A/R Receiver for Upgraded System

rstaveley

After a long wait, I am in the process of upgrading my home theatre/sound system, beginning with sound and Polk LSi9's, LSiC and PSW 505. I'd like some input on a few related decisions:

(1) A/V receiver: Movies, sports, televisions and music are all important. We are more concerned about quality sound at lower volumes than blasting volume or generating excess bass, although loud once in a while will be nice.

Leaning towards waiting for release of Denon AVR-4306 to see what it is all about before deciding, but also considering Pioneer Elite VSX-74TXVi and HK 7300, as well as Denon AVR-3806 or even 3805, given price. I know that SD 480i on an HDTV looks poor on an HD plasma, and am hoping to find a receiver to help with solid upconversion, as I use TiVo and do not plan to upgrade to HD TiVo until a next generation is developed. If the 4306 looks like it might do it, I will spend the extra $$$, otherwise, I won't.

I have not yet educated myself on bi-wiring or bi-amping, but am interested in using a zone in the Denon receiver to bi-amp the LSi9's. Can I? Should I?

(2) Rear speakers for 5.1 configuration above. Can't go with LSiFx's as I do not have space for them. Leaning towards LC60i's or LC80i's. The (family) room is about 20 x 20 with 10 foot celings and an open floor plan that flows into the kitchen and living room. I have existing JBL's in the ceiling to replace.

(3) Dining room: speaker placement - wall or ceiling; concerned about mellow sound for dinner. Speaker suggestions?

Any thoughts or suggestions would be appreciated.

cfrizz

Welcome.

It sounds like you are going to have a nice system. However if you are going with LSIs you will need to buy a 5 channel amp to plug into your Denon, since it will have to work too hard all by itself to power all those LSI's.

Outlaw Audio has good amps, as does, Parasound, Rotel, ect.

Do a search on LSI's & recievers for more info.

aaharvel

if you're not looking to have loud volumes all the time but low to moderate volumes- that Denon 4series should be fine; as long as all the speakers are set to small and no less than 80hz serving as the crossover point. The H/K 7300 has more high current and would prob. drive those speakers better than the denon and especially the pioneer elite.

You could always check out the lsi7's. Imo they sound just as good as the 9's at low to moderate volumes and they run closer to 6ohms. This would benefit that Denon.

Welcome to the forums!

amulford

Sunfire. If you want to spend a little more, it'll be worth it. The reciever will put out 400 WPC at 4 Ohms...

billbillw

I don't know if I would recommend the PS505. In that price range, the low end offerings from HSU Research, SVS, and Outlaw Audio would all give you more bang for the buck.

rstaveley

Thanks for all the input. I have to admit, I feel quite uneducated about the technologies today. I started the upgrade decisions with the speakers and decided on the Polk LSi9's based on sound, aesthetics, build quality and reputation. I figured I could decide on the other pieces once I knew the speakers, but didn't realize how much more homework I had to do to ensure these speakers sound their best. There is a lot of helpful (albeit sometimes contradictory) information in forums like this one.

In terms of adding an amp, I am concerned about the cost, complxity and (most of all) space it will take. Does anyone have any thoughts a reasonably-sized or slim amp that will power the Polk's appropriately, given a Denon 3806 or 4306 receiver? I have run across Outlaw 7125, Parasound 5125 and Rotel digital amp RMD-1077, all of which should fit in the space I have available. I need to do some research to better understand the differences between them, how they integrate into my system, and what they will do for me. Any direction would be appreciated.

I expect I will buy a receiver first, try it without an amp, and then decide if I need more muscle. Sound reasonable?

Tritonman

rstaveley wrote:

I expect I will buy a receiver first, try it without an amp, and then decide if I need more muscle. Sound reasonable?

Good safe way to go.

However in a room as large as your with open floor plan and high ceilings..i suspect you will need more power.

As far as your kitchen is concerned with ambience music..i suggest in-wall ceiling speakers. They can be had for cheap and they dont need to be all fancy based on what you are saying.

reeltrouble1

The new Polk in walls sound fantantic, perfect for a Dining Room!!!!

You need a receiver with extra zones, Rotel, B&K, Outlaw, Sunfire have some fine receivers but nothing like seperates. For a slim amp, you should look at the Outlaw Mono Blocks they are like 3.5 inches tall or so, very nimble for any rack system and lots of power.

RT1

aaharvel

With a full set of FOUR lsi9's and 1 LSIC you're going to need not tons but alot of power and high current that a Denon is simply not going to give you into 4ohms without going into protect mode. If space is a concern- I say skip the separates option all together and put your money towards a higher-end receiver with pre-outs that give the performance of or approaching separates.

these would do the trick:

NAD t763 (6.1) ($1,400 approx.)
NAD t773 (7.1) $1,800 approx.)
http://www.avrev.com/equip/nadt773/

B&K avr505/507 (5ch/7ch $7,000/$8,000 MSRP)
http://www.audioenz.co.nz/2004/b&k_avr505.shtml

Sunfire Ultimate II (7ch $4,500 MSRP)
http://ultimateavmag.com/avreceivers/705sunfire/

Outlaw Model 1070 ($900)
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_12_3/outlaw-1070-receiver-9-2005-part-1.html

Harman Kardon avr-7300 ($1,400 MSRP)
http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/article.asp?section_id=3&article_id=699&page_number=1

Although the Outlaw and H/K don't have 4ohm stats- with all speakers set to small (using a sub) and set at moderate volume levels they should have no trouble in driving an lsi setup.

If it were my money- I would buy either of the NAD models, depending on if you're driving either a 5.1 or 7.1 speaker setup.



I would never drive a Denon, Onkyo, Marantz, Yamaha, or the like with an ALL Lsi setup. They simply don't offer enough current in their amp stages to provide a decent signal imo.

trees

ah is on target. I've got the t773 running my LSis and more clean power than I'd ever use. Friends have the t763 and it seem like it has lots of juice. As I remember, the reviews on the 773 were better.

Both avrs have a very slight hum to them. It can't be heard from the listening position, but if you are a perfectionist. . .

Other folks with the 763 that I know pick up radio station KRKT in Corvallis, Oregon everytime they turn on the receiver. Too bad they don't like country music.

SCompRacer

rstaveley wrote:

I have not yet educated myself on bi-wiring or bi-amping, but am interested in using a zone in the Denon receiver to bi-amp the LSi9's. Can I? Should I?

I've got an in wall 5.1 surround with LC256i's for R & L front (think LSi9's), LC65i center and LC60i's for rears (think LSi7's) and a pair of LSi7's to make it a 7.1 system. I drive them with a Denon 3805. It does an great job, but a 200 WPC amp on the R & L front does make an improvement in the low range. With more LSi9's in the mix, that receiver could struggle some.

I tried the bi-amping thing with the 3805 and got some audible noise (hiss) from the speakers. I've read various accounts that the amount of noise varies. Or some folks are more tolerant of it. I dislike noise of any form that shouldn't be there so I wouldn't go there again. You could try it and hear what happens.

reeltrouble1

RS,

The Denon or any comparable receiver will drive your lsi speakers, when we talk about power, struggling, etc. what we really mean is the receiver will begin to distort or "clip" the frequency wave as you turn up the volume before it has reached its full amplitude within the analog wave. Go to far and you will hard clip and can ruin your gear and speakers, a receiver doing this will heat up very quickly and likely go into protect mode to save itself from certain critical failure. Should the protect mode not work the receiver fries itself in heat while the speaker driver has a sort of heart attack driving itself back to the basket heating up and then it dies. 4 ohm speakers allow call for more current flow which is where the heat problem with the receiver begins.

If you play at very low levels you would not notice, however, doing this, well, for most of us just plan sucks. The nasty little secret about receivers is that most do not actually output the RMS Wattage stated with all channels driven.

RT1

aaharvel

excellent analogy Reeltrouble1.

rstaveley

One thing I neglected to mention in my original post is that I actually have three zones: 5.1 in family room, (tube) tv and stereo speakers on patio, with plans to add speakers in the dining room as the third zone. It is highly unlikely all three zones will be used at the same time, but I hope to use the receiver as a true A/V "hub" for both the family room and patio.

My attraction to the Denon 4306 was based on the 3 zones, as well as (advertised) analog to HDMI upconversion, which may be important to make the best of my (non-HD) TiVo to HD connection, when I get the plasma. None of the receivers with the power required to drive an Lsi setup offer some of these features - a trade-off for the power to drive the Lsi's, I assume.

I have cancelled by Lsi order for now to (i) go back to the store to hear the Lsi9 again vs. the RTi6 and (ii) wait for the Denon 4306 to be released/reviewed and/or other receiver releases. I am really not sure any of the video upconversion features will help me. My little Denon 1905 (picked up cheap to replace my broken old Sony for now) does a great job of upconverting S-video to Component on my tube tv (I can see difference vs. S-video direct to TV), but a non-HD TiVo (S-Video into A/V receiver) may still look terrible on an HD plasma regardless of how it is converted.

I believe a Denon 4-series receiver should work well with the RTi's - please correct me if I am wrong. Alternatively, if I decide I really want the Lsi's (as I think I will), I will need to figure out how valuable the Denon upconversion and 3 zone features are to me, and how to supplement it with an amp or replace it with some other receiver. I am interested in learning more about digital amps, such as the Rotel 1077.

Although we typically listen to low - moderate volumes, I don't want to feel constrained or that I spent money on something I can't use. I want to be sure I match up power and speakers properly by changing one or the other. Thanks for all the words of wisdom.

aaharvel

The Denon 4806 will sound great with the rti's you're looking at getting.

reeltrouble1

Hmmm.............check out the new Polk in-walls and ceiling speakers, they have a digital amp that comes with them and may solve some of your problem with power, I am no expert at inwall/ceiling speakers but I heard them at Polkfest 05 and they sound, well, effin terriffic. I am quite an old **** not easily impressed by new or gimmick products, these speaks are the real deal. They are LSI quality I believe they they are in the LSI lineup now that I think about it.


RT1

rstaveley

We have 12 foot ceilings in the dining room (room is about 11 x 13), so I was thinking low on the wall instead of ceiling for the speakers. Any thoughts on placements - ceiling or walls - for mellow dinner music, not home theatre/concert-level volumes? (Only concern about walls is speakers getting blocked by future furniture moves or something.)

gregure

Personally, I think for sound quality alone a B&K AVR 505/507 would be the best choice. Call me biased, as I own one, but I've compared B&K to Onkyo, Denon, Marantz, Pioneer Elite and I would take B&K any day. The above post mentioning B&K incredibly overstated the prices. Their receivers retail for $3200 505 and $3500 507. The 507 is capable of second zone control, but has no room for a 3rd zone. If the three zones are your primary concern, I would continue looking at Denon. I have every confidence that the 4806 can drive your LSi system no problem. It drives floor standing Vienna Acoustics 4 Ohm speakers just fine. Anything THX UltraII certified is plenty stable into 4 Ohms. Separates would sound better, as would B&K, but if you want less bulk, less cables, and less cost, a good receiver will make you plenty happy. I've seen some info on the 4306, which is rated at the same power as the 4806, but I would need to hear it to know if it's the same. All their receivers are offering XM built in and HDMI switching, so I can't imagine what they aren't offering in the 4306 to make it $1500 less than the 4806. It seems suspect that they may be overinflating the power ratings, although Denon doesn't tend to do that. All in all, I can say with confidence that the 4806 is a nice strong amp, and would do fine w/ a 4 Ohm system. The 3805/6 would not be a good choice for a 4 Ohm system. It will sound constricted, and you will chance overheating.
Hope that helps.

reeltrouble1

Rs,

The Polk Folks who demoed the in walls for us stated placement within the wall was flexible, something like having the tweet 3-6 ft or so from the floor. They come with a nifty box to install them into. I would call Ken Swauger at Polk and tell him what you want to do and he will give the straight the dope. Polk Customer Service is off the chart fantastic.

RT1

gregure--+1 B&K blows the **** receivers away.

polkatese

I would echo gregure and RT1 on the merit of B&K gears. I have gone from Denon 2802 Recv to Rotel RSX-1065 Recv to B&K Ref50/AV125.7 in the past 4 years, for my LSis. I would have stayed with Rotel had I stick with 5.1

It might not be a fair comparison between Denon 2802 to 4806, but I have tried two Denons on LSi (AVC-3030 and AVR-2802) and found them to be lacking the synergy to LSis, specifically with its analytical and a (rather) dry presentation of music. Not so much of Denon's ability to drive LSis, in my case.

AdilM

I would not go w/ the 4806. It will power the LSi's, but won't bring out their best.
The 4306 + a decent amplifier Parasound 5125 or Sherbourn 7125 will be superior.
I second the "conisder a Velodyne or HSU sub" opinion.
The Polk LSi 9's are the sweet spot. They image very well and have more than enough bass response. Go take a careful listen, b/c the RTi series and the LSi series are pretty different in sound.

You are forgetting a good universal remote, must purchase. $150-350 will make all the complications go away 1-2 button pushes for everything.
The wiring happens once every so often, the remote gets used everyday.
Excellent choices so far. You should PM me.

aaharvel

gregure wrote:

The above post mentioning B&K incredibly overstated the prices.

damn i sure did didn't i.
sorry, i could only find MSRPs.