Synergy and blind test - how else would you measure?

polkatese

I was reading Septermber issue of Stereophile last night, and one review is on the Sim Audio Moon Rock power amp ($18k per mono block, ouch!) and it dawned on me: all these reviews are setup based on the other high-end components within the system, ie: power cord, conditioner, CDP, etc. So, the question I have is, after all is said and done, the subjective (and objective measurements of the quality) of the reviewers are really come down to two criterias: synergy and opinion. If I take away any monetary limitations to the budget, how do I REALLY know, what and how brand X compared to brand Y, relative to its true performance?

I know from experience, I rely on owner feedbacks and my own experience, in deciding what to buy. I know this is a ranting statement more than anything, but it makes almost no sense of trying to draw an informed opinion of a particular gear, just from reading a magazine like Stereophile and others, other than admiring the pics, stats, price, and the rest of the gears that go with it...

madmax

I often read reviews of equipment I already own. I often agree with most of what I read. The job of a reviewer is very complex and obviously all reviewers are not coming from the same place we are. The key is to pick the reviewers you most often agree with. Once you do that you can use their information to some extent.
madmax

heiney9

polkatese wrote:

I was reading Septermber issue of Stereophile last night, and one review is on the Sim Audio Moon Rock power amp ($18k per mono block, ouch!) and it dawned on me: all these reviews are setup based on the other high-end components within the system, ie: power cord, conditioner, CDP, etc. So, the question I have is, after all is said and done, the subjective (and objective measurements of the quality) of the reviewers are really come down to two criterias: synergy and opinion. If I take away any monetary limitations to the budget, how do I REALLY know, what and how brand X compared to brand Y, relative to its true performance?

I know from experience, I rely on owner feedbacks and my own experience, in deciding what to buy. I know this is a ranting statement more than anything, but it makes almost no sense of trying to draw an informed opinion of a particular gear, just from reading a magazine like Stereophile and others, other than admiring the pics, stats, price, and the rest of the gears that go with it...

I agree with your observations. Only thing I can add is at least when they are swaping out gear they have a frame of reference to compare the newly added gear. Simply in terms of what was in the system before. I have seen some reviewers keep detailed notes of previous equipment tests and then they go back over their own notes to make observations/comparisons to the new gear. No test of anything is going to be perfect and making incremental changes (ie; gear changes 1 piece at a time) is the logical process. But you are right 'synergy' is something that is an important part of the equation.

I use all reviews/observations as a rough guide and obviously if a pattern arises (lack of soundstage; warm; detailed, etc.) then maybe that's a good clue as to how that piece is. Mainly it's a crap shoot and even reading between the lines isn't going to give a good indication how it will perfom for you in your system in your environment.

H9

Emlyn

polkatese wrote:

I know from experience, I rely on owner feedbacks and my own experience, in deciding what to buy. I know this is a ranting statement more than anything, but it makes almost no sense of trying to draw an informed opinion of a particular gear, just from reading a magazine like Stereophile and others, other than admiring the pics, stats, price, and the rest of the gears that go with it...

I view "Stereophile"and "The Absolute Sound" reviews as just one informed opinion. I wouldn't base any buying decisions on their reviews alone, just like I wouldn't buy a car without test driving it, but they do provide me with a basis for even considering whether or not to go out and look at something for myself. For example, the Gallo Reference 3 speakers gained a stellar review from "The Absolute Sound", so I went to a local dealer and listened to them on Musical Fidelity gear. The speakers were mostly what the reviewer described, but turned out not to be what I really wanted. The reviewer's opinion was spot on about the clarity and resolution of the speakers but he glossed over the size and dynamic ability of the speakers when they lacked the subwoofer amp. So, I would say the reviewers have a useful purpose for me, but quite often they don't tell the whole story. I did later buy some Musical Fidelity gear though, so the trip to the dealer was useful in another way after all. I would have returned the gear I bought if it didn't have synergy with my system, but it worked as planned.

steveinaz

There are so many varibles that the only reason I read audio reviews anymore is for potential design problems/issues. My system is not; and probably never will be, at such a level that I would be concerned with these multi-thousand dollar components anyway. IMO, there's just not enough bang for the buck in these "super-esoteric" pieces. I can only guess at what the profit margin is on this stuff, and they're not getting any of my money.

The oldest advice in audio is still the best....listen for yourself and decide.

My maximums for equipment are:

Speakers: $2500/pr
Amp: $1500
Preamp/CDP/Other: $1000
IC's: $100/pr
Speaker cable: $500/pr

If I need more money than listed above to get good music, it's time to find a new hobby.

heiney9

madmax wrote:

I often read reviews of equipment I already own. I often agree with most of what I read. The job of a reviewer is very complex and obviously all reviewers are not coming from the same place we are. The key is to pick the reviewers you most often agree with. Once you do that you can use their information to some extent.
madmax

I do that too. A small part of it is to validate that I made a good decision. Sometimes I have to read the review to see if it does what they say it does. And of course to see if I actually agree with what they observed. This can be contradictory sometimes. One particluar piece of mine (AMC DAC-8) received two pretty good reviews and even after reading between the lines the unit doesn't meet the expectations I had for it. It's not off by too much, but it's not as good as I expected it to be.

Isn't it funny how no review I have read actually says the product stinks. You have to do a lot of intepreting and reading between the lines. I wonder if there are products out there they intend to review but after listening they just choose not to write the review because the piece is so bad. Does just the mere fact that they are including the review mean it's passed some sort of pre-test screening? Do magazines like Stereophile just not publish articles/ reviews about pieces that don't meet their standard? Why not review it and tell it like it is?

H9

Emlyn

heiney9 wrote:

Do magazines like Stereophile just not publish articles/ reviews about pieces that don't meet their standard? Why not review it and tell it like it is?

I think the fact is that almost all high-end gear these days works very well and doesn't warrant a bad review, just a review saying what the purpose of the gear is and offer some hints on how it might work well in some situations and not so well in others. There are exceptions though. For example, "The Absolute Sound" reviewed one of those laser LP turntables very recently and pointed out problems with the very expensive gear in real world use and said that the laser turntable sounded more like digital audio than analog. The manufacturer wrote a long and nasty response to the review, saying the reviewer didn't know how to listen to music and didn't know what live music sounded like.

madmax

steveinaz wrote:

My maximums for equipment are:

Speakers: $2500/pr
Amp: $1500
Preamp/CDP/Other: $1000
IC's: $100/pr
Speaker cable: $500/pr

If I need more money than listed above to get good music, it's time to find a new hobby.

Is that per year?

madmax

ND13

steveinaz wrote:

My maximums for equipment are:

Speakers: $2500/pr
Amp: $1500
Preamp/CDP/Other: $1000
IC's: $100/pr
Speaker cable: $500/pr

If I need more money than listed above to get good music, it's time to find a new hobby.

I agree on everything but the $500 for speaker wire. I know there's a difference, but I cannot justify going that far. Maybe, just maybe, I could see myself spending up to $150 for a 12-15 ft pair.

madmax

ND13 wrote:

I agree on everything but the $500 for speaker wire. I know there's a difference, but I cannot justify going that far. Maybe, just maybe, I could see myself spending up to $150 for a 12-15 ft pair.

I have to agree on lowering the speaker cable price. You could up that source price though. Maybe even double it.

madmax

polkatese

heiney9 wrote:

Isn't it funny how no review I have read actually says the product stinks. You have to do a lot of intepreting and reading between the lines. I wonder if there are products out there they intend to review but after listening they just choose not to write the review because the piece is so bad. Does just the mere fact that they are including the review mean it's passed some sort of pre-test screening? Do magazines like Stereophile just not publish articles/ reviews about pieces that don't meet their standard? Why not review it and tell it like it is?

H9

Yeah, I hear you. Perhaps what they should do is to start with the price band/bracket within the gear categories (CDP, Amp, Int. amp, etc.) and then do the review within those similarly priced gears. That way, short of saying: brand X sucks major a$$, they will say: it is not quite in the level of brand y, but definitely better than a Bose (sorry, can't help it. ..)

F1nut

TAS just did a "Recommended 6 high-end systems from $1500.00-$6000.00." While not quite a comparison between like gear, it does offer suggestions for gear that works well together at certain price points.

IMO, there's just not enough bang for the buck in these "super-esoteric" pieces. I can only guess at what the profit margin is on this stuff, and they're not getting any of my money.

1. Have you demoed any of the "super-esoteric" pieces?
2. Profit margins are less than you think for most high-end manufacturers.
3. They already did.

Look, everybody has their price point, yours is a lot more than others and others is a lot more than yours. There's no reason to knock the makers of gear priced higher than you're comfortable with. In most cases you are getting better sound for that money.

I think you need to raise the price on the source, IC's and speaker cables.

MacLeod

I put a lot of stock in magazine reviews and trust their conclusions for the most part. I know that the reviewer is putting his reputation on the line and if starts raving about some junk then it wont be too long before his rep is crap and he's manning the drive thru at the local Wendy's.

Now that doesnt mean you should buy products solely based on reviews but if used as a tool they can weed out equipment that probably wont interest you and enlighten you as to some you may have missed.

I also agree that you dont see a lot of bad reviews because a manufacturer isnt going to submit their junkiest pieces to be reviewed for one and reviewers know if they come of with "this Brand X cd player is the biggest piece of crap Ive ever seen. You should never buy this" that would be the end of companies submiting products to them for review.

Still Ive seen several critical reviews in car mags. Alphasonik gets smacked around with virtually everything they submit and even MB Quart got a less than stellar review on one of their subs not too long ago.