upgrading from rti to lsi - lots of questions

sickicw

Well I just went to tweeter and demoed some lsi9s and they sound pretty good. I can tell they have a lot of potential. Oh yea, and they are the best looking speaks I’ve ever seen. Much better looking in person than in online pics. Given that a relative might buy my entire rti home theater, I’m starting to think about piecing together an lsi home theater system. I’m planning on starting with the fronts (lsi9) and center and enough power for all three, then eventually (when I get some more money) add the surround sound speakers and another amp. I mostly listen to rock, punk, and country, and was thinking about using niles for the amplification, but before I go out and spend all my money I was wondering if any of you guys could answer some questions.


1) What is the appropriate power for lsi speakers rated at 200 watts into 4 ohms? Will putting more than 200 watts into these speakers make them sound any better at lower volumes (I rarely listen to anything really loud, and am looking for more bass and dynamics at low to mid volumes)? Also would it hurt the speaker if it has too much power?
2) If I by-amp (or by-channel) lsi9 (4 ohm) speakers, does that mean that in effect I am driving two 2 ohm loads? Is so, I don’t think my amp can handle that.
3) Any advise on a good amp? I like the look of the niles amps from crutchfield (black and simple, not rack mountable) and actually bought one for my rti system. Sounds pretty good to me, but I’m always open for other suggestions. Im looking at buying one amp for the fronts (3x 200watts at 4 ohms) and another later for my rears (2 x 200 watts at 4 ohms). Id like them to be the same brand and look decent.
4)I recently bought an onkyo 7.1 100 watt receiver with pre outs ($700) from circuit city. It’s still under 30 days since I bought it, so I can return it if I have too. Since I have pretty much decided to go separates with lsi, does anyone have any suggestions on a separate pre amp that is not too expensive (under $1000). Also it should look good (black), and have a decent remote control. Also should have 7.1 dd and tds, along with lots of features for speaker crossover and bass management (my onkyo is a bit lacking on bass management).
5) Do pre amps really sound that much better than a receiver with pre outs?
6) Any one want to give me any other advise on my situation?

okiepolkie

Welcome to the forum.

I'll give a few of these questions a shot.

1. If you can afford more power, do it. The LSi's sound great with a lot of good, clean power. It is more likely that you will damage speakers with too little wattage than giving them too much. Distortion kills speakers, not clean power.

2. Not exactly sure of your question, but no you would not be driving two 2 ohm loads. bi-amping means that you would use separate amplifiers for the tweeters and drivers. I'm guessing at that point, each of the amplifiers would see either a 4,6, or 8 ohm load. Bi-wiring means that you use the same amplifier and run two separate strands of speaker wire from the amp to the speakers(one set to the tweeters, one to the woofers). This method will still let the amp see the original 4 ohm load the LSi's present.

3. The amp is going to depend on your price range. If you get a good pre-amp for a decent price, then you can spend more on the amplifier.

4. Take the Onkyo back to CC if you are going to go with LSi's. My suggestion would be to look at a used Outlaw Audio 950 pre-amp. These can be had for around $500 on ebay or audiogon. If you have to have a new one, try the Outlaw 990 pre. It is around $1100, but well worth the money. I would still get the used one though.
Forget about the remote control. Get the used 950 and pick up a Harmony universal remote from someplace like www.pcmall.com. They are very user friendly(good for the WAF) and several of us have them or have at least used them in the past with good experiences. The 880 is great, but the 659 is cheaper and will do most of the same things.

5. It depends on the receiver, but in most cases, the pre-amp will be a better investment.

Hope this helps.

Zach

cfrizz

If your looking at Outlaws 950/990 you should also look into getting the 755 amplifer as well. http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/index.html

Happy shopping & let us know what you end up with!

Oh & welcome to Club Polk!

jdhdiggs

Crap! Hit the back button, here we go, short and sweet:
1). >50W of real power
2). No, each amp will see 4 ohm
3). Look used until your more experienced. Most used items you can sell near what they were bought for. This buys you time and experience
4). Go used for best deals, Outlaw is also very nice for that price range. My suggestions, write down your key features and get your learn on at avsforums.com
5). This is personal preference. Generally dedicated pre's are better but there are exceptions
6). Listen and demo as much as possible. Look used for the best deals and the least $$$$ wasted, Whatever you get first will NOT satisfy you in the long run. Keep a chunk of change available for "stupid" good deals. Nothing is more frustrating then having some item you really want go up for sale and you not having the bread. Relax and enjoy!

cfrizz

Sickicw, there are a couple of Outlaw 950's on sale on Audiogon. Check it out.


http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/srch_fs.pl

aaharvel

1. 2/3
2. no
3. outlaw, adcom, nad
4. outlaw, adcom, nad
5. i don't know

(edit) welcome to the forum amigo.

sickicw

OK, thanks for all the advise. I think im going to go with a used outlaw pre amp and a new outlaw amp. thats again

sickicw

Oh one more question. Does anyone have any suguestions on some speaker wire and interconnects to use? Im using some 16 gauge monster cable for my rti set up, but was wondering if anyone noticed any improvements with some other brands. thanks,

okiepolkie

Monster Cable as a brand is not thought of well here, so most would definetly point you in a differnt direction. There are a multitude of cables available in the "cable exchange" program here on the forum. This gives you an opportunity to try before you buy.

Other than that, I would give www.signalcable.com a try they are well built cables at good prices. I think you still get a 5% discount if you a club polk member.

The outlaw setup is a good choice. Hope you enjoy it.

aaharvel

if you like the 'sound' of your Monster Cables- I wouldn't worry too much about it. Monster makes quality products- but like Bose, their prices and marketing are questionable. I would listen to the wires you have with your newly acquired speakers first.

sickicw

I have been reading the manuals for the outlaw pre amps and it seems that none of them have a build in equalizer. Is it just me, or should a pre amp costing $1000 should at least have a built in eq? Anybody know of another pre amp around $1000 that has a build it eq? Also how many people out there use there eq to set up there speakers?

Thanks

danger boy

i'd be surprised if many in here used a eq in their main listneing rig. with the right components and cables.. an eq is not needed. an eq can discolor the sound too. you are in effect changing the quality of the sound by tweaking the different frequencies, and the signal is passing thru yet another component. my .02

aaharvel

Eq's don't make any sense. At least to me. Imo they're nothing but a tool for OCDs to chase a perfection he/she will never catch. jmo

okiepolkie

Are you talking about the automatic setup(with microphone) that some preamps and receivers have? If so, you will probably receive more accurate results by using a radio shack spl meter and a setup disc like AVIA's Guide to Home Theater . This will help you set crossover levels and speakers levels to help your system become moreequalized .

You have already been given the general consensus on other equalization techniques, and I agree very much. I don't have the luxury to do this, but if there are frequency problems in the room, many will tell you to change the room, not the source of the sound.

Looks like you are on the right track otherwise.

TheReaper

sickicw wrote:

Also how many people out there use there eq to set up there speakers?

I use the digital room equalizers in my receiver (TXSR702, 5 bands per channel, 3 bands on subwoofer). I initially tried the automatic settings using the supplied microphone. But then I started playing with setting them myself in manual mode. Across the front I have RTi70s and a CSi40. I use the equalizers to roll off the highs, and knock some base out. I also use the one on the subwoofer to help flatten the response.

Equalizers tend to be snubbed by the audiophile purists. But economically, it is cheaper to bend the sound of what you have, more to your liking, than to continually swap components and cables. Also, the digital equalizers acting on digital signals, do not deteriorate the sound like analog equalizers do (within limits).

As a negative, it took me 2 months, to finally hit the right spot with the equalizers and the crossover to the subwoofer. Also, don't expect to use equalizers to radically change the sound of your setup, they are best used for tweeking.

sickicw

Thanks everyone for all the input. So i think i decided on the outlaw 990 preamp and 755 amp. The only problem i have with this is that all of my speakers are rated for 200 watts at 4 ohms, and the amp is rated at 300 ohms. The 990 preamp does not have a feature to limit the max volume, so i am wondering if someone (a small kid) accidentally turned up the way, would this damage my speakers?

jdhdiggs

If you ever use all 300W, check you're hearing. You've gone deaf.

For a reference- My Maggies (Horribly ineffiecient speakers) will get uncomfortably loud using 20-25W. I can never imagine using more than that in a more efficient system without causing more damage to your hearing than any component.

okiepolkie

It depends on what is being played, who is "allowed to play it," and so on. I mentioned earlier in this thread, but it bears repeating, Distortion, or clipped signals, are more of a danger than the high wattage.

Imagine it with this comparison(someone please correct me if I'm wrong):
1.You are using a preamp, like the 990, with a 100 watt/channel amp on the LSi speakers. You turn the volume nob to 3:00(absolute no no, but it happens) with music playing. The amplifier probably does not have enough power to reproduce the music accurately and begins to produce a clipped signal.
2. Same preamp and volume setting, but with a 300 watt/channel amp. The more powerful amplifer has more power in the reserves, so it can send more to the speakes without becoming taxed(i.e. no clipped signal).

Yes it will be extremely loud, but it probably won't damage your speakers.

With all that said, it does stink that there is no max volume setting(I know the Rotel receiver I set up does), but overall, I wouldn't worry about it that much. Just make sure you buy the Polk's(or whatever your next speaker purchase is) from an authorized dealer so you can receive the full factory warranty. The warranty does cover goof-ups like this.

It looks to be a nice potential setup so far. I hope you enjoy it.

sickicw

I never plan on turing my volume up very loud, but im sure it might accidentally happen. Also, I find that having a powerfull amp help makes the music a lot more "full" even if you never turn it up very loud. I guess it just has a lot more juice for the more dynamic parts. Anyhoo, I just charged quite a bit to my credit card for the outlaw pre and amp. Gonna hurt money wise for a while, but hopefully it will be worth it. Now i just need to decide if i want to finance the fronts and center or go for the entire 5 speakers on the lsi line. Crutchfield is running a sale on polks this month till the 20th....

okiepolkie

Polk speakers go on sale every few months. It will be a free subwoofer for a while(usually the PSW10) or they will have a 10% off sale.

I personally like the % discount more.

Go for the fronts now and stay as much out of debt as possible. I enjoy the music so much more when I know it is paid for.

sickicw

I just got my lsi speaker in and hooked them up. for some reason they dont sound as good as i remember when i was listening to them in tweeter. Im hopeing this is because they are not broken in yet. how long does it take to break these bad boys in, and does it really make that big of a difference in sound?

McLoki

It takes about 100 hours or so to break in. It makes a big difference. The LSi's sound pretty bad until they get broken in.

Michael

wirebill

Sickicw,
I bought a pair of LSi9’s three weeks ago and they sounded a little too boxy for me and the bass was very boomy. I found that the boxy sound is going away as they are breaking in and that by pulling them away from the walls a bit I got rid of the boomy bass sound. How would you discribe your experience with them?
Bill

nellis8166

sickicw...I am selling my Lsi9's, Lsic and Adcom amp that powers them. I was going to put them in the flea market here this weekend. Might be a good fit for you.

Tequila

The Lsi serie is very complicated for the power, the numbers of woffer, the price, the ohms...oh, dear you should take a moment for the Rti Line, better for music for me...and too much simple.

sickicw

Well i listented to them about 6 hours last night, and at first they also sounded pretty boomy on some songs. After a few hours they seemed to start sounding a little better, with the bass starting to seperate more from the sound. Im planning on running them as much as possible for the next few weeks and see how much better they sound as they are breaking in. All in all though they do sound better than the rtis, although at this point the rti probably have it beat in the bass section. I demoed my rtis with my new amp before hooking up the lsi's and although they did sound pretty good, I think the sound wasnt very nature, especially in peoples voices. the rtis seemed to project too much bass whereas the lsi's almost sound like the person talking is in the room.

Tequila

Well, you are the one for the choice, but I think than the Lsi is better for movies but the Rti is better for ROCK music...that isthe only than I am listening, so...

Good luck

Chewie

I initially tried the LSI's with just the receiver and it was ok for low volume. I just ordered an Outlaw 990 and will post my impressions when it gets here.

You defenitely want a seperate sub to go with the LSI's.