off topic, but i need help...

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ok - i got that whole oiling problem fixed... i'm now pushing about 10 pounds (bounces between 9 and 11) at idle (850 rpm - in drive with wheels jacked off ground) and 35 to 55 at 2000 rpm up to 3,500 rpm.

I'm using 10w40 (ideal is 10w30 - heaviest allowable by factory service manual is 15w45 for a "refreshed" engine).

now i've got about 45 minutes total run time on the engine (never on the road, just with the back wheels jacked up so i can put it in gear without it moving in the yard), and i'm hearing some ticking out of the valvetrain.

any ideas ??

do you guys think it just needs some more run time to fully oil itself (it engine did sit out of the truck completely assembled for about a year before i had gotten the truck itself to a point where i could istall it and the new tranny)?

or could it be something more serious?

ideas ?????

thanks
-vinnie

MacLeod

I cant remember what engine youre rebuilding Vin but Ive notice out of both my 5.2 and 4.7 that they have a slight "tick" when running.

When I first got my 2000 model it did it and I thought I had a faulty valve. I took it back to the dealer and he claimed it was a characteristic noise they made. I even made him go out to the lot and fire up another 5.2 equipped Ram and sure enough it did it too.

Even my 4.7 in my 02 model does it.

Im no mechanic so I could be talking out of my **** here but I wouldnt sweat it unless its just obviously wrong like a rod banging against the head or something.

beardog03

I would let in run for a while (get hot), then shut her off and let it cool all the way down...

If it`s a rebuild, your rings and valves need to seat...
and the lifters need to pump up...


sometimes after sitting a long time , this takes a little while....

is the oil fresh..?

If the oil has been sitting in the crankcase for a long time, I would run it for a while ...let it cool all theway down, then repeat 5 or 6 times....change the oil, and see what happenes when you put a load on it...

Just my .02..

sometimes valves and or lifters get sticky after sitting a long time...

beardog

zgw8

Ever heard of Militec? I don't ever run a motor without the stuff. Lots of professional racing engine builders won't build an engine without it. Give some a try.

www.militec-1.com

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i'm not throwing snake oil in a brand new motor...

my oil of choice is castrol syntec 10w30 normally and 5w30 for cold winters. when it's out or i can't find it, mobil 1 synthetic is my next choice.

but to start this one off, consdering i'd be chanign the oil 4 - 5 times during break in, i just used regular havoline (texaco) dinosaur oil.

mac - the ticking is not the generic ticking i get from the old man's 5.2 318 (same motor i built for the 88 but not a magnum style and not with fuel injection - same basic block though). it's more of a wrapping / ticking... it's not so much a "engine-y" sound as it is a "something's not kosher" sound. if that makes any sense.

the motor sat for a year with nothing but pre-lub all over it (that heavy STP oil treatment ****). every part was lubed before assembly, but like i said, it sat a long time.

i've changed the oil probably 5 or 6 times during the 45 minute total runtime due to tracking down and fixing an oil pressure problem.

beardog, i'm pretty much following what you're saying, and as much as i want to agree with you, i'm scared of one thing. (otherwise i'd probably agree 100%).

... i read an article that states that in 1985 the cylinder heads were basically the same as previous years, but the holes for the push rods were enlarged slightly to accomidate the increased travel of the rod within the hole due to the longer lifters. Note - in 1985 chyrsler switched to a roller cam and lifter on the 318's... this hit trucks around 88 since apparently they improved on car motors before truck motors. Well... I went and put 1983 police interceptor heads on the damn thing... which means those holes for the push rods are a little skinnier than the ones that the truck would have come with stock. Since, in 83, they had flat tapped cams and solid bottom lifters as opposed to rollers.

now - when i first got the **** together, one of the cylinder heads i bought was cracked (imperfection in the casting)... so after cranking the motor a few times (not starting, just cranking - tapping hte starter to circulate oil and ****)... i noticed this crack, pulled the head off and replaced it - well the push rods had what looked like FRESH minor scratches on them... bad enough that it worried me. i was like "What the hell? don't these line up??" -- well i asked jack and he's like "eh, its fine. it's just breaking in, probably no oil up there so they scratched a little" ... and i was ok with that explaination.

but now, after reading this article about the holes for the rods being bigger, i'm starting to wonder if that ticking is actually the push rods knocking against the holds in the heads...

thoughts?


if that is the problem, then i'm in a world of **** - those holes cannot be made larger with anything less than a precision boring machine. and it would involve disassembly of the entire top end... when i was just about ready to declare the son of a **** "done" completely and road test it.

neomagus00

i think it's definitely worth a look... better to get inside, discover it's off, and fix it, than to get out on the road and have a rod explode at 6000 rpm because you didn't want to check it...

faster100

after that long a sit, I would have yanked the heads/intake and re-lubed it.. are they hydrallic (sp) lifters? they could be dry and/or not pumping up.. or the push rod problem you mentioned sounds like a real deal to investigate into... either way the top end needs removed and checked for clearence.. also if you had a oil flow/pump problem you could have ruined the lifters from no oil... in which case you would still need to replace/inspect them,

also id stay away from synthetic oil,(unless it was intended for the engine) Had a friend who built a motor and started with syn oil before it was broke in, ended up tearing it back apart.. 5/30 or 10/30 for a new motor is fine.. kinda besides the point at this point but,

hellohello

Isnt DIY fun? :P

exalted512

sell it, buy a FSC
-Cody

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everything is bathed in oil at this point - pulled both valve covers and soaked everything in oil - the intake valley is drenched as well...

the lifters are hydraulic rollers.

synthetic oil is a god send. the 98 through 02 5.2L had a BAD sludge problem. something like 3 out of 10 motors had to be torn down at 50 -70 k miles due to sludging in the oil that would plug up the pickup screen and starve the motor. only solution was synthetic oil - it doesn't sludge nearly as easily. i had syntec in the old man's truck and now 7 years later i pulled the pan finally and noticed not one drop of sludge on that pickup screen, and not one "grimey" particle in the bottom of the pan. i don't think there is better "insurance" available at 5 bucks a quart.

the problem with the oil turned out to not actually be an oil problem but an air lock.

i had air lock in the galley leading up to the sender... the rest of the system was getting oiled, but since air compresses muchmore than oil, i never got a true reading on the gauge. after bleeding the line out - i was 1 PSI below specification at idle and on the dot at high rpm. so i went to a high volume pump to be extra sure, and now i'm 4 psi above spec at idle ant 10 above spec at high rpm.

i'm friggin terrified of this thing now - its going to have to sit another week until i have time to pull the top end apart again. grrrrrr...

Jstas

First off, you are supposed to use "dinosaur" oil during break in. So don't worry about that and keep synthetics away for at least 5,000 miles. After that you can switch to sythetics without a problem. Synthetics don't have the same characteristics during break-in that "dinosaur" oils do so the "dino" oils are better for break in. Any engine builder worth his salt with tell you that. NO enginer builder I know has EVER recommeneded additives. They don't help. The oil already comes with all the necessary detergents and additives that it needs to do its job properly. All you need to do is to maintain regular changing intervals and keep it in clean filters. Modern oils, synthetic or natural, should not require any additives and they should not have any problems with sludge build-up and such.

As far as your noise goes, two things could be wrong and I'm betting it's one of the two here. One, your rocker arms need to be adjusted. They will tick when loose and if they are loose enough, they will make loud rapping noises. Best thing to do is to go over your rockers and adjust them like your supposed to with the engine running. If the noise doesn't go away within a 1/4 of a turn, you have a problem, stop tightening or your will bend/break a push rod or two or 16 or even collapse a lifter or two or...you get the picture. However, if the issue you have stated about the pushrod holes being larger on some models is true then that is probably the culprit if noises don't go away with a rocker arm adjustment.

Unfortunatly, you will have to pull the heads. Rest easy though because machining larger holes will not cost a fortune by a long shot. It will require a good deal of labor on your part and I would highly recommend getting a new set of pushrods. It is totally worth it in the end though.

Also, during tightening, make sure that you did not damage any lifters either. If you are leary, replace the lifters when you replace the pushrods. They are not that expensive if you don't have a hi-po application there.

Lastly, the engine can sit for a long while without running as long as the assembly oils do not get removed or fall off. As long as the engine does not move, tolerances should be the same. The only issue is making sure that seals and gaskets have not dry-rotted. Otherwise, the assembly lubes and oils are meant to give that initial lubrication and aide assembly. They also prevent machined/finished parts from rusting too. Do not worry about leaving the engine sit for a year or so, it is not an issue at this point.

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John,

so basically, run the **** with the valve covers off and figure out if its a simple valvetrain adjustment or whether its the pushrods/holes.

also - this sounds so friggin dumb - but "how" do i adjust a valvetrain? i mean, is it just a matter of turqueing the rail hold down screws down to exact spec (or maybe a pound or two tighter) or shimmying the rail forward or backward 1/32nd of an inch (that's about all it'll move in either direction) or what?

if it is the rods/holes, swap out a set of lifters and rods when i re-bore the holes.

sounds good enough for me.

i'm glad to hear you agree with me on the oil/additives thing. i always was of the idea that if a good running motor "needed" an additive, then something wasn't so good about it - and that any additive was nothing more than a band-aid (if it works - like that stop leak ****) at best to fix a serious problem.

i'm going to let this sit till the weekend, i've gotta keep up with school work for now.

if/when i determine it is the rod holes and have to cut them out - (hopefully i wont come to that) - do you suggest i have a machine shop do it, or is this something that i could do with a drill press and some good quality bits on my own ? i mean, in my head, i'm saying "eh, just be careful, go slow, and don't crack anything" - but very rarely have i been so lucky as to have my "head" (pardon the pun) be correct about much of anything.

Jstas

The tightening procedure I am not sure of for teh Dodges especially the ones with the girdles. You'd probably have to look that up somewhere in a shop manual or online some place. I also have a hard time explaining it without showing somebody what I am talking about. I'm pretty useless when explaining it. Best to find a shop manual or something.

As far as boring the holes, I'd take it to a machine shop. There are water passeges and oil passeges that you do not want to make a mistake a punch a hole through. A machine shop has the equipment to line them up properly and get them straight as an arrow. It may cost a bit more but when it comes to cutting holes in engine blocks and cylinder heads, I leave it to the professionals. Besides, they most likely have a mill that will make extremely short work of it. You can probably wait for it to get done provided they aren't backed up.

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good point about the water/oil passages... there main oil galley for each head runs not too far from where one of those rod holes is - damn bastids! - and thank you again. i'll keep ya posted on how it goes.

exalted512

what school work?
-Cody

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exalted512 wrote:

what school work?
-Cody

the stuff they give you in school - you know, that horrible dreaded place that we hate going to and wish we could just burn down...

i'm currently killing 2 hours waiting for a flippin class that doesn't start till 5 - ARGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH. i need a beer.

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And the Verdict is in!

After removing the passenger side valve cover (its easier to take that one off fast because the brake booster gets in the way of the screws for the driver side) I discovered that the push rods looked a little "ehh not-a so-a good-a".

So I pulled the rocker-rail off (I'd really like to know the REAL name for that part... the rail the rocker's sit on is called the what rail?) and yanked some rods...

They're bloody bent.

It's not horrible, but it's a good 5 degrees (naked eye guess) of curvature. They are also scored / knicked on the inside of the curve. Basically, as the hydraulic lifter pushes it up, it pushes up the rocker and moves itself a little upward in the process... smacking into the hole in the cylinder head that is made for it - but too small.

I still have the old engine (cracked block) sitting in the grass in my backyard - no I'm not trying to become white trash, but it is INVALUABLE to have it there as a reference for diagnosing set-up problems with the new engine. It helped me in assuring myself of the oiling problem, and it's helping me now too... I compared the size of the push rod holes on the new engine to the old one...

New one = an immeasureable amount below 0.5 inches. just about touching 0.5 on the tape measure.

Old one = 0.66 inches exactly on the dot. that's 25% increase in size over what's in the truck...

So I confirmed the "0.66 inches is ideal size for the roller cam/roller lifter setup" thing by referencing some online information from multiple sources.

So I got a 5/8 industrial drill bit from Sears Hardware (5/8 = about 0.625 --- considering my drill and hand will shake a bit during drilling a 2 inch deep hole through cash iron, I figured that was about perfect - also, nobody makes a 2/3 inch drill bit that I could find).

Anyhow - I pulled the intake manifold off (gonna have to hit that with some quick touch up paint cuz I scratched it up a bit getting the bolts out - and I so do love my pretty purple paint job) and I stuffed the valley with rags and **** so that the shavings don't go in the motor.

Then I started drilling --- I got all the ones on the passenger side done - took me about 2 1/2 hours and a lot of cutting oil. I was going to take it somewhere, but I remembered now why I can't take off the driver side cylinder head. The deck surface on the block has a mating problem and it literally is a 2 afternoon job to get it to seal up properly (while in the truck - out of the truck it's only a couple hours of being patient and tapping it into place using some "line up" marks I made). I went through 3 or 4 gasket sets trying to get the **** to stay the way I wanted it to - finally had to grind some of it down. Either way - Jack was like "don't take the fkin heads off".

So - I vaccuum'd it all out and it looks good. I don't have an "inside" micromoter, but I'm going to get one tomorrow after school and check the holes at various places in their depth and compare it to the "ideal" old motor. If I'm between 0.65 and 0.67 I'll be a happy guy.

Now I've gotta order some new pushrods with the oiling holes in them (the older engines oiled through a galley that went up into the rail and then down through a pin hole in each rocker to the push rod tip) and I'm going to replace the lifters just in case they got fouled up by the whole stress of the bent rods (and the stress they encountered when the rods became bent in the first place - all that smacking into steel).

I'll let you guys know how it turns out.

hellohello

not being a motor-head myself, whats so great about the cylinders ur using? U said '83 police interceptors right...? Are they some sort of super cylinders that only the police are meant to have? Go ahead and use technical jargon if u must, I dont mind, I like a challenge.

The cylinder is connected to the rock-er, the rocker is connected to the lift-er, the lifter is connected to the... thingamabob....

Jstas

Many "Police Interceptor" packages came with hot rodded versions of the engines you could find in the civillian version of the cars the police use. The way they hot rod these engines is through many old hot rodder tricks.

First thing you have to understand is that an engine is an air pump. Because of that, the simple fact is that the more air you move through an engine, the more power it will make. You do this through shaping ports, increasing the sizes of holes and increasing displacement. Once you realize that, the things I am going to discuss will make more sense.

The hot rodder tricks they do are things like polish the intake and exhaust ports in the heads and manifolds to improve the flow characteristics of the heads and intake. This creates more air flow into and out of the combustion chamber so that more air flows with less resistance. More air means more power.

Another trick is to make the size of the combustion chamber smaller. That increases compression ratio. This usually requires a bump in the octane level of fuel that the engine uses. Today's aluminum headed engines will dissapate heat faster so they don't always require high-test fuel.

Other tricks are to change the ratio of the rocker arms or go from stamped steel arms to solid roller arms. Less valvetrain flex means more accurate valve openings and closing which means better flow of air which means more air into and out of the engine which means...yep...more power.

Another trick that usually accompanies a port job is a valve job and possibly increased valve size. Bigger holes usually mean more air. Smoother transitions from teh port to the chamber are facilitated by the port job. Both of these means smoother flowing air and more air which means more power.

Another trick is to install a hotter cam with a different lobe profile. This will change how fast, how far and how long the valves are opened. This means different and usually more air flow which means more air which means more power. However, ignition timing usually has to be changed and your timing advance will usually need to be increased too to ensure a complete burn of the air/fuel mixture and thereby maximizing your power output.

These all seem like little changes and they are. However, if done together and matched properly, a 225 horsepower V8 all of a sudden becomes a 300 horsepower V8. The little things add up and often make the parts of teh engine that were fairly well matched before to work together better. This improves efficiency which means more air which means more power.


What does all this means then? Well, I am not 100% sure about the PI heads for Vinnie's engine there but there are general rules of thumb for PI engines. My best, educated guess as to why Vinnie chose those heads was because they have a slightly smaller combustion chamber, better cooling characteristics and provisions for the roller rocker arms instead of the usual stamped steel rocker arms. That can mean as mush as a 30 horsepower increase and it also pushes the power curve up the RPM band a bit and helps flatten it out. Flattening out the power curve means that you have more power over a longer period of time and usually results in a wide sweet spot of the power band that will make the truck run like a raped ape without changing or futzing with gear ratios too much.


I'm sorry that I can't share more info but there is alot to the difference when you are talking things like port flow, cam duration, ignition dwell time and compression ratios. It requires much more understanding than your average joe has. Yes, the basic concept can be brought across easily but then there is always the inevitable "Why?" question asked. The ideas are easy to comprehend but the science requires a textbook behind it and an understanding of physics and thermal and fluid dynamics. Not to say that I know everything there is to know about it. I did take thermal and fluid dynamics classes in school and it helped fill in the picture for me. Then again, I have almost 18 years of experience with automotive things so my experience level helps out alot too.

hellohello

hmm.. an air pump... so basically the more air u can get in the chamber the better... so im guessing thats the theory behind blowers, force the air in. My old man got one of those K&N filter lids, its the round lid for the old carb style air filter, but it has a filter in the middle of it, for more air intake, he says he gets ~26mpg highway with his big **** '98 dodge conv van. I thought he was exaggerating, and still think maybe he is, but from what i gather it could be somewhat accurate?

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hellohello,

John is 100% right in everything he's said. In my specific case, not all of those hot rod tricks have been put into place, but some of them have.

"Ideal" 1983 Chrysler Gran Fury Police Interceptor Package (not squad car - interceptor) with 318 will have the following.

note "standard" means --- "what came on every other 318 that you would have bought during that time if it wasn't an interceptor"...

1- Standard 318 Chrysler / Dodge block (late 70's through 1985).
2- Forged standard size pistons and connecting rods.
3- Forged crank shaft.
4- Standard solid lifter 318 cam shaft.
5- Solid Lifters
6- Forged 6 3/4 inch push rods.
7- High volume oil pump
8- 4 barrel intake manifold from the 360 block. the "flow" of this intake was better than the normal 2 barrel intake that went with a standard 318, but it was not properly set up for a 318... you have to understand that air/fuel mixture is "sucked" into the combustion chamber, not pushed... so bigger is better only to a certain point... try to suck on a skinny straw - you get a nice high pressure stream. try to suck on a big hose, sloppy low pressure stream. but you can't have them so small that you can't suck at all -- it's a "balance".
9- Standard everything else including ignition and distributor.
10- PI heads - this is a "standard" 318 head that has a significantly smaller combustion chamber (about 15% smaller). Also - standard heads do no thave the "tunnels" for coolant and oil and intake inside of the head polished out... they are just "rough" cast and left as is. The cop heads are all smoothed out inside. They also have larger intake and exhaust valves.
11- forged steel rockers (looked like little fingers) that are individually lined and locked in place on the rail.
12- mated to a standard 727 torqueflite.

What my engine has (since nobody's perfect)...

1- 1990 dodge 318 block standard (basically the same as the old 70's / 80's 318 block).
2- Cast Aluminum standard size pistons (standard pistons). Forged connecting rods (these came "standard" - only the piston material is different, not the rod).
3- standard cast crank shaft.
4- standard roller cam shaft and hydraulic roller lifters (after 1988 these became standard - this is an upgrade over the solid type, but it is an upgrade that became "stock" on regular engines after 88).
5- Chromeoly 6 3/4" push rods (non forged).
6- high volume oil pump.
7- 1983 PI heads.
8- 4 barrel Edelbrock Performer RPM intake manifold. fixes issues with the original 360 style manifold (only 4 barrel manifold available "stock" for a 318) and is designed with the 318 "hot rod" in mind.
9 - late 1970's style ignition module... this is pretty close to what the cop cars had in the early 80's -- its a dual ballast instead of a single ballast unit, but it's a damn good match - much more reliable than a computer or a MSD ignition even - and it beats the pants off capacitative discharge mallory / accel systems. It's simple, and it works like a tank - just because it's a 30 year old design doesn't change that.
10- stamped steel rockers, "self aligning" - they only go one way.
11- mated to a 727 torqueflite transmission (late 1970's issue - original tranny in this truck was a **** 904 with 4 wheel drive... i'm 2wd now).

So what am I looking at?

Well, the 83 PI 318 was (not on paper but in reality) a 300 horse motor with plenty of torque to spare.

The standard 83 PI 318 and the standard 90 318 (if swapped to carburetor from fuel injection) is only a 175 horsepower motor.

Now I don't have all the advantages of that cop motor, but I've incorporated some.

I'm looking for a real world 210 - 230 horsepower. That's not mind blowing, but there's also a good torque increase, and as John said, my power range is going to be much flatter. Instead of peaking at 175 horse at say 3,000 rpm, and then being down at 150 horse or 120 horse for other rpms... I'll have a nice wide band of say 2,000 to 3,500 with steady power... say 200 to 225 horse... even if its lower, but nice and steady, I'll consider it a successful venture. I got around 400 at the crank on a dyno, but that's at the crank with huge trick flow headers and open exhaust with a 750 cfm carb.

I'm running a 500 cfm now (the proper size for that engine) and it has a standard size exhaust on it. manufacturer horse ratings are at the rear wheels "as equipped" meaning "when the car's all done"... So I imagine I'll be down around the low to mid 200's... which is perfectly fine by me.



On a side note - I drilled out the other side... didn't hit any galleys or ports, so I'm happy so far. I have to wait like 4 days for my lifters and push rods to show up... hydraulic lifters are crazy expensive - the cheapest I found was rockauto.com ... $210 for stock pushrods and stock hydro lifters. Summit was nearly 260.

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oh one more thing i forgot...

standard issue cylinder heads for both the 1990 issue and 1983 issue and just about every 318 after 1980-ish had provisions for SMOG -- god i hate smog - it just slows the damn motor down and does nothing but cause trouble.

the 83 interceptors did not have smog provisions, BUT they did have EGR (exhaust gas recirculation) - but EGR doesn't hurt, it actually helps reduce emissions without lagging a motor at all... sometimes it helps you get better gas mileage without hampering power (so long as it's on a temperature delay switch... that it doesn't kick on until the motor is at a certain temperature -- EGR on a COLD engine is BAD... "knock knock knock.. etc".)

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oh - and on the drill bits - i used one really really fat craftsman bit (dunno who they have make it for them), but it didn't bend or flex at all... i had to re-sharpen it a few times to get the "tooth" back on the tip of it, but it did an allright job -- the drill itself almost took a **** on me... overheated a couple times.... its got a thermal switch in it somewhere... **** kicks off when it gets too hot -- damn thing was hot enough that it literally was painful to hold before it shut off.

i'm going to drain the oil pan just to be 100% sure that i got all the "goobers of metal" out... i slopped 2 quarts of freash oil all over the area (after i picked up the coverings, vaccuumed it, and cleaned it all out till i thought it was totally clean of debris) just to be sure that it would pick up any little duds and roll em down into the crank case... the cam sits right above the crank, you can see the cam from underneath (with the pan off) and from above... so if i got any goobers on the cam, i also drenched that in oil to remove anything that may have wandered by. i've probably got 8 qts of oil in that damn pan now, but imma drain it all out - refill it with some more 10-40 dino juice, and tap the starter a few times - get that oil pump to shove the new **** into the filter, then i'll change the filter just because i'm paranoid and anything that may have got stuck in the pan would get rammed into the filter right away so.. ya - i'm nuts. i know. but i've got like 3,500 in this motor already and it was only supposed to be a "500 dollar rebuild" when i started on it... whole damn truck has about 14-ish thousand into it --- ya -- i'm nuts --- i know.

hellohello

wow... sounds like a lot a work u got goin... i can understand the paranoia
i didnt know u could convert a fuel injection to a carb, but i do know that some of the old ways are the best ways, my old man was a GE repairman for 30 years, and he says the way they make appliances now theyre not meant to last more than 10 years, he has a 30 year old fridge in the basement that still works, all original compressors and all, because the system has so few moving parts theres less to go wrong, and no electric heaters to get fouled, of course those "innovations" kept him working :rolleyes:

thanks for the explanations u guys, im may not go build a motor, but at least i know somewhat the theory behind it I always liked seeing how things worked, or at least hearing about it, i come from a long line of curiousity and years of watching this old house and the new yankee workshop on PBS :P

audiobliss

hellohello wrote:

i didnt know u could convert a fuel injection to a carb

Yup. Comparatively speaking, it's not that difficult. However, try going from a carb to EFI. Now that's a nightmare - a costly one, too.

Not that I've done it. I'm just a major car nut. And I'm trying to learn more, like you.

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going from carb to efi is a nightmare if you try to replicate the factory systems.

however, you can buy kits from Holley and others that are "efi all in one packages" - they are not multi port injection, but rather the "throttle body injection" or "CFI" (early fuel injection in the 80's and 90's) ... but they cost between 1500 and 3500 dollars. for the minor increase in performance, it is wholly a waste of money to me. if it was 1500 for a multi-port kit, then you'd be talking something good.

MacLeod

I personally prefer Edelbrock. Ive seen several stories on them in magazines and on car shows like Trucks and they are very impressive. They design and build their stuff in the USA too which is a plus.

Plus didnt they just buy out Holley so now they can offer complete kits that cover everything?

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Holley bought out Lunati and others...

... if Edelbrock ever bought out holley that would be the end of the automotive aftermarket (spritually).

It would like like RF buying MTX or vice-versa...

Holley guys hate Edelbrock. Edelbrock guys hate Holley. There's no middleground there. It's all blood-lust for the true gear heads that like one brand or the other.

However, being an Edelbrock fan, I would have a little giggle and smile if they did buy out Holley.

hellohello

ok, so basically u can take an EFI Electronic fuel injection, and take out the electronic part, and go back to the old carb system?... freakin sweet I work with 'puters and theyre nothin but glorified retards. The idea of having a glorified **** in charge of a motor.. not a good picture in my mind. I know the Japanese hail computers and use them for everything, but theyre computers are still retards, just 5 years ahead of ours. :rolleyes:

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well it's not 100% as simple as that.

If you have a (for lack of a better term) "first generation" fuel injection system (CFI) then you can just rip the throttle body/injector assembly (it's one piece) right off, and bolt a carburetor on (will probably require adaptor plate - readily available at Autozone, etc), and you're good to go.

This assumes...

1- you have determined that your transmission does not have an electronic lockup torque converter and it not electronically actuated in any other way (shift points, etc).

2- you have secured a means for providing automatic transmission kickdown (stock linkage adaptation or a cable linkage or something).

3- you buy a carb that follows the carb math rule ...

[edit - woops! put some **** wrong rule in here ! - ok here's the right one]

Engine size (cid) x max. rpm x volumetric efficiency / 3456 = cfm of carb

example... 500 cid x 4500 rpm x 85% / 3456 = 553 cfm MINIMUM requirement.

500 x 4500 x 100% / 3456 = 651 cfm - only if your engine was 100% efficient - which it isn't.

Most street motors are around 85% (normal) to 90% (high performance) when new. as they age, they get a little shittier due to carbon build up inside the combustion chamber and other deposits... so you're down to 80 to 85.

Over or under carbing is hell on earth.

Everybody told me "800 to 850 cfm on that 500 cadillac motor" --- the drugs people do is insane. At that size of a carb, I'd be so flooded with richness with the gas stabbed that it would be ridiculous, i'd foul plugs and foul up the heads like a **** in no time.

Now, I'm not one to want to air it out and starve a motor either - so 553 is too damn small in my opinion... add 50 ... that's about 603 cfm - so I used a 600 cfm. would a 650 hurt? no, it would be fine also, when you're that close the mixture adjustment screws will bring you into where you need to be, but 750 - 850 would not be a good idea on that motor BONE STOCK. Hop it up, and see your max rpm increase and what not - and yes you need bigger.

My truck calls for something like 410 cfm, but i couldn't find a 4 barrel around the 450-ish i wanted, so i had to use the next size up - 500 cfm.

If you have multiport fuel injection, you will surely need to change your intake manifold --- it will not support carburetion, nor was it designed for it. A good example are those bloody plastic intakes they use now-a-days. You will have to fulfill 1 through 3.

Either way, you may end up having to change cylinder heads... EFI is (i hate to say it) much more efficient... it provides a more "thoroughly mixed" atomization of gasoline within air than a carb ever could. The result is that you can use a larger combustion chamber with EFI (less compression) and still get the same power... this often times results in funny shaped chambers (ie. the chrysler "heart" chamber") that are aimed at reducing emissions while maintaining power... but if you put a carb on those ****, forget about it -- it'll knock and ping and just generally run like a dead animal.

hellohello

oh poo, i got me hopes up... its never that easy is it?
Oh well, when i get my car to run on water ill not have to worry so much
http://www.spiritofmaat.com/archive/feb2/carplans.htm