DVD-A vs. SACD? Who freaking cares anymore! (Warning: Serious Rant)

aaharvel

nice feedback Jimmy. and welcome to the forums.

madmax

heiney9 wrote:

You summed it up in one easy to comprehend sentence. I would take a high end redbook set-up over an average level SACD or DVD-A system any day. That's what I've been trying to say only I used about thousand more words...and still wasn't as eloquent as you MM :cool:

H9

I must have been wrong...

madmax

reeltrouble1

danger boy wrote:

I find like others..that Redbook still reigns supreme.

No way its supreme in sound, it cant be. If your interested in the number of titles available at price points might as well say MP-3 reigns.

edit--Vinyl is the only format with the potential to exceed SACD.

shack

ND13 wrote:

Never knew you could do sacd on 2 channel. Is there a setting for that on the player?

Or would I just hook up the L & R channels only??

Like others have said, you can just hook up the L and R channels, but you have to select the SACD layer you want the CDP to play (if there are options - as stated - some SACDs are stereo only). Fortunately my CDP defaults to 2 channel and I have to select Multi Channel.

reeltrouble1

My Denon will dowmix if you only hook up two cables, my Pioneer you have to set the default in the menu.

RT1

ND13

Well ,I thought that I was going to be getting a universal player next week, but that has been nixed by the seller. So I guess that it'll have to wait til I can afford to get a new one or one comes up for sale in the FM or maybe someone will have one at PFest to sell or trade.

madmax

reeltrouble1 wrote:

edit--Vinyl is the only format with the potential to exceed SACD.

If mixed right, pressed right, maintained properly, played on proper equipment, synergy, correct settings etc.

Although bass is often lighter on vinyl it is usually correct. I have often thought bass may be slightly heavier on SACD (in general) than real life?? CD's and LP's are fairly close to each other concerning bass. Anyone else think this?

madmax

aaharvel

speaking of screwed up studio mastering- no wonder there's so much confusion with the "hi-rez" formats. Not only is there not a standard over format- but there seems to not even be a standard in mastering. I see DVD-A discs mixed in 44.1 all the time- and many times the DTS track on the disc is superior!

And being an SACD loyalist- this one hurt the most: the only SACD i've heard that doesn't improve upon the redbook version- and in fact is far inferior when it comes to bass and bass management in the muZic.

http://www.stereophile.com/digitalsourcereviews/1104fifth/

edit: Btw, Blue Note Records still hasn't responded to my email about a refund.

heiney9

madmax wrote:

If mixed right, pressed right, maintained properly, played on proper equipment, synergy, correct settings etc.

Although bass is often lighter on vinyl it is usually correct. I have often thought bass may be slightly heavier on SACD (in general) than real life?? CD's and LP's are fairly close to each other concerning bass. Anyone else think this?

madmax

I don't know MM, I understand the appeal of vinyl and it's associated sound. Is there a TT rig that is able to give S/N ratio >100db or Dynamic Range >100db or Channel Seperation >100db ? Let's be reasonable...no $25,000 system here. I'm talking a reasonable amount in $5000 range that most serious audiophiles could afford if they so chose to do so. As far as vinyl goes this has always been the limiting factor for me...it maybe more of mental, can't get past it, type of thing. Don't get me wrong I've had the chance to audition some very nice TT rig's, although long ago. Vinyl certainly has appeal well beyond published specs. It's just these 3 areas where I've thought the CD format was the hands down winner and part of why CD format appeals to me.

Both vinyl and CD have there own assoicated upside and downside.

H9

Danny Tse

This is probably the best price you can get for a name brand universal player....$60.00 shipped for a Toshiba SD-4960.

http://www.hhgregg.com/ProductDetail.asp?SID=6B677715BAA34BD785DEF64439C24277&ProductID=11750

It's a "true DSD" player, one that doesn't do a DSD >>> PCM conversion for SACD. Unlike the Pioneer models....or the mega-buck players from Accuphase. And you can mod the heck out of the Toshiba for improved sound quality.....

http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/viewtopic.php?t=12613

I think I will get this so that I can hear Elvis in hi-rez (on DVD-A)

reeltrouble1

madmax wrote:

If mixed right, pressed right, maintained properly, played on proper equipment, synergy, correct settings etc.

madmax

Thats why I said it has the potential to be better, I agree with your assesment on SACD and bass though. Also, it just seems so logical to me that the TT is playing the original recorded wave form not trying to recreate it through samples/qauntization levels. Of course the recording has got to be there to begin with but thats true for all medium is it not? I just dont have the coin to drop on a TT system that will even get close to my SACD players/systems.

RT1

ND13

Danny,

Thanks for the heads up on the Tosh. Looks like a good one to start with, and if I don't like sacd, then I'm only out $60 and still have a decent dvd player.

madmax

reeltrouble1 wrote:

Also, it just seems so logical to me that the TT is playing the original recorded wave form not trying to recreate it through samples/qauntization levels.
RT1

Not really. Yes it plays what was recorded but look at what was done before recording it. Once the master tape is mixed it is "adjusted" before being put on vinyl. For example: Highs are cut below a certain level to eliminate the esses. Also, they adjust the bass loudness depending upon how long the performance lasts vs how many sides. More bass equals more groove space. Of course the whole RIAA curve thing too. I'm surprised you have any sound left by the time all is done. :eek:

H9, $5K buys quite a nice audiophile class starter setup. If you buy used you can hit the mid-line stuff like I have for that amount of coin. (Plus the nickel for the tone arm of course).

madmax

heiney9

Danny Tse wrote:

This is probably the best price you can get for a name brand universal player....$60.00 shipped for a Toshiba SD-4960.

I think I will get this so that I can hear Elvis in hi-rez (on DVD-A)

I mean absolutely no disrespect to current or future owners of this Tosh....but now who's comparing apples to oranges. No way anyone will convinve me a $60 SACD player is going to better a quality redbook player. Sorry not going to happen. Noel, I bet you AMC Cdb-8 would run circles around this Tosh, SACD or not. Start with atleast a quality "base" player to do some comparison's.

I have a friend with a Sony universal player, I forget the model but he probably paid $300-400 retail for it. I had him bring it over to compare to my set-up of the Nak running thru the Adcom Dac. The only thing that we weren't able to do is compare the same version of disc on SACD and redbook. But I will tell you every SACD he put in didn't really impress me maybe not because of the cd itself but maybe becasue of the cd player itself. My redbook system consistently bettered it. And there was absolutely no competiton redbook to redbook. So maybe if you get an equally high end SACD player and have a recording that isn't botched maybe you could hear differences, dunno

I will still choose a transport w/a seperate DAC everytime. The benefits are too great to give up. I haven't even ventured into the area of upsampling yet.

H9

madmax

Sony product, universal player, $300. What can I say. I'm sure any of the Toshibas I modified would put it in its place...
madmax

fredv

Shouldn't read this forum at work, but it is lunch time..... the plastic has $60 less limit now. Danny, thanks for the Toshiba ref!!!

aaharvel

Sony universals are very underrated imo. My 5disc changer was $250 2years ago- even less n0w and it's an excellent performer for both progressive DVD and SACD (minus the fixed 100hz for bass management in it's 5.1 analog jacks). Redbook performance is a little less so I'm afraid, which is why i bought a vintage model ES single transport. But regardless the universal SOnys have excellent performance.

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/article.asp?section_id=3&article_id=632&page_number=2

$60 Toshibas that do it all? It's a bargain. $60.

STill- good luck trying to find SACD's and DVD-A's from artists you like.

ND13

My Tosh that I use in the living room, which isn't even hooked up right now(had to swipe the components), is hdcd capable. I know that hdcd isn't multi-channel, and I frankly don't care if it or the sacd player is or not, but how does hdcd and sacd compare in hi-rez music playback on a two-channel only rig?

BTW it's a sd2200 2 disc, with DD decoder built in, which I don't utilize either.

Danny Tse

ND13 wrote:

My Tosh that I use in the living room, which isn't even hooked up right now(had to swipe the components), is hdcd capable. I know that hdcd isn't multi-channel, and I frankly don't care if it or the sacd player is or not, but how does hdcd and sacd compare in hi-rez music playback on a two-channel only rig?

BTW it's a sd2200 2 disc, with DD decoder built in, which I don't utilize either.

ND13,

Can't help you on the comparison between HDCD and SACD since I've never owned a HDCD-capable player. Just want to let you know that some of the hybrid SACDs out there contain a HDCD-encoded CD layers....such as those on Dire Strait's "Brothers In Arms", Vince Gill's "High Lonesome Sound", Lee Ann Womack's "Greatest Hits", etc. These discs, nor their packaging, display the HDCD logo. Kind of an "easter egg"-type deal. Others display the HDCD logo on both the disc and the packaging....

ND13

I guess I'll just wait it out til PFest and corner some hi-rez guru for that answer, huh? Thanks, though, :cool:

VR3

HDCD is 20 bit...

SACD, DVDA is 24 bit.

http://www.hitbutiken.com/hdcd/index.php

aaharvel

i thought DSD was 1-bit.
Beats the hell outta me.

ND13

Super hdcd, never heard of that

aaharvel

don't some receivers decode HDCD? I think H/K's do- but can't be sure. If that's the case- then using a digital out on a cd player should get the job done.

heiney9

Noel, add Jewel's Spirit to the HDCD list. My Dac decodes HDCD discs. It's a nice feature, but I woulnd't go out of my way to aquire HDCD compatibility. I do hear a very slight difference, possibly a bit more open...who knows if it just isn't mind tricks. Again it's a nice feature to play around with, but totally not worth the effort to seek out a decoder and then the software to go with it. It seems there are many HDCD compatible titles out there that aren't labeled as such.

Here's one linky:

http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowsmedia/forpros/hdcd/hdcdabout.aspx

Here's another one that goes into way more detail:

http://www.cinenow.com/pdf/hdcd_ic_bro8_us.pdf

H9

ND13

I'll be playing it through tubes, not my HK. I'll have to hear this, I guess, before I spend the $$$.

I already have a Tosh SD2200 that is hdcd capable, I guess I'll hook it up to my Dodd and put on the Van Halen cd I have that has the HDCD label on the back.

HEADING HOME, BE BACK IN AN HOUR OR SO. sorry, didn't mean to scream

heiney9

It's from a foreign site but it lists all HDCD titles

http://www.hitbutiken.com/hdcd/index.php?p=base

Danny Tse

There used to be a list of titles encoded with HDCD at HDCD.com, but not even that list was complete. That list is no longer available. However, there's also an alternative HDCD titles list at head-fi.org that identifies unmarked HDCD-encoded CDs....

http://www6.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?t=67082&highlight=hdcd

Danny Tse

You always wanted a Mobile Fidelity CD? How about a Mobile Fidelity hybrid SACD? How about $14.97 for the new hybrid SACD of Earth Wind & Fire's "That's The Way of the World" (30th Anniversary Audiophile Limited Edition) from Mobile Fidelity?

http://www.deepdiscountcd.com/index.cfm?request=cd.cfm?upc=821797201667