New Headunit Installed and Nice :o)

PoweredByDodge

I just got a new head unit.

I had been saying it was time to get rid of the modulation and stuff that controlled my Ken-ferd Changer and Satellite Radio, since I had an Alpine deck.

Well, after much consideration, I was happy to find that the Ken-ferd deck of my choice was only about $320 retail, so I went to a local shop (ya, I'm tryin to stop buying stuff - unless its like bulk wire or large purchases - off the internet) and picked it up.

It's a Ken-ferd Excelon 689.

-Three 4 volt preouts.
-System EQ's and Q's+ (it lets you adjust bass / mid / and trebble while also picking the frequency those center at as well as determine the "width" of the adjustment - it's a lot like Alpine's media expander, but I think Ken-ferd does a better job of it).
-Controls my circa 2002/2003 10 disc changer and satellite radio from the head unit so that's really nice.


My initial impressions were great.
1- It has true non-clipping preouts. Dial it all the way up and the signal is not distorted... I even tried to put in a cd with a song that I intentionally amplified the recording on... It seems like Ken-ferd put some sort of compression circuitry into the Excelon decks that prevents it from clipping. I like that. I'd never want compression on an amplifier, but its nice to have it on a deck.

2- The sound quality of my cd changer is 99.999999999% as good as my deck now. The deck has 24 bit burr brown DAC. Which, believe it or not, I THINK I can notice the difference, but it may be that the deck itself is just better. The KW changer does not have the higher end DAC.

3- Satellite radio, while not perfect or anything, is very acceptable. It was almost intolerable on the modulator - the modulator had a frequency response of 50 to 15,000 hertz... which is probably 3/4 of the problem.

While I find it a little hard to get used to the Ken-ferd controls after so many years of Alpine, it's coming along quite well. The highs are so much more rich and true, and I really don't miss the BBE at all.

It's a very asthetically pleasing piece as well... check out the link for a picture...

http://www.crutchfield.com/S-86eBP4eikFr/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?g=300&id=morephotos&pi=1&i=113KDCX689&display=L#Tab

oh, and "ken-ferd" is an old circuit city term. know how everybody does knock offs? like the Legacy or whatever they are that look just like Sony Xplods, and Rock-Wood that looks just like Rockford? Well, we used to make fun of kids that came in and knew nothing at CC, so we'd give them a hard tiem and try to sell the "Rosco" subs and "Ken-ferd" amps ... our own little made up Kenwood knockoff.

I call my best friend up and go "dude, I got a Ken-ferd finally", and he's just like "ahhh, my kingdom is flourishing".

PolkThug

I've seen "Alphine" head units being sold out of a white van.

exalted512

glad you like it, getting new audio is awesome. I was hoping I couldve ordered my tube amp by now but getting a MIP put a restraint on that for now
-Cody

MacLeod

Whats a MIP?

erobinson

MacLeod wrote:

Whats a MIP?

Minor in Possession (alcohol usually) lol. How did you manage that? You have to be pretty obvious about it here (Santa Barbara, CA) to get one.

erobinson

PoweredByDodge wrote:

-Three 4 volt preouts.
-System EQ's and Q's+ (it lets you adjust bass / mid / and trebble while also picking the frequency those center at as well as determine the "width" of the adjustment - it's a lot like Alpine's media expander, but I think Ken-ferd does a better job of it).
-Controls my circa 2002/2003 10 disc changer and satellite radio from the head unit so that's really nice.

I have a 10 band parametric equalizer and I think I wish there were less bands, at least without having an RTA. An EQ is much different from a PEQ.

My initial impressions were great.
1- It has true non-clipping preouts. Dial it all the way up and the signal is not distorted... I even tried to put in a cd with a song that I intentionally amplified the recording on... It seems like Ken-ferd put some sort of compression circuitry into the Excelon decks that prevents it from clipping. I like that. I'd never want compression on an amplifier, but its nice to have it on a deck.

Did Kenwood just electronically limit the volume control to prevent clipping? I'm pretty sure there's no such thing as a non-clipping amplifier, which is why I ask. I'm curious why would be ok with compression on your source, but not ok with compression on your amplifier, which is simply amplifying (duh) the sources output?

2- The sound quality of my cd changer is 99.999999999% as good as my deck now. The deck has 24 bit burr brown DAC. Which, believe it or not, I THINK I can notice the difference, but it may be that the deck itself is just better. The KW changer does not have the higher end DAC.

Does the CD changer utilize a digital connection to the deck? That's pretty cool if it does. If so, the new DAC's are most likely the reason you are hearing an improvement. If it is an analog connection to the deck, the signal would never pass through the deck's DAC, so in that case, other factors are the affecting it. Signal-noise ratio or stereo seperation maybe?

It's a very asthetically pleasing piece as well... check out the link for a picture...

http://www.crutchfield.com/S-86eBP4eikFr/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?g=300&id=morephotos&pi=1&i=113KDCX689&display=L#Tab

Actually not a bad looking unit. I usually don't like the aesthetics of Kenwood, but this one isn't half bad.

Congrats on the new deck, it's always fun to listen to the differences.

exalted512

erobinson wrote:

Minor in Possession (alcohol usually) lol. How did you manage that? You have to be pretty obvious about it here (Santa Barbara, CA) to get one.

it was about 1am in the morning, outskirts of town, 2 houses down on a dead end road. just a few kids talking and drinking. no music at all, no obnoxious yelling, talking, or laughing. i walk back outside and theres 3 bike(bicycle that is) cops. me and my g/f hired a lawyer and we think 3 more ppl are doing the same. there was 8 busted total. well have to see what happens
-Cody

audiobliss

Sure looks nice, pbd. Congrats!

1996blackmax

Congrats on the new HU. It's alway a lot of fun to play with new gear .

PoweredByDodge wrote:

The sound quality of my cd changer is 99.999999999% as good as my deck now. The deck has 24 bit burr brown DAC. Which, believe it or not, I THINK I can notice the difference, but it may be that the deck itself is just better. The KW changer does not have the higher end DAC.

Many people say that with the way HU's are put together now that you cannot tell the difference. I believe you can. Everytime I have gone from 1bit DAC units to 20 bit or 24 bit DAC units, I was able to tell. To me it sounds like the music has a little more detail and depth.

I thought Alpine's Media Xpander was a joke. Sounded OK with only certains songs. I really like my older Alpine units that had the BBE curcuit. BBE actually made all the music sound nicer.

Jstas

Which CD Changer did you get?

1996blackmax

About the compression thing. My MTX sub amp has a compression circuit bult in. I left it on when I installed it (the way it comes from the factory). MTX says it's there to help prevent the amp from clipping, and damaging your subs. I think I will try it with it disengaged to see if I hear a difference.

erobinson wrote:

I have a 10 band parametric equalizer and I think I wish there were less bands, at least without having an RTA. An EQ is much different from a PEQ.

I am very happy with my parametric EQ. I would take this over a graphic EQ any day. In my current system my HU analyses the frequency response through a microphone in my car and I can see the peaks and dips in my system. While it is not an RTA machine, I believe it does help. I can adjust the settings and curve on the HU itself, go to Eclipse's website and do the corretion there, or have the site automatically do it for me.

I had an Alpine CDA-7998 (had a 5 band parametric EQ) which did not have the analyser that the Eclipse HU has, but I was able to tune the system pretty nicely with it. I did spend many, many hours playing with it and beleive it or not the EQ settings are pretty close to what I have now.

PoweredByDodge

ERobinson...

1- they basically limit the volume control. it's not 100% perfect but it's very close. I actually was able to get it to distort when i kept dicking with it, but for about 9 out of 10 things, you can't get it to cross clipping threshhold. This is only important because of how the pre-outs are rated. The Alpine I had was "4 volt out" but that was 4 volts max (not to be confused with peak to peak - i mean maximum rms output)... you'd dial it up and you'd get 4 volts but it would be dirty as hell. true non-clipped rms top voltage was about 2 1/4 to 2 1/2. the kenwood appears to give a full 5 volts prior to clipping (on the rare occasion it clips) because i had to dial my gains back a good bit. the only "true" non clipping amplifiers are not non-clipping. they simply have compression circuitry or extremely limited gain potentials - as in they COULD pout out 15 volts but instead limited at 4 or 5 just so that some schmuck doesn't over-drive them.

2- i like compression on a deck because it will affect the entire system. it will limit distortion at extremely high volume and keep everything flowing nicely. compression on an amp sucks though because if i want to drive an amp hard and into a slight clip, i dont want the stupid thing telling me i can't do that. the 81000d mtx amps i have are factory with compression circuitry - there's a pin hole with a button to press to diable it. now i don't know the total ins and outs of compression, but when that thing was "on", i couldn't get jack **** for output from the two alpine 10" type R's i had hooked to it. so i turned it off and it "sounded" almost twice as loud. i doubt it was nearly that much of a power improvement but i went from being able to almost barely feel bass to having a nice back massage. i was so happy with the "off" 81000d that i ended up getting another one when i went to the IDmaxes. so if the deck prevents clipping, and its not loud enough for me, i can always raise my gains (provided i'm not getting insane with it and driving the amp into audible clipping). but if the amp has compression circuitry (thats non-defeatable) then there's a limit on what i can do with it... know what i mean?

3 - i do believe it's an analog signal to the deck. i'm almost positive. because you can actually solder wire to the pins on the back of the deck (where the changer input goes) and then put RCA's on the other end of what you soldered and use it as an auxilliary input for a playstation or whatever. (that's assuming you dont blow the deck up during trial and error - alpine is easier, they have a harness coming out the back for AI-net and if you strip the jacket off the "rca" wires are color coded). i think it's just a matter of ridding myself of the modulator - the separation between right and left channels didn't really used to be there... it is now. i'm insanely pleased with the difference.

4 - ya, kenwood's asthetics didn't used to be all that great. my first deck was a KDC-S309 (old timey). it was 225 bucks, but it had NOTHING on it. just a cd player and that's it. one damn preout - real basic. never skipped, sounded great, but looked like ****... like an old VCR, you know that plasticy black ugly square knob ****. kenwood kind of kept that look until lately. they're new standard series decks still look goofy though i think. they excelons are a little nicer though.

erobinson

1996blackmax wrote:

About the compression thing. My MTX sub amp has a compression circuit bult in. I left it on when I installed it (the way it comes from the factory). MTX says it's there to help prevent the amp from clipping, and damaging your subs. I think I will try it with it disengaged to see if I hear a difference.






I am very happy with my parametric EQ. I would take this over a graphic EQ any day. In my current system my HU analyses the frequency response through a microphone in my car and I can see the peaks and dips in my system. While it is not an RTA machine, I believe it does help. I can adjust the settings and curve on the HU itself, go to Eclipse's website and do the corretion there, or have the site automatically do it for me.

I had an Alpine CDA-7998 (had a 5 band parametric EQ) which did not have the analyser that the Eclipse HU has, but I was able to tune the system pretty nicely with it. I did spend many, many hours playing with it and beleive it or not the EQ settings are pretty close to what I have now.

Do you have the 2005 8xxx series? I have the Eclipse CD8053, but unfortunately it doesn't have a built-in mic. That would be useful. I'm not saying I want a graphic EQ, just that 10 bands is a little much without an RTA. Big difference between 5 and 10 to play with lol. When I get down to San Diego I think I'll have a shop use their RTA and eq it for me.

I would definitely disengage the compression circuit so long as you have your gains set fine and can resist the urge to turn your HU up to 100%. I think the circuit is there mostly to protect the manufacturer (hoping you'll be using MTX subs) from replacement issues from people that screw up their gains and blast their music.

PoweredByDodge

Jstas,

I have a Kenwood KDC-C710 changer... here's a pic...

http://www.mercadolibre.com.ar/jm/item?site=MLA&id=17791268

I guess it's an old model, but it was still in production up and through 2003. It just does CD's - with text and all that, but no mp3 or dvd function.

It was like $190 at Crutchfield... the ex bought it for me for christmas two years ago.

It only skips once in a blue moon. I guess i shouldn't have bolted it up right next to the subwoofer box... hehehe. Wasn't room for it anywhere else though.

1996blackmax

erobinson wrote:

Do you have the 2005 8xxx series? I have the Eclipse CD8053, but unfortunately it doesn't have a built-in mic. That would be useful. I'm not saying I want a graphic EQ, just that 10 bands is a little much without an RTA. Big difference between 5 and 10 to play with lol. When I get down to San Diego I think I'll have a shop use their RTA and eq it for me.

I would definitely disengage the compression circuit so long as you have your gains set fine and can resist the urge to turn your HU up to 100%. I think the circuit is there mostly to protect the manufacturer (hoping you'll be using MTX subs) from replacement issues from people that screw up their gains and blast their music.

I have the CD8454. It has 10 bands alltogether (5 front/tweeter & 5 rear/mids). I thought about waiting for the 05 models, but they are not very pleasing to my eyes. I am not really into the whole bling bling thing. I was also able to get a nice deal for the 8454. I am pretty happy with it. The only thing that kind of sucks is that the controls are not very fast, which makes the use of the remote control useless. Still I would not switch it for the newer Eclipse HU's.

That HU you have is one heck of a unit. I think once you get it tuned it will sound very nice. Those peaks will be tamed afterwards.

Man you guys have me pumped up, I am going to try the system without the compression circuit on RIGHT NOW .

PoweredByDodge

1996blackmax wrote:

Man you guys have me pumped up, I am going to try the system without the compression circuit on RIGHT NOW .

BE CAREFUL!

Things like the +18 db bass boost need to be dropped back to ZERO before you go doing that. You may have overcompensated gain and bass boost on the amp to deal with teh compression circuit, just be careful.

1996blackmax

Thanks for the info. I am actually very careful about the gain and the bass boost. I actually have the boost right now to maybe 2 or 3 dB's. I usually have it down to zero though. Till now I have not noticed if the compression circuit has even kicked in. Maybe I have not pushed it hard enough. I played with it a little bit, but just decided to leave the compression on. I could not really tell a difference, besides the wife opened up the garage door and gave me the LOOK . The come here look, but not the COME HERE LOOK!!!, more like let's go watch the movie we talked about watching look .

erobinson

1996blackmax wrote:

I have the CD8454. It has 10 bands alltogether (5 front/tweeter & 5 rear/mids). I thought about waiting for the 05 models, but they are not very pleasing to my eyes. I am not really into the whole bling bling thing. I was also able to get a nice deal for the 8454. I am pretty happy with it. The only thing that kind of sucks is that the controls are not very fast, which makes the use of the remote control useless. Still I would not switch it for the newer Eclipse HU's.

That HU you have is one heck of a unit. I think once you get it tuned it will sound very nice. Those peaks will be tamed afterwards.

Man you guys have me pumped up, I am going to try the system without the compression circuit on RIGHT NOW .

What peaks? I know it's nice lol, it sounds great right now actually. I just think it still might sound even better with after an RTA and tune. Which controls are not very fast? I don't think I've noticed any slow controls except for accessing the menu in the first place due to little animations. But, you can skip past those on my unit. Tell us if you notice a difference without the compression on. I bet you'll notice it when you on hard hits more than anything.

1996blackmax

erobinson wrote:

What peaks? I know it's nice lol, it sounds great right now actually. I just think it still might sound even better with after an RTA and tune.

The peaks in your frequency response. The RTA will measure this, and then you or the shop can adjust your system accordingly.

Which controls are not very fast? I don't think I've noticed any slow controls except for accessing the menu in the first place due to little animations. But, you can skip past those on my unit.

The units controls. Say turning the volume up or down. Trying to use the remote to go back a few tracks is a major pain. So I just don't use the remote. I may try the slim remote with the dedicated volume controls as opposed to the NOB remote. That is the main thing I will use it for any way.

It just takes a little while longer than on other units I have owned to do the same operations. There have always been things that I did not like about all of my HU'. Same thing with this one. It does not mean that I do not think that it is a great HU. The HU and processor combo that I actually liked the best for SQ and ease of use was my Alpine gear from the late 90's. If it were not for the player not liking CD-R's I would have kept it. I actually owned 2 of these.

Tell us if you notice a difference without the compression on. I bet you'll notice it when you on hard hits more than anything.

I will play with it again this evening to see if I notice a difference. Last night my little demo was cut short, so I will try it again .

MacLeod

Bass boost is the devil. Artificially changes the response curve, not to mention suck up power that would normally be used on other frequencies for the 18 extra db's.

Ever notice how SQ competitors never use bass boost? My kick **** Crossfires only have 6 db boost and I dont even use that.

Erobinson - Im with you on the EQ's. I dont much care for em myself. Scotty said it best,"the more you overwork the pipes, the easier it is to stop up the plumbing."

1996blackmax

Yeah but once you work them right they will flow very nicely .

MacLeod

Yeah, but when youve got 165 bands to tweak, how can you ever be sure youve got it right? "Maybe if I tweaked this up a bit and this one down a bit and narrowed the bandwidth on this one a tad and upped this one by a couple db's....."

Give me a treble and bass control and maybe the option to center them on a certai frequency and Im a happy guy!

1996blackmax

As long as you are happy with it, thats cool.

Dizzy_124dvc

1996blackmax wrote:

I thought Alpine's Media Xpander was a joke. Sounded OK with only certains songs. I really like my older Alpine units that had the BBE curcuit. BBE actually made all the music sound nicer.

Yup. I used to have good opinions on it, but when I ripped and burned some songs on a compiled MP3 Disc, it just didn't sound right. better to turn it off and just boost on the bass and choosing the right frequency, instead of the Xpander boosting all low freqs.

Curiously though, this only happened to me for Rock and Metal tracks. everything else, test CDs, Trance, Jazz...all else sounded better with the Xpander, even the original non-MP3 discs. but on Rock the bass guitar lords it all over everything else, and the drums lose the "punch" and gain some extension that s ounds like bass synth on Rap/RnB tracks.

coldrealms

Sweet I got the 789 recently, love being able to turn off the amp for cleaner preouts and the ACDrive is just plain neat