Any Frequency responce curves for polks RTi line of speakers?

Parson

I'm mostly interested in the CSi5 and RTi12's frequency responce curves since they are the ones I own.

Does anyone know of a review that has measured these values?

BrentMcGhee

You might want to measure them yourself in your own room. It is not that hard to do it can just be kind of time consuming. Plus this way you can see what the response curve of your speakers are when they are reacting with there surroundings (i.e your room)

Parson

yea true, but the main reason is b/c ever since I got into audio I've never totally been happy with my sound. So although I don't plan on upgrading for at least 5-6 year(give or take a sub or move from 5.1-7.1), I am kinda interested in how my system compares to the other options out there.

Basically I'm looking for a way to compare speakers without listening to them, so that I can get an idea of the right direction to look into for when I do eventually upgrade.

So basically an in depth review from a reputable magazine/website who know what their doing and how best to measure system performance would be ideal.
Though if anyone here has there own graphs, I would be interested in seeing them.

My setup,
H/k 7200
RTi12,CSi5,FXi5
Yamaha 1000watt 10" subwoofer

BrentMcGhee

now looking at those graphs when looking at speakers is definatley a step in the right direction but there is so much more to speaker performance than the freq resp graphs. Two speakers with identical graphs could sound very different, ex. bright, warm, punchy, slow etc etc.

You can look at all the tech specs on speakers that you want but it will not be as good as a test as to listining to them for yoursleves.

It is also hard to compare stuff like that becaseu depending on what is driving the speakers or what source is being played through them will greatly effect the response curve.

I know i am not really giving you what you want but i just thought i would put my .02 in. (even though you did not really ask for it )

Well anyway welcome to the forum.

PolkThug

Here's the upper end for ya

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25779&highlight=DVE+frequency

Parson

Polkthug,

That's the kind of aggrevation I'm trying to avoid by doing it myself,

LOL

Though I am thankful for what I can get. Thanks

F1nut

Parson wrote:

yea true, but the main reason is b/c ever since I got into audio I've never totally been happy with my sound. So although I don't plan on upgrading for at least 5-6 year(give or take a sub or move from 5.1-7.1), I am kinda interested in how my system compares to the other options out there.

Basically I'm looking for a way to compare speakers without listening to them, so that I can get an idea of the right direction to look into for when I do eventually upgrade.

My setup,
H/k 7200
RTi12,CSi5,FXi5
Yamaha 1000watt 10" subwoofer

You don't plan to upgrade for 5 to 6 years, yet you're looking to compare speakers without listening to them, WTF??? That's exactly how not to do it.

Parson

True, BUT if I can correlate what I dislike about the sound of my current setup with a frequency graph of my current speakers(RTi12) then I can look for other speakers that APPEAR to not exibit this problem. THEN I can go and listen to those is person to see if I like how they sound.

dorokusai

The actual design, frequency response of a given speaker will ALWAYS vary in a real world application. If you base a purchase on a graph, you should just buy a portable boombox, as you're simply not ready for audio.

I get your idea, but it's not so much graph related as room/ placement related. You should lockdown some variables with what you have currently, before looking at alternatives.

It's typically the user or room that defines a loudspeaker, as the speaker is a given, you're not.

F1nut

Not to mention the associated gear. Maybe it's not the speakers, maybe it's the source or the AVR you currently own, hell could be the cables. Having said that, it's my personal opinion that the RTi12's are bright sounding speakers and don't sound good with music, but do ok for HT. What exactly do you not like about how your system sounds?

Parson

I'm sorry but you all sound alot like the marketing pamphlet for Bose.
"Don't worry about technical specs and scientific measurments, that's all meaningless. Just listen to how it sounds"

And to say that it is the room that defines a loudspeaker is rediculous. Yes room acoustics make a very large impact on the sound. But, I'd rather buy an exceptional speaker with a flat frequency responce, where all drivers are operating within there pistonic frequency range to avoid breakup, and then acoustically treat my room to make them perform at their best, rather than go buy some cheap sony's just so that they can perform at there best level of mediocrity in my acoustically challenged room.

All I'm asking for is technical specs, if polk or you feels that a speaker design that tries to achieve a flat responce is not the way to go, and feels their own signature curve to be more representative of what live music sounds like then fine. I'm sure this is something I'll notice when I go and listen to other speakers that aim for the more traditional "flat responce ideal". And if they feel they need to hide this information to keep competitors from copying them then that's a very valid concern. They should just be upfront about it.

Seriously I love my Polks, I truely believe there right right around or above the best offered by Paradign and B&W. The reason I'm not going to upgrade for 5-6 years is because I know I'm going to need to drop some serious cash to get a better setup, and I'm trying to figure out just what level of cash I'm going to need to plan on spending when that day comes.

Right now I have the h/k7200 which is a powerful beast, yet based of the level of fullness and bass responce I'm getting from my RTi12's I really feel I need to at least double the power I'm feeding to them. The reason I'm looking for frequency charts is to see if this is how there supposed to sound and I should just learn to live with them until I am able to upgrade, or will I really benefit from giving them more power.
Maybe I went to big with my receiver and therefore don't turn it up loud enough for the receiver to be operating at it best. But unless I want to spend alot of time buying and returning equipment to see how they sound I really wont know unless I can get a hold of this information from someone else who has the resources and experience to truely put these speakers thru there paces(i.e. a professional review in magazine or website). and sense I'm having a hard time locating any such thing on the web I came here to ask for help. If you don't know any more than I do just say so rather than attack me.

dorokusai

Parson - I figure since you just insulted me, go F yourself.

Please, feel free to expound on how a speaker should perform as designed in ANY enviroment....it's impossible. If you are a slave to specs, then you shouldn't really bother with audio.

It IS in how it sounds to YOU, or do you have a personal shopper for audio? The point is to not directly lead you if at all possible, guide you perhaps, but let you make the final decision in what YOU hear. How is that wrong, it's practically an ANTI-sales pitch, give me a break.

Parson

I'm sorry if you feel the need to knock the legs out from what someone else is saying rather than making constructive posts.

I would think that someone that spends as much time here as you do would be a little more helpful.

Guess I'll return to avsforum.com with the kiddies.

F1nut

After 36 or so years in this hobby I can tell you specs will not tell you how any given piece of gear will sound. Having said that, speaker companies will tell you the basic info needed to compare to another, but not one of them is going to give out the frequency response curves. For that info, take a look at Stereophile. The reason Bose won't even give out the basic info that other speaker companies do is that they have a lot to be ashamed about.

As for doubling the power, that isn't always the answer either. What you'd be better off trying is a separate pre/pro and power amp because there isn't a AVR made that can perform like decent separates or a first class integrated.

BTW, I am trying to help you.

aaharvel

dorokusai wrote:

Parson - I figure since you just insulted me, go F yourself.

Please, feel free to expound on how a speaker should perform as designed in ANY enviroment....it's impossible. If you are a slave to specs, then you shouldn't really bother with audio.

I LOVE THIS FORUM!!!!! :cool:

Parson

I said I would let my ears be the final judge.

What I'm stating is my lack of experience with the myriad of high end gear out there, that can only be found in exotic botiques.

I love my polks, hell I went throughthe trouble of selling a pair of cambridge T500's($2000 pair speakers) on audiogone last years because I seriously felt after extensive listening that the polks(rti12's) were better.

If I find that I need to buy a $15000 dallor setup just to get better sound than my current $5000 polk setup then I'll just keep my speakers for 20years or until they died like my last pair before I bought the cambridges. But to help me find out if this was true I came here for help, not an argument.

aaharvel

Parson, first- welcome to the jungle. Second- it's not healthy to give yourself toxic doses of buyers remorse. You have very nice speakers, nicer speakers than many of us on these forums myself included. Enjoy them.

Parson

I apologize, I also contributed to this getting out of hand.

And for the record I will of course continue to come here to read in the future.

I realize that my posts could have seemed a little antagoistic in there phrasing. I guess the perfectionist in me was mabye a little angry that I wan unable to find out every little last bit of info on the speakers I really do love alot more than is healthy.

I just got that audio bug that prevents me from ever being happy I think.

honestly no hard feelings, I really do appreciate the effort of you and others trying to help me even if it's not what I wanted to here.

Parson

VR3

Frequency graphs don't mean anything. I mean really...

I bet outdoor Jensen speakers can hit to 20khz... and I bet if you position it right and EQ it enough - it can be pretty flat...

A speaker with a horrible graph might sound fantastic...

The founder of Mirage said... (indirectly)... "I first started out trying to design a speaker with a flat response. I achieved that - and it sounded horrible."

A speaker sounds like how you perceive it to sound, a graph cant reveal the skinny details a speaker reveals or hides. Period.

fireshoes

Trey, did you add the (indirectly) thing in there yourself, cause that is funny. Mirage is omnidirectional, and he said it indirectly!

VR3

LOL... it is an indirect quote...

But, your right...haha...

Normanality

Greetings Parsons,

The frequency response graph from a manufacturer taken in a Anechoic Chamber does not reflect the same response you or I will get in our own homes. That's why most higher end dealers allow you to take speakers home to demo them to see if they sound good in your environment.
My LSi 15's have some serious issues in "MY" room, so I have borrowed SComp's meter and Rives cd to take measurements and visualize if it matches what I am hearing. Then I can make changes (add acoustical treatments) to offset what may be occuring in "MY" room that makes it sound differently than what I heard in a more 'flat' listening room.

F1nut

Normanality wrote:

That's why most higher end dealers allow you to take speakers home to demo them to see if they sound good in your environment.

With a credit card deposit.

Parson

A rooms acoustics will modify the sound coming from the speaker, it will not affect what the speaker is producing.

If my room has alot of hard surfaces it will emphasize the higher frequencies more, and I might want to look for speakers that produce a frequency line that slopes downward in the higher frequencies(lower high frequency db's).

If I have an acoustically dead room I would want to listen to speakers that are a little more forward in the upper frequencies(a frequency responce line that curves upward(more db's) in the higher frequencies

same thing for a rooms bass responce etc.

A frequency graph will tell you whether or not a particular pair of speakers emphasizes/deemphasizes certain frquencies which could be used as a guide when selecting speakers for your particular room.

A frequency responce graph tells you more than what frequencies a speaker can reproduce, it tells you how much a particular speaker deviates from the signal that is being suppplied to it. A perfectly straight line(which no speaker does) will produce all frequencies from 20hz-20khz(or 10hz-100khz) at the exact same level(ex 90db). No speaker is perfect, some might put out 85db at 100hz other 95db at 100hz. In these cases both are in error by 5db, though depending on my room I might pick one over the other.

So while an outdoor Jenson may go up to 20khz it's likely to do so in a very irregular way(i.e not accurate).

VR3

Your ignoring my point. (I hate that)...

You can take a whole bunch of speakers with extremely flat, similar responses...

Each with different type of drivers, quality - the works...

They each will sound different in YOUR room.

Why? Although a graph may be a "basis" - its overall a sucky one. Speakers feature different types of materials in the mids and tweets and the crossovers. All of which alter the sound.

So lets say a speaker has a textile dome and a hard aluminum dome - both have a similar graph, but I can almost garuntee you the aluminum will be brighter in your room. Its just a characteristic...

Ok, so lets say you have an aluminum mid and a paper mid - different sounds once again.

Different crossover designs, different slopes, etc - one set of drivers in a given speaker may blend better together and be easier on the ears.

All these things a graph can NOT tell you.

A graph means, pretty much nothing - not in a chamber, not in a room unless you are just trying to flatten out your response.

Tritonman

This is one interesting thread. So I figure I would put my .02 cents in.

Understanding Speaker Frequency Response

http://forum.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/34579/131062.html

And now that you know how to interpret these numbers, you're ready to run right out and buy a speaker just by looking at the response curve, right? I wouldn't recommend it. Despite many advances in technology over the past 20 years, frequency response measurement is an imperfect science. The same speaker measured by two different labs may yield different response graphs. And some companies just plain cheat when they publish response curves. If it looks hand drawn, it probably was

IMO...you are basing a speaker purchase on a manufacturers measured specifications. There is NO law or rule amongst organizations manufacturing speakers requiring them to follow a standard measurement format. So each company can use whatever equipment they want to measure their speaker..any room or environment they want.

I could definately see your point if their was a standard having to be utilizrd by all companies across the board..but unfortunately there is not. So your are essentially taking the "word" of the company selling you their product.

You cannot base your speaker purchase on these curves as they are not streamlined and sanctioned by some Audio Guild.

Either way..good luck on your purchase.

Parson

True a graph will only tell you the level balance of the frequencies a speaker produces, but thats what I want to know.

It will not tell you the sound characteristics or how accuratly it reproduces each individual frequency, each particular type of cone material will breakup in different ways and introduce their own types of errors.

But, I feel that the accuarcy of my polks are fine, couldn't be better, I just find the highs a little forward, the midrange a little recessed and the bass lacking. But what it does produce sound very nice, just out of balance in respect to levels.
If I saw a graph relating frequency to db output, I could tell if the problem was a result of the speakers or is due to my room/equipment. Is the problem too big too overcome with treatments or new gear? Don't know.

The speakers are exceptionally clean sounding, crystal clear. That's why I changed from the cambridges, because you can modify the levels a bit with parametric equilizers and room acoustics, but you can't force a speaker to work better(be more accurate).

Parson

I not saying they sound bad or have bad quality b/c they don't produce a flat responce curve. They in fact sound fantastic in regard to accuarcy/clarity to each respective frequency, I just don't feel the level/volume of each frequecy is they way I like. Thats why I asked for the graph.

I realize some of my earlier post may have seemed a little cloudy on exactly what I exspected to get from the graph. I sorry. Though to say no information can be gotten from the graph is stupid in my opinion.

Normanality

I guess everyone has their own way of saying it.

Whether my LSi's have a flat response curve or not, I've heard them in a decent listening room so I know they are capable of great sound top to bottom.

Now that I've plotted my own room, I can see where I need work.
A +23dB jump between 40-60Hz and -20dB drop from 100-200Hz are problems.
Now I can get busy.

VR3

The problem with receiving a response graph from a company or someone else is almost useless...

Now, if you took test tones and a SPL meter or a RTA of sorts and measured your speakers in YOUR room... then, yes - a graph can hold some SUBSTANTIALLY helpful data...data that can take your system miles up the road...

You need to graph your system...not another graph...

Thats the only way you will find this problem...

Someone may have a null in their room at 100hz, you may have a spike... the manufacture may be flat from 20khz to 80hz...you may have dips and peaks and all that... you need to measure YOUR system.

Parson

But you must admit that different speaker brands produce each frequency at a differnet levels, and this causes each brand to have it's own particular flavor(forward,recessedetc) Though both may be just as accurate in other regards.

A hard room may make a relaxed speaker sound bright, and a bright speaker even brighter. But knowing where your starting, is always usefull.