Does an external DAC level the transport field...?

steveinaz

Lately I've been considering going to a single transport, namely a DVD player to do all of my disc chores. Something has held me back though, fearing that I won't like the job even a formidable/well built DVD player will do with my 2-channel audio. Audio has always been the priority in my system, and video a very distant 2nd, so the proposition of using a universal DVD Player to do it all has always made me a bit nervous.

So....

While home today, I decided to finally put this internal debate to rest. The outcome; either I stay with seperate CDP and DVDP or I continue researching nice DVD do-it-all machines. I hooked up my $129, 4 year old Panasonic (not even progressive scan) DVD to my Benchmark DAC1 via fiber, on the DAC1's Toslink input, left my CD player (CEC CD-3300) connected to the DAC1's AES/EBU input; this makes switching back and forth a simple/seamless matter of flipping the input select switch on the front of the Benchmark.

As you can see right away, if you believe in such things, the Panny is already at a disadvantage (if not by default); it's connected via cheap Toslink cable and the $600 dedicated CDP is connected via a very nicely built AES/EBU 1ft cable. many may call foul already---but hold on, you haven't heard the results yet....

Deep in my soul I want the $129 Panny to loose its ****. Badly, easily. Just because. All I can tell you is this; I've been listening for about 3.5 hrs today, switching between the Toslink/Panny and XLR/CEC with all kind of genre of music, and I honestly cannot definitively say that there is any difference in reproduction. Sure, there's a small voice in my head saying "can't you hear that slightly better resolution in the CEC? Sure you can, there's no way this POS Panny is rivaling it as a transport." It's just not there, or if it is my ears can't detect it--but I doubt that, though I have a bad left ear, I'm a very good listener and detect very minute tonal changes relatively easily (Wes can verify this for you).

So, I'm gonna keep testing--Being originally from the "show me" state I don't convince easily. I'm a better "long-term" listener, so I'm going to run the Panny exclusively for a week as my redbook CD player and see if anything surfaces. I'll keep you posted...

UPDATE Go here:
http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showpost.php?p=385746&postcount=41

mldennison

well that is interesting. although i have heard alot of people say that as long as you are totally on the difital side, that "bits are bits" and that bits are very easy to transmit...

guess i will have to do some investigating on my own.

steveinaz

When you try it, you've got to be extremely "honest" with yourself---if you think you hear a difference, listen very closely to a small segment of the track, then switch over to your dedicated CDP and listen to the same segment as quick as possible. Do it 4 or 5 times to verify.

jcaut

I consider myself to be in the "bits is bits" category, just from what I know about the technical side of it. I don't have an external DAC, so I've never actually tried to hear whether or not that is true. So my opinion is just an opinion.

I have found though, in listening for other subltle sound changes, that listening for a while to one-- get used to it-- then switch back, works best for me. I've not had much luck with the A-B type comparison except on really obvious differences.

Jason

steveinaz

Agree with your 2nd statement, same with me--I do better with long-term listening because I hear more of my music that I'm very familiar with.

I'm still not convinced that 'bits is bits" though, as if this were the case, I would expect my DAC to "fix" the rolled off highs, muddy midrange, and fairly flat soundstage of XM broadcasts, it doesn't. I tried my Polk XM tuner numerous times thru my Benchmark, and all though it does tighten and deepen the bass, and cleans up the mids somewhat, it still can't overcome the other issues. I know it's a limitation of the XM broadcast and not the tuner itself.

thehaens@cox.net

Steve

I feel you, a couple years ago a buddy of mine that worked for an A/V shop brought his "reference" CD player (Meridian), the model escapes me. He swore that there was a difference in a dedicated CD player and a DVD player. I was using then, and still using now an older Toshiba SD-9200 DVD player that I purchased from his store on Close out.

He heard a difference, but to be honest I didn't. Trust me, I wanted to. We spent an afternoon listening to, as you did, different genres of music from jazz to heavy metal. And I still couldn't figure what he was "hearing" that I wasn't.

So I figured since I couldn't here a difference there wasn't an even remote desire to upgrade to a stand alone.

It is all subjective to the listener. And in his case he reconciled it within himself that his Meridian was "better" than my Toshiba..

FWIW - I am sticking to my DVD player..

Scott

AsSiMiLaTeD

very cool write up steve

if your results hold up over the next few days, this opens up several more possibilities for a couple systems I'm building...

A little off topic, you ever heard any of the Parasound DACs? I can't afford the banchmark you've got, but I've been looking at ways to improve my system and have been looking at a new CDP, maybe my money would be better spent on a separate DAC?

steveinaz

I can definitely detect a difference between my DVD player using it's own DAC's and my CDP/DAC combo; that takes about 3 seconds of listening and I definitely wouldn't do this minus the DAC. The Panny is more shrill, especially at higher volumes, bass is boomier and less controlled---and not as deep as with the Benchmark. Midrange is also lacking and the digital glare is there. I've heard that your Toshiba makes a very nice standalone though, and I'm sure it miles above this cheapie Panasonic in SQ for sure.

AsSiMiLaTeD

How did you know I have a Toshiba? I do have one, but I just picked up, and don't think I've mentioned it on here yet...

That's just creepy

steveinaz

Polkmaniac wrote:

very cool write up steve

if your results hold up over the next few days, this opens up several more possibilities for a couple systems I'm building...

A little off topic, you ever heard any of the Parasound DACs? I can't afford the banchmark you've got, but I've been looking at ways to improve my system and have been looking at a new CDP, maybe my money would be better spent on a separate DAC?

Your first comment was exactly what I was thinking.

I've never heard any of the Parasounds'. I have personal experience with the Bel Canto and Benchmark. Until I can afford a + 5k CDP (I never will), the Benchmark will be a main-stay in my rig, it's that good.

jcaut

Like you said though, the rolled off highs, flat soundstage, etc., are limitations of XM, because of the lossy compression. You can't fix problems inherent in the format, just like you're not going to make a 16-bit CD sound like SACD by switching DACs.

Running the digital out from the XM tuner to your external DAC you're just going to hear the difference in the two converters. And most everyone agrees that there are differences there. The DAC in the Polk XM tuner is supposed to be pretty good, however.

Regarding the differences in transports: One thing that might be important is the quality of error correction. Even if "bits are bits" they still have to be read correctly and reliably. That's a characteristic of the transport, right? And it could be important on scratched or dirty discs,--- any disc actually, as most of them seem to have errors.

steveinaz

Polkmaniac wrote:

How did you know I have a Toshiba? I do have one, but I just picked up, and don't think I've mentioned it on here yet...

That's just creepy

I was addressing Gunny's post above (Thehaens@cox.ne).

thehaens@cox.net

steveinaz wrote:

I've heard that your Toshiba makes a very nice standalone though, and I'm sure it miles above this cheapie Panasonic in SQ for sure.

It may have been built with CD SQ in mind, it does have a audio only bypass that takes the video circuit out of the loop when you listen to CD's. But again, to be honest I don't here a difference when I bypass the video, I just use it to make me feel better.

thehaens@cox.net

Of topic -

Steve - Was it you that said in a previous post that you lost some of your hearing to a M60? Dating yourself a bit.......huh? :rolleyes:

jcaut

If you get a transport with really good error correction will it still play your "Wham" CD? Entire genres of music, gone! :eek:

Wouldn't that be something!

steveinaz

jcaut wrote:

Regarding the differences in transports: One thing that might be important is the quality of error correction. Even if "bits are bits" they still have to be read correctly and reliably. That's a characteristic of the transport, right? And it could be important on scratched or dirty discs,--- any disc actually, as most of them seem to have errors.

Error correction is not nearly as important as inherent jitter. Error correction is an off/on thing; either you hear the results of error correction (a skip/pop/repeating of the sound) or you hear nothing---because the error was corrected. In other words, there will be no mistaking error correction when it happens--it's not subtle.

aaharvel

steveinaz wrote:

there's a small voice in my head saying "can't you hear that slightly better resolution in the CEC? Sure you can, there's no way this POS Panny is rivaling it as a transport." It's just not there, or if it is my ears can't detect it--

Placebo.
Excellent writeup.

steveinaz

thehaens@cox.ne wrote:

Of topic -

Steve - Was it you that said in a previous post that you lost some of your hearing to a M60? Dating yourself a bit.......huh? :rolleyes:

Yep my left ear is not too good. Not deaf or anything, but it's definitely not as good as my right ear. My ear plug fell out during a night fire exercise but I had to continue to fire...my ear was "crackling" for a week after that.

steveinaz

jcaut wrote:

If you get a transport with really good error correction will it still play your "Wham" CD? Entire genres of music, gone! :eek:

Wouldn't that be something!

Wham....LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!! Man, how **** am I? LOL!!!

thehaens@cox.net

Well I hope the VA helped you out on this one. I am sure being around 155's for the past 4 years hasn't exactly helped my hearing........

steveinaz

aaharvel wrote:

Placebo.
Excellent writeup.

Thanks, I'm still skeptical and this ain't over yet. Like I said, I'll run the Panny all this week exclusively and see if I note anything not sounding "right."

steveinaz

thehaens@cox.ne wrote:

Well I hope the VA helped you out on this one. I am sure being around 155's for the past 4 years hasn't exactly helped my hearing........

Never claimed it, it's more of a loss of high frequencies than it is of level. Things sound just as loud in my left---but a touch muffled at very high freqs.

reeltrouble1

PM,

I hooked a POS shuffle player to a Parasound ultra 2000 via the toslink, I heard definite improvement I would call a smoother overall tonal quality, more liquid so to speak. Prior to the DAC I was running the shuffle player via analog out directly to the Dodd MLP.

I was satisfied with the improvement, however, I would say that Redbook still sounds better on my better upsampling/oversampling players not using the DAC. But we are talking 1000-1200 players compared to a 250.00.

Hope that helps a bit Danny.

RT1

AsSiMiLaTeD

Thanks for the info. I may look in to getting a DAC then. I mentioned Parasound because I have become a huge fan of theirs lately. The amp I bought sold me on them in the first place, but the preamp I just picked up recently is what really did me in. I figured their DACs are fairly cheap and if they're half as good as my preamp, I'm good to go...

Yeah, the possibility of adding a DAC changes my options dramatically since I have 3 systems I'm working on...

rskarvan

I added a nice Adcom DAC and it substantially improved the sound of my JVC cd player. I too don't know if I'd gain any benefit by going to a better transport. The JVC seems to get the job done alright - transferring bits to the DAC. Not certain if I'd here an improvement with a different/better transport. Personally, I doubt that I would.

Danny Tse

Never heard these players, but I would think a transport design such as Pioneer's Stable Platter (plays the CD data side up) or that one from Sony ES (seals the transport from airborne vibration) would improve performance over a simple DVD player's transport mechanism.

george daniel

I added an adcom dac to my rotel cd and it seemed to add more definition and a little more spatial imaging and depth, IMHO to the system,pretty good investment for 200.00.

steveinaz

I continued to listen last night for another 3 hours, various music; still can't put my finger on anything nor detect a difference from the CDP transport. The Marantz DV-7600 is looking better and better.... Especially when you consider the far better build, digital coax out, isolated transport sub-assembly, etc, etc.

I'm surprised Doro has not chimed in with his usual comment:
"you don't hear a difference because your CD Player sucks."

danger boy

steveinaz wrote:

I'm surprised Doro has not chimed in with his usual comment:
"you don't hear a difference because your CD Player sucks."

:eek:

steveinaz

He does it just to bust my balls. I think it's funny.

Normanality

Hi Steve,

I have a Marantz DV-6500 and have loved the clear sound....

until

I did an A-B using the digital out of the Marantz to a Parasound 2000 Ultra DAC and a set of Nordost SPM's from the Marantz to another input on my preamp. This way I could play a single cd and with the touch of button on the remote, hear the difference between the internal and external DAC.
The improvement with the Parasound was significant! I played a number of cd's and music styles and couldn't believe how audible the difference was.
I have now replaced the DV-6500 for everyday listening with a Parasound transport and still have the Marantz connected directly to the preamp for certain SACD and DVD audio music.