This Baby Looks Tight, huh?

knownalien_

yummy!

McLoki

Still $1200 for a sub that goes down to 30hz (-3db point). Not near enough for me to trade in my SVS.

Michael

jdhdiggs

^^^^ Agreed, it's tuned too high for today's market at that price range

billbillw

I bet an SVS PC+ (or PB12+) would walk all over it for a few hundred less out of pocket.

McLoki

billbillw wrote:

I bet an SVS PC+ (or PB12+) would walk all over it for a few hundred less out of pocket.

Let alone the SVS PB12-Ultra that it is priced against......

knownalien_

so the frequency response is down to 20 but you are saying it won't be very loud that low?

knownalien_

McLoki wrote:

Let alone the SVS PB12-Ultra that it is priced against......

beautiful looking sub.

audiobliss

knownalien_ wrote:

so the frequency response is down to 20 but you are saying it won't be very loud that low?

Exactly. The overall frequency response tells you what frequencies it will produce. The +/-3db frequency range tells you which are audible. You pretty much just ignore the overall rating and go with the +/-3db limits.

And I agree, 30Hz ain't nearly low enough. You can even forget price for a minute. 2 10" woofers. 400 continuous watts. Should be able to go lower than 30Hz.

jdhdiggs

knownalien_ wrote:

so the frequency response is down to 20 but you are saying it won't be very loud that low?

There's nothing garunteeing that it will be loud above that either. Typically Polk seems to do a -3/-10 rating so I'd guess it's 10 dB down at 20 which would actually not be bad for most subs that you'd find at tweeter or CC.

I'm guessing the tuning point is about 26-27 range but the woofs are already straining coming into that range.... I'll take a listen and give it a fair shot.

knownalien_

but with two 10" woofers and so much power only effective to 30 hz? It's the same rating as my LSi15's!!

It's gotta be a misprint. They've done that before.

knownalien_

even the RTi12's are rated at 30 Hz.

jdhdiggs

Let me let you in on a little secret, I'm guessing that this sub is meant more for supplementing the bass rather than replacing the bass produced by a speaker. Most people don't have enough amp to drive the bass sections to full volume so a sub is needed regardless of the speaks.

Airplay355

Rti12's have three 7" bass drivers. That's alot of surface area.

8 minutes and I can leave work Yippee!!

knownalien_

Airplay355 wrote:

Rti12's have three 7" bass drivers. That's alot of surface area.

reguardless, they are still rated at 30hz (-3db point).

knownalien_

jdhdiggs wrote:

Let me let you in on a little secret, I'm guessing that this sub is meant more for supplementing the bass rather than replacing the bass produced by a speaker. Most people don't have enough amp to drive the bass sections to full volume so a sub is needed regardless of the speaks.

that's not a secret. how it will perform is.

jdhdiggs

You missed the point...

This is/does not appear to be a HT sub, rather one to fill out the lower octives only. That is completley different from a Velo, Rel, SVS, HSU, etc.. which would replace all the bass and perform for HT. This looks to be a music only, close to full range speaker only sub. A match for say the LSi9-15 crowd.

Airplay was giving you a reason as to why the 12's are rated so low. What was your point with your response?

Also, 30 isn't THAT bad, the problem is that DIY, HSU, and SVS make 20Hz easily obtainable in that price range.

knownalien_

jdhdiggs wrote:

You missed the point...

This is/does not appear to be a HT sub, rather one to fill out the lower octives only. That is completley different from a Velo, Rel, SVS, HSU, etc.. which would replace all the bass and perform for HT. This looks to be a music only, close to full range speaker only sub. A match for say the LSi9-15 crowd.

Airplay was giving you a reason as to why the 12's are rated so low. What was your point with your response?

Also, 30 isn't THAT bad, the problem is that DIY, HSU, and SVS make 20Hz easily obtainable in that price range.

it's no secret because the very fact that it is an LSi compliment means that it is intended for audio (multi channel at that). I am still trying to see what point I missed. In the second place, I am not looking for anything other than a musical sub. If you'd read anything else that I posted you may have noticed that that is my primary enjoyment. Also, I couldn't get the specs on the SVS's.

as for airplay, the speakers have the same rating as the PSW1000 as do my speakers. Do those specs mean the system as a whole or each individual woofer, in which case the PSW1000 would be X2 and the RTi12 would be X3?

the point of my post is the point above which equates -3 db in the 30 range as not so hot.

McLoki

knownalien_ wrote:

Also, I couldn't get the specs on the SVS's.

Here is a quote from SVS for the ultra sub....

Multiple tuning points allow you the customer to experiment with "lower than low" bass at their leisure. As it is, the PB12-Ultra is tuned stock to 20Hz (with all three ports firing), which will yield strong response to around 15Hz with mid-sized rooms and corner placement. Above this point is where nearly all music and movie bass is centered. It also is the most efficient mode for the PB12-Ultra; with amazing sound pressure level capacity, and incredible accuracy to the source material at all sound pressure levels, low or loud. Want deeper? If you willing to give up a few decibels in SPL capacity above 20Hz (and the PB12-Ultra has more "headroom" than most folks will use), then insert one, or even two port plugs, click over the subsonic filter knob to the corresponding 16Hz or 12Hz position and you are there. Most users would experience strong output to around 15Hz with good placement in a typical room with a 20Hz setup. This is the sort of bass that is just plain scary when done with low distortion. but it's one of the reasons SVS's are so famous! Room size and shape will largely determine how much. Of course for those desirous of impeccable natural wood finishes the Ultra will be worth the price of admission even without more performance.

Michael

jdhdiggs

Gotcha! All of the woofers are contributing at the 30 hz. So in the case of 2 drivers, each one by itself is -9db down (-6 dB below it's individual tune point and falling fast) Add the two together (+6) and you get -3 db for the system. This has no voluime associated to it though. My guess is that the long throw dual 10's would go louder than the RTi12's but this is part of the reason why people say thes specs, and frequency response graphs, are almost worthless beyond a very general sense of capabilities.

HBombToo

jdhdiggs wrote:

My guess is that the long throw dual 10's would go louder than the RTi12's but this is part of the reason why people say thes specs, and frequency response graphs, are almost worthless beyond a very general sense of capabilities.

I guess shirt waffling and unplanned bowel movements should be added to the SVS spec sheet

jdhdiggs

Well Henry, if you keep insisting on sittin atop the ports, BM's are expected, along with sever flatulance...

knownalien_

jdhdiggs wrote:

but this is part of the reason why people say thes specs, and frequency response graphs, are almost worthless beyond a very general sense of capabilities.

well, that's the jist of it then. say, I have the Avia Guide to home theater DVD. Do you think there are any audio tests which cover the REAL low end?

PolkThug

knownalien_ wrote:

Do you think there are any audio tests which cover the REAL low end?

****' Eileen!

knownalien_

nah, I just checked. nothing.

McLoki

knownalien_ wrote:

well, that's the jist of it then. say, I have the Avia Guide to home theater DVD. Do you think there are any audio tests which cover the REAL low end?

You will certainly find some here.

Don't forget you have to put in some correction values if you are using a radio shack spl meter to read deep (and some not so deep) bass tones.

Just plot yourself a curve and see how your sub works in your room...

Michael

knownalien_

^^ thanks!

michael_w

You can't judge everything by its specs...

reeltrouble1

michael_w wrote:

You can't judge everything by its specs...

+1^^^^

Exactly, Alien is to be applauded. Since he is new and unconditioned to the HSU/SVS subs his thinking is different. He is trying to learn. He is thinking about how it will sound, and likes the looks, well, most would.

Of course specs are important, they establish the baseline expectations and can be used to get an idea of quality.

I have heard the SVS several times supplementing some fine systems with Polk as well as other fine speakers. Musically, there was nothing remarkable. Sure they can go deep and with great power. In a HT system nothing like it.

The lowest frequency on the piano keyboard if at 27.5 hz, rarely used by artists. Bass Guitar is at 41.2 Hz. So if you can go down to 30 hz with power (-3db) your in good shape. As reference, cymbal crashes are at 15 khz, the highest note on the keyboard 4.1 khz and middle C dividing bass from treble at 261.6 hz. Recording engineers really dont like low bass its difficult to work with and do well. Fortunately for us some do.

I am on record as liking my music 2.nada, I have no issue with any of the fine brands of subs members here like and use, if however, I were using the LSI or RTI bookshelf for a musical system I would not readily dismiss the Polk sub based solely on the specs.

RT1

audiobliss

Good, informative post.

knownalien_

reeltrouble1 wrote:

+ Recording engineers really dont like low bass its difficult to work with and do well.

I think the reason, from the acoustic "live" setting, is two-fold (think classical concert where the recordings are made and cleaned up in a studio, which might not be needed)

#1 live performances do not feature the body feeling bass that listeners take for granted. This complicates things a bit because speakers of the past got folk quite used to "boominess." Now we are fooled into thinking that that is a real worl effect. also, live classical performances competes with regular music and the trend has been to NOT engineer flatly, but to emphasize the extremes in rock and rap. In classical music, many would feel cheated if they didn't get loud bass/bass drums.

#2 during the recording of a live classical performances, the mics tend to pic up low level hums which may not be obvious to the recorder (usually wind noise). Ultimately, for audiophiles, their gear is likely to be MUCH better than that in a studio. Thus, they will be able to pick up stuff the engineers missed. Thus it must be difficult to seperate the low level hum from the same pitched not of a member of the orchestra.

#3 every note starts with a fundamental and after that it is all upper partials/harmonics. If you hit the lowest "a" on a piano, your ear will more easily percieve the higher partials with only a hint of the fundamental. It is a strange fact, and it leaves the engineer wondering if he should "enhance" the bass. The higher you go in range, the more the fundamental speaks to us and no enhancement is neeeded. The same can be said of an upright bass being bowed. If not in it's sweet spot, you'll hear more of the partial(s) than the fundamental. Remember that the 2nd partial is the same note an octave higher. An upright bass would have to be triple its size for lower notes to be able to speak as well as its open D.


but that's all acoutsic stuff. Once you stick stuff through an electronic device, all the rules change.

audiobliss

knownalien_ wrote:

#3 every note starts with a fundamental and after that it is all upper partials/harmonics. If you hit the lowest "a" on a piano, your ear will more easily percieve the higher partials with only a hint of the fundamental.

That is very interesting. Had never heard that before.