it lives - part 2

neomagus00

agreed. i meant that if you have the amount of fuel the ecu would put in, expecting there to be the amount of air there would be with a 10:1 effective compression, but really it's getting that fuel with less air (the effective compression being 8.2:1 because the supercharger is disabled), then it would be a rich mixture. if the ecu properly compensates, it's all a moot point anyways.

faster100

So when people build NOS motors with lower compression to handle the nitrous shot then can't drive them without the NOs? :rolleyes:

That motor won't blow up without the supercharger, It would be better a chance if you stuck that SC on a non blown motor of blowing it up.. electronics would re-time it back down anyways, you think you run full boost at all times? what ya think the compression is at say 30 -40 mph ? its not near full boost around town at those speeds hence its back at 8 or 9 :1 compression and the computer most likely retards the timing and fuel mixture.. A blown motor is nothing more then a low compression motor with a boost (SC ) to increase compression when needed under med to full throttle conditions.. your set up may vary ....

back to the thread, I'm happy for Vince that he got his project straigtened out... But after you answered for him it doesnt make sense.. He removed all the 4 wheel drive stuff to increase speed and power.. then he says he maybe able to hit 90 mph with his rear end setup.. Obviously not a speed demon!!
If that is the truck he had to work with, i can understand that.. But why take a 4x4 rip all the transfer case, front diff and axles out and drop 30K into it when your gonna show it but still beat the snot out of it? those 2 statements don't go together, But that's to each is own.. I think he will have a hard time finding a lead guy to fill the truck and for a 90's truck dodge or otherwise its just not worth it IMO, but that's just me...

enjoy the project though and make it what ya want... But id decide if its a race truck a beater or a show truck first

hellohello

im guessing its a beatable show truck, like a median between the two... Nice enough to pick up chicks, and tough enough to pull things and kill small animals.
can u post some pictures? Id like to see what uve been toiling on oh madman of Mopar

audiobliss

faster100 wrote:

but still beat the snot out of it?

What fun would it be if you didn't beat the snot out of it? I beat the snot out of my Jeep everytime I drive it.




Vinnie - show us some pics!!

faster100

Its fun, but not to something ya dump 30k in and suppose to be a show truck.. ya dig? LOL

audiobliss

nope...LOL...sorry, I just can't comprehend not taking it to redline at least every other time you take off, bringing the rear-end around on every turn, and screeching the tires at every light (that there's not a cop at behind you).

But, that may just be me.

MacLeod

audiobliss wrote:

What fun would it be if you didn't beat the snot out of it? I beat the snot out of my Jeep everytime I drive it.

Wait til you have to pay for them.

audiobliss

Hmm. A more immediate concern is tires!! hehe

exalted512

MacLeod wrote:

Wait til you have to pay for them.

exactly
-Cody

PoweredByDodge

too rich = poopy - clogs up you converter, makes the insides of your pipes look like **** - carbons up the intake and combustion chamber walls... its bad news. too airy = too hot... just run where you should be and don't both trying to "cheat the system".

it is what it is...

hellohello

"too rich = poopy"
I dont know why, but im laughing... a lot

neomagus00

"it is what it is" indeed... but you're talking to a physicist here, i have to understand... you know how most little kids ask "why?" about everything? physicists are the people who don't stop...

Jstas

faster100 wrote:

So when people build NOS motors with lower compression to handle the nitrous shot then can't drive them without the NOs? :rolleyes:

That motor won't blow up without the supercharger, It would be better a chance if you stuck that SC on a non blown motor of blowing it up.. electronics would re-time it back down anyways, you think you run full boost at all times? what ya think the compression is at say 30 -40 mph ? its not near full boost around town at those speeds hence its back at 8 or 9 :1 compression and the computer most likely retards the timing and fuel mixture.. A blown motor is nothing more then a low compression motor with a boost (SC ) to increase compression when needed under med to full throttle conditions.. your set up may vary ....

back to the thread, I'm happy for Vince that he got his project straigtened out... But after you answered for him it doesnt make sense.. He removed all the 4 wheel drive stuff to increase speed and power.. then he says he maybe able to hit 90 mph with his rear end setup.. Obviously not a speed demon!!
If that is the truck he had to work with, i can understand that.. But why take a 4x4 rip all the transfer case, front diff and axles out and drop 30K into it when your gonna show it but still beat the snot out of it? those 2 statements don't go together, But that's to each is own.. I think he will have a hard time finding a lead guy to fill the truck and for a 90's truck dodge or otherwise its just not worth it IMO, but that's just me...

This is crap. Don't listen to word in this post. He obviously has no freaking clue what he is talking about.

Supercharging an engine is NOT running Nitrous through an engine. To achive the same pressure levels inside an engine built for supercharging on as little as 6 pounds of boost, you would need a 250 shot of giggle gas at the least. Even then, that is not street legal and if you got pulled over while on the juice, you'd find out what the inside of a jailcell would look like 'cause nitrous oxide, medial or industrial, is a controlled substance. You'd also get your car impounded.

A supercharged engine has constant boost applied to it. Whether it is at 30 MPH or not doesn't mean jack squat. The number on a stock speedo is disgustingly inaccurate anyway. Boost on a supercharger is determined by not only engine RPM but also pulley ratios and the gear reduction inside the supercharger. Add to that the overall CFM of the supercharger and it's physical capacity be it read in cubic centimeters, liters or cubic inches, it's still displacement. The type of supercharger is important too because a roots blower will not build boost as efficiecntly as a screw-type blower. A screw-type blower also compresses the air while a roots blower is what is known as a positive displacement blower. Basically, it is a big fan and that crams air into the combustion chamber and builds boost that way. The speed of the car has nothing to do with it because I can be travelling at 50 mph in 4th gear and hitting 1800 RPM or I could do it in 1st gear and be hitting 4300 RPM. Care to tell me how much boost I would be running? Wait, better question Mr. Know-it-all, do you even know how much boost the supercharger in my truck makes? You know? Don't bother, I know you're wrong already 'cause you are just going to regurgitate a spec from Ford you found online and I can promise you that I have seen it produce more than that rating on a dynomometer. You do know what one of those is, don't you?

Now, I never said that the engine would "blow up". I said it woudl tear itself apart. How would it do that? Well, for starters, pinging. You obviously, in your mental masturabation here, have proven that you have no freaking clue just how damaging pinging is. Pinging causes stress on a roatating assembly that it was never meant to take. Pinging causes pressure on these parts of a piston called ring lands. These ring lands, when stressed outside of what the parameters on their design specs dictate they were designed for will do a little thing called break. Once they break you get two "phenomena" happening. The first is this neat little thing called BITS OF METAL IN THE ENGINE. For those with even less brains than faster100, that is VERY BAD. Those metal bits are bouncing around in there with a cyclical redundancy of anywhere from 600 times to over 5,000 times per minute. They are chewing up not only the valve seats, the valves, the combustion chamber and that top of the piston but they are also marring the walls of the cylinder. Wanna know why that is so speacial? BECAUSE, if the ring land is broken, you are not getting a proper seal to the wall of the cylinder. An improper seal means a loss in compression. Markings on the cylinders don't help that issue any either. this of course leaves out the fact that you also most likely have a mis-firing spark plug at this point PLUS, you are now experiencing a little problem called "blow-by". Wanna know what that is? That is when the pressurized oil system is forcing motor oil past the rings that are ment to seperate combustion from lubrication. Blow by causes that filtly grayish, blue smoke and ends up coating everything in a filthy soot that destroys performance even more. Another problem with blow by is that you are also getting gasoline into the crankcase. You are getting gasoline into the crankcase because even if you have a V8, you have 7 cylinders operatng normally and one that isn't. The fuel injection system won't always limit fuel delivery on a cylinder by cylinder basis. A few new cars can, most won't. That means that in the cylinder with low compression, you are getting raw, unburned fuel, in the combustion chamber. This oozes down the walls of the cylinder in the other 3 strokes that don't include fire in the operation. Gasoline is thinner that oil so it easily gets past the piston rings. Damaged rings are even easier to get past. Gasoline does't have anywhere near the viscosity of motor oil. The problem there is that it DILUTES the motor oil which drops its viscosity. That drop in viscosity means it doesn't lubricate as well as it should. Know what that means? You have the strong possibility of spinning or seizing a bearing and guess what happens then? You could do a number of things including throwing a rod, punching a connecting rod through a piston, spinning a rod bearing, spinning a main bearing, seizing a rod bearing or even seizing a main bearing. Hell, you could even blow the oil pump and without oil to lube and cool the valve train well, that's just ugly. You know what all that leads to? Yep, a "blown engine".

Now, for this:
"agreed. i meant that if you have the amount of fuel the ecu would put in, expecting there to be the amount of air there would be with a 10:1 effective compression, but really it's getting that fuel with less air (the effective compression being 8.2:1 because the supercharger is disabled), then it would be a rich mixture. if the ecu properly compensates, it's all a moot point anyways."

No, it is not a moot point because you just described a closed-circuit speed density fuel injection system. The only company stupid enough to have been recently using that arcane technology was GM and they did it through most of the 90's in their full-sized trucks and vans. Speed density has an idea of what it needs to run because it has a list of what the values of the air and fuel will be at a given RPM and it adjusts fuel and ignition curves given that information. It doesn't really care what is actually in the engine until the O2 sensor says it is REALLY outta whack or the knock sensor is going bonkers sensing pinging/knocking. The Mass-Air systems and newer systems rely on input from sensors like your Mass Air sensor, your O2 sensor, your knock sensor, your fuel pressure sensor, your oil pressure sensors, your temperature sensor, your idle air control valve...the list goes on. Modern EFI systems take the input from the sensors and adjust your fuel and ignition curves to ensure that the engine is always running at its best for its given configuration. The way it does this is to take the info from the various sensors and use it to extrapolate what the current air/fuel mixture is for the current work load on the engine. It knows what optimum is and it wil adjust fuel and spark to make sure it is as close to the optimum A/F ratio as it can get. If it is extremely far off or does not have input that is within specified parameters or input is not present from a critical system, the computer will switch in to 'limp-home' mode. In most cases it does this by richening the mixture and reducing the amount of ignition timing advance. This reduces overall power and ensures that the engine will not be able to reach it's physical limit, otherwise known as redline, so that when operating under duress, it is in little danger of destroying itself unless left in 'limp-home' more for an extended period of time.

The problems with limp-home mode are quite a few. Yes, the reduced power will save the engine in the short term. The reduced power through an overly rich mixture occurs because the engine has to work harder to get the unspent fuel out of the system. Also, since the air/fuel ratio is not optimum, there is too much fuel to burn and combustion doesn't occur as quickly. That unspent fuel ends up in the catalytic converter and leads to slagging which was discussed in another thread. Excess fuel in the combustion chamber can also lead to cylinder washing. This occurs when the excess gasoline washes the oh so vital lubrictaing motor oil from the cylinder walls and results in less then optimal levels of lubricant being present to ensure trouble-free motion of the piston in the cylinder. This leads to things like scoring of the cylinder walls and worn out rings which lead to blow by and loss of compression and we discussed that already.

Jstas

Sorry, it said my post was too long so here is the rest...all 13K+ characters of it.


Now, why can Vinnie only hit 90 MPH? Because he has 3.91's on a final gear! In gearing, the higher the number, the shorter the gear. 2.87:1 is a very tall gear ratio. It doesn't mean that the vehicle is capable of a high speed. High speed comes with power. Lots of power. Vinnie's 3.91's do not mean that he is capable of only 90 MPH. In actuality, he is quite wrong because I do believe that his engine makes sufficient power to push him well past 100 MPH. The 3.91's means that he is going to do the same amount of work as the 2.87's only he's going to do it .73 times faster. That means that his truck, when lined up against a comparable truck with the only difference being the other truck as 2.87''s vs. his 3.91's, Vinnie will get to his top speed much quicker. However, his overall top speed will be considerably slower, probably over 10 MPH slower. That is, if we didn't have to compensate for aerodynamic drag and the many forces of friction operating against the trucks to roll down the test track.

Now, who wants a primer on how to build a Nitrous Oxide engine vs. a forced induction engine?

By the way, NOS in the automotive world is an abbrevaition for New Old Stock. When reffering to Nitrous Oxide, the chemical name is not NOS but rather NO2. However, the 2 is an exponential form and most forums do not support exponential fonts. For those that do not know where the relationship between nitrous oxide and NOS comes from, it's quite simple. NOS is what the kiddies who drive the Honduh Civics use to refer to Nitrous Oxide Systems, a company that builds power-adder systems for your car that utilize nitrous oxide (NO2) as the power adder. The only people who use the term "NOS" are the short bus riders who want to look cool and make people think they have a clue as to what they are talking about. It is insulting to those of us who do because we actually took the time to learn and didn't get our education from a bunch of wannabe hot rodders on an internet forum.

Why do I get pissed about this? Because, I learned the hows and whys. I read the books, I got my hands dirty. I've raced the cars, I've built the engines, I've broken the parts, I've been left on the side of the road holding the assemblance of what used to be a vital part in my hands waiting for the tow truck to pick my sorry **** up. I've been there, done that and I've gotten quite a few T-shirts. I have forgetten more about automotive stuff than most people will know in thier entire lives. I have the skill. I've put in the time. I am so good at it that I can make an honest living at it and I don't even have an ASE certification. I do make an honest living at it come to think of it. I work as a diesel mechanic part time to help make ends meet while my wife is laid up with injuries from a car accident. Hell, I've even worked parts counters. I don't mind being questioned, I will gladly share the knowledge. What I take acception to is when an asshat on an internet forum feels the need to question something and then throws in thier half-asses, nitwit, appraisal laced with attitude and cockeyness all the while trying to school me. I may not know everything and I know I don't but there are a few things that many people who know me consider me an expert on and I'll be damned if some whiney little cry-baby on an Internet forum is going try and make an **** out of me when I'm talking about it.

exalted512

isnt the 2 in NO2 a subscript and not exponential? One atom of nitrogen, 2 atoms of oxygen. Hopefully I'm right so I can feel like i contributed something to this thread:D
-Cody

faster100

John you are a nut!! I'm not even reading that cluster of a rant.. Ive been working and toying with cars for years.. I'm pretty sure i'm older then you and aside from that.. The NOS reference was just that, a reference... kind of an example.. your stupid lightning wont blow up without the supercharger period!!


Oh my god, I just skimmed through that mess (still can't bear to try and read that one huge paragraph) you know nothing about what i know about motors and cars/trucks!! I only questioned your comment about your motor tearing itself apart without the blower... and you went **** wall on a rant as you always do trying to degrade me and make yourself look like a asshat, I have about 6 GOOD friends all with bad **** cars and about 50 people that we used to go out street racing for years with until the crack down.. we call it squeeze or spray, NOT ( I'm running NO2) :rolleyes: I myself have had about 20 cars all old, all worked on myself and with my friends, 4 nova's, 1 camaro, a monza and a truck and many others.. NOT a mass marketed FORD lightning... pleazzze John.. you are so far off base with your rant it's sickening, and you ask why nobody talked to you at polkfest.. someone tries your word and you write what would be about 10 paragraphs if you knew how to write of pure rant!!

get a life and learn some more at pepboys!!

neomagus00

wow, that went downhill quickly...

jstas wrote:

As far as how necessary it is on my truck, well, since compression tops out at a "lofty" 8.2:1, the engine would not be able to run properly without the 8 psi or boost to raise the effective compression ratio up to about 10:1. Running without the supercharger, the engine will ping like crazy and tear itself apart unless the computer dials back ignition timing and makes the fuel/air mixture super rich.

translation: "my engine will detonate and move into limp-home mode if there is less boost available"

but how much boost do you get at 1000 rpm? if you get 8 psi at 6k, you have a damn fine supercharger if you get anywhere near that at idle, and i'm assuming you do idle on occasion, without 'blowing your engine'... and you mentioned the ecu... i specifically tried to come up with cases that didn't involve the ecu, because as you mentioned, any decent ecu will read the real amount of air coming in and put in the right amount of fuel, adjusting timing and so on by the various sensor inputs... so the question that i still have, if you deign to answer it, is, "why can't your ecu handle less air?"...

faster100

exactly!! Ford didn't design a motor that couldn't tune down for idle, around town drivieng... and if you think that truck runs anywhere near full boost at 30 mph your are having lightning pipe dreams.. all the lightnings ive seen at the track were slow as ****.

PoweredByDodge

i'm in the middle of a paper that is due in 2 hours so i'll be brief and respond in full later...

.... john, i haven't done the math yet - probably never will... but i figure at 90 mph i oughta be doing around 3,500 - 4,000 rpms. i wouldn't want to run the motor any higher than that for a long period of time (such as highway driving or what not), so thats why i figure a "top highway speed" of 90 or so. i imagine if i dragged it, and was only "temporarily" getting that high, i could probably get into the 110's or more.

... and 'faster100' - dude... every lightning i ever saw was quick as hell. as much as i'm a mopar nut, i still think the srt-ram is a "copycat" of the lightning (the whole idea of a high power sport truck that is, not the actual designs - two different animals). There were two fords that would ever be allowed a home in my driveway... a Mustang Mach One with a stick shift (the 2003 model), and a second generation Lightning.

... as far as full boost - what are you defining as full boost? 40 pounds? or 5 pounds, or what ?? I doubt they're throwing 30 or 40 pounds through there without blowing the top end right off the block - you're only going to see that on heavy diesels and wicked race motors, but I don't doubt that there's 4 - 6 pounds of boost even during "city driving".

Jstas

Ugh, you both know nothing about engine management and very little about superchargers.

My supercharger makes about 10 pounds of boost at 6,000 RPM. Shame the engine won't run that fast though, huh? It only hits about 5200 RPM and cuts out boost at 8 psi through the wastegate at around 4500 RPM. At 1,000 RPM, the supercharger is pushing 2 pounds of boost and at idle it is on vaccum. However, that has nothing to do with what either of you are trying to say. Just because the engine will idle without drawing boost doesn't mean that it will run well or even at all without the supercharger. idling uses less than 10% of total fuel system capacity and in most cars, the values is actually close to 2-5% of total fuel system volume. ANY engine can run like that.

Also, I never said that "any decent ecu" will do anything. A speed density ECU is a decent ECU and it will not do half of what you are stating any decent ECU will do. As far as your question, I did answer it. You don't understand the answer. I will make it simple. The ECU does use air. It uses electrons.

It is not the ECU that can't handle less air, it is the engine itself. The ECU tries to compensate for poor environmental conditions and still match the optimum A/F ratio. If it cannot resolve that optimum A/F ratio, it determines that there must be a problem, turns on the check engine light and cuts power.




Lastly faster100, you are a jackass, through and through. I can get the truck running at 30 MPH in 1st gear and be pushing full boost without a problem. Boost has nothing to do with speed you moron. I've said it already, it has to do with engine RPM. Your transmission is designed so that you can utilize your engine's power band for better, more efficient acceleration. The overall speed of teh vehicle has nothing to do with how much pressure is being put out by your supercharger/turbocharger.

As far as your comment about learning more at Pep Boys, go **** yourself. Your "experience" is lackluster at best and it is obvious that you have not a clue about what you are talking about. I can run down the laundry list of vehicles I have owned and built myself. I can list a bunch of friends with hot cars too. However, one thing none of the people I associate with do is street racing. Only idiots street race. However, I don't need to potificate on all the stuff I might know through association. Go look up anything I have written and tell me if I am wrong.

faster100

blaH BLAH blah bl freakin ah!! keep digging a hole assstas A poster asked me to edit my original post so i spared your drama and edited out some stuff.. Far as street racing mister text book answers, no one would let ya run that slow **** rustang wanna be anyways..


Next!

neomagus00

::sigh::... i give up... can we close this thread or something? sorry, pbd, that i trainwrecked what was supposed to be a happy story...

Jstas

faster100 wrote:

blaH BLAH blah bl freakin ah!! keep digging a hole assstas A poster asked me to edit my original post so i spared your drama and edited out some stuff.. Far as street racing mister text book answers, no one would let ya run that slow **** rustang wanna be anyways..


Next!

You've yet to post anything factual or debunk anything I have written. Instead of offering anything constructive, you do nothing but try to instigate a flame war with your childish, moronic ramblings and insults. You have only served to discredit yourself. Have fun living in blissful ignorance.



neo, you didn't derail anything. I apologize if I came off too harshly in response to your honest questions. You didn't do anything and again, I apologize if I was over-bearing or too harsh. All I was initially trying to do was give Vinnie a hard time. We have spoken quite a few times about his truck and all the problems he has had with it. He was supposed to be at PolkFest and didn't make it because of the truck having problems. vinnie just didn't respond in time before people started asking questions concerning my tongue-in-cheek remarks towards Vinnie.

faster100

Call ford and see what they say numbnuts!! know it all.. :rolleyes: why people don't like you here,

Jstas

The information I have came from an SVT certified tech at the dealer that sponsors the SVTOA chapter that I belong to. I don't have to call Ford, I already know what they said and if you read my posts instead of crying like a little ****, you would know what they said too. That information was also corroborated by a tuner that works with Lightnings and Cobras and reprograms the ECMs all day long on his DynoJet dynomometer.

Why don't you come up with some facts already and stop playing the hurt little kid? I could understand all this whining and crying if it was something a bit more abstract like child raising or the best way to catch a fish or something but this topic is quite concrete. The info is out there. All you have to do to get one over on me is to look it up. If you are correct, you get to be the cool guy again. If you are wrong, you will just look like the **** that you are. That's all you gotta do. You have a 50/50 chance. Those odds are pretty good. Why not take the chance?

Hell, I'll tell you what. If you go look it up and I turn out to be correct you don't even have to post saying so. You can just lose the little **** act and go on about your business and we will never speak of this again.

faster100

John why does a skinny little jersey loud mouth have to puff his chest up so damm much!! I originally just said your motor wouldn't blow up if the SC were removed.. you turned it into john's tough guy **** thread!! you turned it into name calling 101 (first might i add) I don't have to prove or call ford cause i don't give a eff about **** bag ford trucks that are slow.. I stated one comment, never said i knew everything or even anything about your truck... I said the motor will lean back, **** time and run ok without the SC... So if ya wanna act like a **** and call me names and try to play the tough guy and try and spin it on me... GO ahead.. your a punk who thinks his word is the be all end all.. and i'm just sitting here laughing

and i'm playing the hurt little kid? Id say yeah if i cared and had my feelings hurt, But your the one who took offense over your precious lightning


keep it coming john,

jdhdiggs

Valium, we need some valium here, is there a doctor in the house?

Jstas

OK, so at first you care enough to tell me I am full of it and then give "proof" that is completely irrelevant to the point. On top of that, you are cocky and arrogant about it and continue to further show your ignorance concerning top speed and gearing.

Then you change your story and tell me that I don't know what I am talking about. you offer no solid proof whatsoever that I am wrong, only your own uninformed opinion which you try to establish credibility through association by proxy because you have a few buddies with "bad ****" cars and you used to street race. Yet you have yet to demonstrate this knowledge level and resort to telling me that you refuse to read my post and try to debunk what I wrote through personal attacks, not necessarily name calling.

Then you changed your story again. You decided that it was best to try and destroy my character and credibility through insults and claims about the performance of the truck. You also try to use the "you merely own x-brand of vehicle and that means you don't have the knowledge because you don't work on x-brand vehicle" card. That, in itself is inaccurate because I know many people who know cars inside and out but they don't fix them. They pay someone else to do it because they have the means to do so. That suits them. Does it make them any less of an expert? Nope, it doesn't. No experience turning a wrench does not equate to ignorance on the subject.

Then you change your tune again and now you say that it doesn't matter to you. then again, if it didn't matter to you, would you have posted so many times? Would you have tried to desperatly to disprove the one guy that people like even less than you? You care. You keep posting, you keep trying to defend your stance with nothing of substance and ignorance. You care much more than you are letting on.

So I'll say again, show some proof.

faster100

It doesnt matter to me enough to "prove" it to you... I simply said it wouldnt blow up.. end of story.

I never changed anything, "my story" as you say :rolleyes:

It simply doesn't matter to get all tiffed about it, Fine your truck is bad **** and it has a SC WOW!! you wouldnt take the damm blower off anyways.. so **** it, you win...

call me some more names and try and spin it john, spin baby spin **sigh**

I'm done, sorry for the derail PBD... rant to someone else, I'm tired of it :rolleyes:

audiobliss

Wow. There is a ton of information in this thread.

:eek: