racing you are doing.

Honestly, I don't remember and if I did, I either misread the statement or there were other things involved beyond just dumping a big engine in an already nose-heavy little truck. It really depends on the vehicle. Weight matters no matter what but it's affect on how the car handles can be quite different depending on where it is situated in teh chassis.

Jstas

faster100 wrote:

Blah blah blah, and after i told him to do it.. Russ said. How do i know he didn't.. assuming he must have. Its done all the time. It was sorta a "hey do this" kinda thing.. Not a essay on how to run the pro circuit.. I never acted like i knew everything or anything, just my comments, personal knowledge and friends knowledge.. I said car wheels would fit, NOT any wheels. jerkoff..

I'm not gonna gum up Russ's thread so i'll end it here!! your the one who thinks they know EVERY SINGLE ANSWER, Just get over it..

OOOOOOO! Tough guy words! Hey, I must be moving up in the world, huh?

I don't know EVERYTHING. It's hard to know everything. I do know alot and what I don't know, I know how and where to go to find the info. I've said it before, my experience with the stuff is getting to the point where it can be measured in decades for a time line. I don't ride my friends coattails and brag about how they did this or they did that. I have my own experience and work to speak for me. My hands have gotten dirty many times. I've heard all the lines, saw all the myths and misconceptions and even tried a few myself only to find out the hard way. I've been around enough and I have seen enough in my time at the track(s) to know who is full of BS and who isn't.

Oh and not all car wheels will fit the lug pattern of an S-10. You'd have to go back to the late 70's and early 80's to find most of the cars with bolt patterns that will fit and have the proper backspacing and offset to clear the suspension parts, fenders and brakes. But you knew that already, right?

BTW, are your eyes brown?

Sami

Jstas wrote:

Dude, what do you think drag racers do at the end of a run? Keep going? Brakes are important no matter what kind of racing you are doing.

Lets just say they aren't as crucial as in road racing where braking power is as important as engine power.

Jstas wrote:

Honestly, I don't remember and if I did, I either misread the statement

I know, it wasn't as simple as that and you did misunderstand my meaning back then. I just found it funny so I had to comment (and make sure I included a smiley, afterall these conversations aren't meant to be all serious).

faster100

Jstas wrote:

OOOOOOO! Tough guy words! Hey, I must be moving up in the world, huh?

Never seen where i was acting tough, :rolleyes:

Oh that's right, know it all.. Ive meet many people like you who think they have all the answers.. decades of experience and your what? 20 something :rolleyes:

Jstas

Heh. Now age is the factor in determining experience? Just because I'm 28, I couldn't possibly have more than 10 years experience, could I? Reality check, fool. I have it on good authority that my first word was not mom or dad but, car. I've been hanging around cars since I was old enough to walk. I've had family members working for various manufacturers as salemen, mechanics, even managers. My father worked for TRW. You might know them, then again, you might not. Damn near every car on the road has some technology in it that TRW made. You've come in contact with it if you ever had an airbag deploy or strapped yourself in with a seatbelt.

Check 'em out, you might learn something: http://www.trw.com/home/main/0,,,FF.html

When you are submerged in an environment like that, you can't help but start picking things up. By the age of 10, my father was showing me how to rebuild small engines off of lawnmowers and I was helping him with brakes jobs, oil changes and other shadetree mechanic stuff. By the age of 13, he was paying me to do the work for him. At 16, I was already running race cars at the dragstrip with friends. No license needed for the race track. By the age of 19, I was running an 83 Mustang GT I rebuilt by myself and successfully running low 12 second 1/4 miles on street tires. The car was capable of low 11's on slicks but I didn't have the money for a cage. At 20 years of age, I was working part time at Pep Boys doing counter work and the shop manager had me helping out in the shop when he was down a mechanic. During that time, I got involved in SCCA autocross and was using a rather heavy and large but very comfortable 94 Thunderbird LX. I lost time for racing while I concentrated on finishing school. I did start working on my next project which is overhauling my first truck with the goal of hitting a magazine cover with it. I kinda had to stop in the middle what with graduating and spending roughly a year in Hawaii for business. Now though, to get the extra cash I need to do it, I am working part time at a diesel repair shop, repairing all kinds of heavy diesels from Mack to Kenworth and all kinds of heavy/construction equipment.

I don't try to make anybody feel inadequate. Am I a know-it-all? No. Only simple, weakminded fools like you think so. Do I know alot about this automotive stuff? Hell yes. I wouldn't have been able to have some of the jobs I have had or keep the one I have now if I didn't. All I have ever tried to do is help people. I'm only a jerk to **** like you who run thier mouths and all that comes out is BS. You are full of crap and you need to check yourself before you go giving someone advice that they are gonna take and get themselves hurt in one way or another.

You're just like every putz in a bar who comes up to me and the conversation starts with "Hey, is that YOUR Lightning out there?" Then I get to hear about how thier buddy has a car or they used to have a car that was so much better and faster than my truck. Then they would say that they would show me the car and all of it's dual qudrajet tunnel ram manifolds with tuned headers that ran negative 1/4 mile times bone stock. Then of course they can't because they broke a left-handed knibblin' pin or some other silly **** and wrecked it out on I295 before they completed the run through Bordentown. Dude, nobody cares. You aren't impressing anyone with the talk of engine swaps and how great your racing buddies are and how cool 3.5 inch wide tires look and so on and so forth. If I wanted to hear about how great your buddies are and how great thier cars are, I'd ask them. Not you.

Bottom line, I have roughly 18 years of experience and still going, doing actual mechanical work on vehicles. I have learned alot in that time. I currently have a job working as a mechanic fixing vehicles that people rely on to make a living. I have a customer base that has told me face to face that they are very happy with the work I do, are pleased that they don't have to bring vehicles back because the problem wasn't fixed the first time and that they appreciate my honesty and professional behavior when dealing with them. Add to that the fact that I am heavily involved in a national club sponsored by Ford called the SVTOA. I have had the opportunity to maintain my racing hobby at a greatly reduced cost through my involvement with this club. That and my involvement has afforded me the opportunity to converse with, at length, high profile members of Ford Motor Company that most people only read about in newspapers and magazines. I have alot to speak of and I have a very colorful past because I have made decisions and taken actions that have allowed me to do what I have done. If I can speak at length with accuracy, about automotive subjects and that is only my hobby, imagine what I could tell you about my day job if I was allowed to discuss it?

So, what have you done? Not your buddies, not some guy you know, not some relative you have, you. What have you done?

faster100

:rolleyes: Oh my God john you are seriously over compensating for something or lack their of.. Good grief, Unlike you i don't have to brag what i know or have done and list a chronalogical list from birth till now.. :rolleyes:

Jstas

You stated "decades of experience and your what? 20 something"

Obviously you are questioning my experience.

Again I will ask you. What have you done? Where's your experience?