Our society

Mazeroth

After reading the thread on the price of gas I started thinking about how much we rely on vehicles in our lives and how our lives are seemingly getting worse and worse even though technology keeps advancing.

Imagine the US 100 years ago. No real roads. Minimal pollution. Barely even developed. Think about the peoples' quality of life, how much stress they had, how happy they were. I know I have no way of proving how stressed or happy they were, but my gut feeling tells me they were a lot happier and better off than we are today. Ignore medical advances, I'm just talking about overall quality of life.

Americans seem to work to support a material-driven lifestyle. Almost everyone I work with complains about not having enough money, having to send their kids to daycare and how expensive that is etc...yet they have no problem spending $3000 on a vacation to Disney, buying a 2800 ft2 house, a brand new SUV or a new 65in television. We Americans, in general, have our priorities way out of whack. When I tell people I don't have a cell phone they are absolutely ASTONISHED...speechless is a better word. Nothing pisses me off more than catching someone in their car, in the grocery store or in a restaurant on a cell phone. No, I'm not mad at that person or any of you guys for doing it, but I'm mad at ourselves for letting our society get as bad as it has.

My parents were born in 1945 and 1950 (myself in 1980) and the stories they tell me about how things were when they were growing up compared to how things are now...it's just sad. How children behaved in the 50s and how they behave today is a TOTAL 180. My fiancee is an elementary teacher in a public school and the stories I hear weekly are mind blowing. We live in a very nice neighborhood with minimal crime, nice housing and generally nice people, but the way their kids are acting is absolutely insane. What else is sad is 95% of the people I work with that are married and have kids have both parents working and have had their children in daycare. Instead of buying a new car or a huge house you don't need, why not stay home to raise your kid? Did you know the size of houses has almost doubled in the last 50 years, yet the size of families has dropped over 20%? Pretty amazing.

Another thing that has me disgusted is television. Again, look back 50 years ago and compare that to television of today. Hell, go back 20 years. HUGE difference. Primtime television, any day of the week, has a crime show on where someone is getting raped, killed etc...where detectives are looking for **** or evidence of sexual assault. Wow, talk about entertainment! The one show that really shocked me was aired about 6 months ago. I forget which one it was but it was about 13-14 year olds having huge orgies at their houses when parents weren't home and how some guys killed a girl while gangbanging her. These kids surely looked 13-14, were all half naked, all over each other. This show was on at 9:00 on an over-the-air channel so saying to not watch cable is bogus here. My question is...how is this entertainment? It is, because it's what our society has grown into. Also take a look at the news. I'd say 90% of that is about crime. What is the benefit of learning about all the crime going on? It does nothing positive but strike fear into people. Put on 30 minutes of positive news a day and our society wouldn't watch it. Sick.

Anywho, I can go on and on about this and if I've offended anyone that wasn't my intention. Maybe it will just get you thinking a little bit about how you live your life and if you're too stressed out to make a change. Only in the last year have I been thinking like this and trying to eliminate stress causers and I have noticed a huge improvement in my attitude and overall happiness. Instead of spening a lot of money on audio gear like I used to I spend my free time studying loudspeaker design, building speakers and doing woodworking. I enjoy it immensely and have even turned an overall profit off it, plus I've learned how to build speakers for practically 1/5th retail and really honed in my woodworking skills. Something else I've done recently is sat down and analyzed my finances and how to cut down on spending any way shape or form, and how to invest that money NOW so I can compound interest and retire early. Taking up free hobbies like biking, tennis, rollerblading etc is something my fiancee and I have also recently done. Not only is it great exercise but it's almost free to do and provides as much if not more enjoyment than going out and spending money on something else.

Lastly, my Mom sent me this link a few weeks ago and it really makes sense. Do yourself a favor and read what this guy is saying. You have my word it's worth your time:

http://www.rationalsimplicity.com/introduction.html

F1nut

Great write up!

BTW, No cellphone here either and I get the same reaction. I tell them they are ones with the problem, not me.

jdhdiggs

I think you nailed it on the head, everyone wants "stuff" and very few people are willing to do what's right (raise kids, be nice to other people, volunteer...) than do what gives them the most "stuff" or provides the easiest way out.

I hate the news as well: Why can't you tell the cool stories and not just the bad? No wonder kids think it's ok to hit, hurt, or murder people, they see it on the news as an everyday occurance!

Full Disclosure:
Both my wife and I have a cell phone, but we both work for consulting companies so a lot of the time it's the only way we keep in touch. Neither of us will use it in public or while driving though.

When we do have kids, she will be a stay at home mom.

I agree with the retire early thing. My wife's entire paycheck and about 20% of mine goes into savings/retirement accounts. We will hopefully be able to retire when I'm 45, but will likely push that off until the future youngest starts college. I see other people in my age group who just FINALLY cut the strings from mommy and daddy and they buy the biggest house and nicest car they can afford (with both working) and have $400K in loans while making $60K/year. It just doesn't make sense to me.

Oh well, our country is now a "me first" country. I'll work on changing it over here...

PolkThug

Mazeroth wrote:

Americans seem to work to support a material-driven lifestyle. [/url]

Exactly. No matter how much money I make, I spend it all, then I spend more I don't have (credit). But damn, I've got some nice toys.

Pauly

Just give me my SDA's

unc2701

No cell phone here...

As for TV, what bothers me is the double standard for violence vs sex. How many people have you seen shot in person? Maybe one, two people on the board will have seen that in their whole lives. Ok, how often do you see someone naked? All the time, but you put .25 seconds of Janet Jackson's nipple on TV and everyone completely looses their ****.

Did you know that if a movie uses the word "****" twice, it gets an R rating? One ****= PG-13; two ****= R. Seriously, has it come to that?

faster100

Great write up, we switched things alittle and im a stay at home dad... I get some grief and eyebrow raises from people who think its a womans job.. But it's great, my wife makes 2 -3 times more then i could/did and daycare would take the majority of my pay check so we decided to try this... I sell online for extra money and she works a regular job.. We plan for me to get back to work after my 3 year old go's to daycare next year, In florida they started a free pre -K program so kids can get started for kindergarden... but been doing this for 6 years with good sucess.. Some times its feast or famen(sp) with my sales and money intake but it always seems to smooth out.. only problem is no health insurance... But i have plenty of toys to sell if need be,

The world has changed and will keep changeing, we have to try and adapt to "our" best interest and not the worlds..

and I hate the gas prices also, But we all have to deal with it to a certain extent.. Just another one of those things.

Mike682

Talk about kids and the level of disrespect today. Quick little story:
My mom's friend is a teacher in a junior high (or what is now called middle school). She was writing on the board when one of the students decided he was going to slap her on the a$$. Yep, he went and did it and was immediately sent to the principle's office. But it gets worse, the principle, who is also a female, asks my mom's friend "which cheek did he hit you on?" Her reply was what the hell does it matter??? Regardless, he still did what he did..The kid was switched to a diff class and was subsequently tossed out of the school because he basically did the same thing to another faculty member.

Also, a few of my friends are teachers and they all say that, on the avg, kids are very rude and have an attitude of self-entitlement, like the world owes them something. And if the kid does something wrong, the parents make an excuse or just deny outright that the kid misbehaved. Today, the burden of proof is on the teacher, in contrast to when I was in school. From what I hear this is extremely frustrating for teachers...

Why is it that today, people try to make excuses for their actions instead of actually admitting to doing something wrong and learning from it?

bobman1235

There's a book called The Progress Paradox written by a guy named Greg Easterbrook (he writes the TMQ articles on NFL.com if you've ever read them). It's basically about this exact thing - life gets easier but people are more miserable.

Early B.

"America eats its young."

When you create a society based primarily on selfishness, materialism and consumerism, it will ultimately consume itself. That's what's happening, folks.

Children have no direction or discipline because their parents never grew up. Many adults behave like grown children. We get upset when we don't get our way; we argue with one another; we are selfish with our toys; we call each other names, etc. And as our children mimic our behavior, the cycle continues to spiral downward at a rapid pace.

So if children aren't raised properly, then this country will continue to deteriorate at a very rapid pace (within a couple of generations).

America is fundamentally bankrupt when it comes to socialization. The educational, religious, familial, and economic systems do not teach you what is most valuable in life -- how to raise children, how to manage money, how to get along with others, how to be a better person, how to deal with problems in life, how to find peace and happiness, etc. The fields of philosophy, psychology and sociology are a joke.

The answer to these problems will require revolutionary changes.

aaharvel

interesting Macro viewpoint of society.

hellohello

Early B. wrote:

Children have no direction or discipline because their parents never grew up.
The answer to these problems will require revolutionary changes.

There are a lot of "parents" that arent grown up because, theyre not even adults! Yeah, i know, boys will be boys, girls wil be easy, whatever u say, but the whole society has changed since the 50's its waaay more permissive. An unwed mother way back when was looked down upon, and shunned even as a ****. Now its so common, no one bats an eye. I dunno, maybe im just way too old fashioned for my age.

shack

Each generation wistfully longs for "the good old days" of simpler times. This has been going on for eons. It's quite the romantic notion....and for the most part BS. Back 100 years ago I bet if you ask the average citizen how great they have it...they would talk about how hard they have to work to survive, how hard it is to support and care for their family, remain healthy, find good jobs, etc, etc, etc... The industrial age of the early 1900s was much different that the much less technical society of the early 1800s. Long hours in factories and or city jobs vs the farm/small town lives of their predecessors. Maybe they wished for the past.

When my grandfather was still alive he used to scoff at all of his buddies that "longed for the good old days" and that thought that "society was going to hell in a handbasket". He was a railroad mechanic and raised 9 kids. While he liked the simpler things in life (growing stuff in his garden and squirel and rabbit hunting), he marveled at the technolgical advances and could see the beauty in technology and embraced it. I guarantee if he were alive today he would revel in all the gadgets he could use. I guess I'm a lot like him.

Cell phones. Absoultely great. My kids can stay in touch and get to me and vice versa at a moments notice if they are lost, hurt, stranded, car trouble, in danger, etc. My aging parents know if they need help they can get through to us any time. The benefits far outwieght the miss-uses (my pet peeve is a guy taking a piss next to you at the urinal carrying on a full conversation - is there no sanctuary?).

And as far as our materialistic nature...In 2004, "reported" donations to charitable organizations was $250 billion with $188 billion of that from individuals. This is over and above the aid given by our federal government and the billions of dollars given to those in need directly. No other county comes close to the U.S. in terms of total or amount per capita giving. We are the most generous country in the world PERIOD!

You guys can go back to being farmers....or even better....hunters/gatherers. When you need some help just shoot me a text message...opps sorry....smoke signal or carrier pigeon. I'll see what I can do (when I can find the time).

ND13

Early B. wrote:

When you create a society based primarily on selfishness, materialism and consumerism, it will ultimately consume itself. That's what's happening, folks.

Remember what happened to Rome?????



I have to have a cell phone for business and emergencies, period. I don't use it very often for socializing. I would be left behind, in my business, without a cell phone. Yeah, I know they used to do it without them, but times have changed. If I get a call while on the road, I pull over asap.

Oh and as far as my children's behavior goes, the wife and I get compliments all the time on how well behaved and polite our boys are. It all comes down to the parents. Too many believe that they can leave it up to the schools to raise their kids; "WRONG". I can remember when I was a kid, being raised in the 70's, that the community was very involved with raising kids. If one of the neighborhood kids was being bad, it wasn't tolerated. That kid would be drug by his ear to his parents to be disciplined. But today, parents are afraid to discipline their kids for fear that someone will try to have their kids taken away from them. What kids today need is discipline. I'm not talking about beatings, either. I was spanked by my parents, when warranted. I was never "abused". I don't consider a pop on the ****, "ABUSE". If my folks used a closed fist or struck me on my back or about the head, that would be "ABUSE". It just seems that since corporal punishment has been all but eliminated from the schools and most homes for that matter, the kids have gotten way out of hand. I, IN NO WAY, condone child abuse, so don't take me wrong. I actually have never had to spank my children, more than a slight pop on the bottom with an open hand, far from "ABUSE". As a matter of fact, my oldest, laughs. Just my couple of pennies.

RuSsMaN

I'm quite happy with my indoor plumbing, central heat and air, electrical lights and appliances, and Chevrolet that will do 26mpg on the highway. There is nothing about living 100 years ago that appeals to me, in any way, shape or forum.

As far as consumption, and the downfall of society - I don't care. I'll be LONG gone by the time that happens. For now, I'll continue to 'get mine'. Life is too short, I plan to enjoy it however I see fit.

Does that mean I litter, and drain my used motor oil into the sewer? Of course not, but I'm not going out of my way to plant trees either. All it will take is one big rock to fall out of the sky and the cycle starts over again. Maybe next time with the bees?

Cheers,
Russ

bobman1235

shack and RuSsMaN : +1

shack's right, the grass is always greener. Everyone looks at the 50's as this wonderful time, but look at what really happened, kids were out smoking and drinking and driving and having sex just like today. And parents said that their kids were trouble and had no discipline and all that other crap.

Life's too short, stop worrying about everything so much.

Mike682

Early B. wrote:

"America eats its young."

When you create a society based primarily on selfishness, materialism and consumerism, it will ultimately consume itself. That's what's happening, folks.

Children have no direction or discipline because their parents never grew up. Many adults behave like grown children. We get upset when we don't get our way; we argue with one another; we are selfish with our toys; we call each other names, etc. And as our children mimic our behavior, the cycle continues to spiral downward at a rapid pace.

So if children aren't raised properly, then this country will continue to deteriorate at a very rapid pace (within a couple of generations).

America is fundamentally bankrupt when it comes to socialization. The educational, religious, familial, and economic systems do not teach you what is most valuable in life -- how to raise children, how to manage money, how to get along with others, how to be a better person, how to deal with problems in life, how to find peace and happiness, etc. The fields of philosophy, psychology and sociology are a joke.

The answer to these problems will require revolutionary changes.

The problem with the fields like Psy and Soc is that it is very hard to isolate and measure variables due to something called multiple determinates. In Social/behavioral sciences, it is very hard to isolate and measure a specific variable and prevent other variables from interfering with the results.

Look at the debate of the effect of violence in video games/films on kids. Since every kid that watches a violent event does not commit a violent act, you can't say that one casues the other. There may be a correlation but that does not imply that it's a cause of the violent act. This is why the debate will run on forever. Also look at smoking. Since everyone who smokes does not develop a cancer, the tobacco companies can say that it has not been proved that smoking causes cancer. And since it takes time to develop cancer, they can say that there were other factors (mult deteminates) that caused the cancer over the years.

aaharvel

Russ is right. I'm not going to pack up bare necessities and go live in the wilderness like Grizzly Adams, but I can see the other side of the coin as well.

Society evolves; for the better or worse. But that better or worse is not concrete, they're just points of view. Just live and enjoy it while you can.

AsSiMiLaTeD

I'm taking the sampe position as Russ and Shack...

reeltrouble1

The best way to know your personal future is to invent it, if you dont someone else will do it for you. Just passed my 51st year and its been a quite a wonderful ride so far, guess I have learned a few things along the way and would change some things if I could but you cannot go back.

I see our young LEO cadets everyday. Someone mentioned 'entitlement" I sense that in them, more than other generations relating to the world in terms of how they are the center of their individual universe reacting as events effect their personal space, narcissistic, yes I suppose, they are also quite brave, still holding to their ideals, sounds like my young generation from three or so decades ago, we were going to change the world with peace love and a war machine if need be.

I still get angry about things but let it go easier than I once did. Bouncing Grandbabes on your knee does something for the soul.

RT1

Jstas

Life is what you make it, folks. If you think the quality of your life is so poor then stop talking about it and change it.

Skynut

The "olden days" seem so simple but there were just as many problems back then as now, they were just different. My Grand parrents were all farmers. I used to go back and visit for weeks at a time and work on the farm with my cousins. I used to think it was such a perfect life but as I got older I realized they work hard, all the time. They did not take many vacations, they got up early and worked all day, they went to bed early so they could get up and do it all again the next day. Monday through Monday were all work days.

People paid less for housing but they had less house.

I really like how I live now but I am starting to realize that all the toys I purchase are forcing me to work longer in life. If I do not start to save I may have to work till I am 75 and that would suck.

I think life now is way better than it was in the "good old days" we have internet and computers that we can not live without. We think "how did we get along before this or before that". people have been saying that for ever.
How did we live before computers?
How did we live before cell phones?
How did we live before tractors?
How did we live before cars?
How did we live before fire?
Perhaps you get my message. We think the past was a better time but would not be willing to give up the things we consider necessities to live the way they did back then.

Make the best of what you have now and the way you have to live to be happy.

Mike682

Great book....I am sure would be a re-read for some:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0142000663/qid=1124381027/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/103-2262564-5946233?v=glance&s=books

cfrizz

This isn't so much about having stuff, but about being responsible. Life is short, so yes you better get while the getting is good. However, having said that be responsible as well.

You do not live on this planet alone, you probably have family & what you do, can & will have an impact on them as well.

While you are living your life & enjoying yourself, bear in mind that you are not going to live forever, & that things can change in the blink of an eye. While you are buying all of your toys, buy yourself a prepaid burial contract, or a life insurance policy or have money in the bank that family can get to so that they can bury you.

Your family should not have to bear the financial burden of that because you were too busy buying your toys & enjoying your life.

If you are too stupid or selfish to plan for the future & don't put something away for a rainy day, don't come looking to me for a handout, you should have saved when you had the chance. Nor should your family have to do so, since they have thier own lives to live & responsibilities to handle.

If you are a parent then BE A PARENT! Take responsibility for yourself & your kids. Cause if one of your little monsters slap me on my behind, I'm going to slap them back, right across the face out cold! If you can't teach them manners, either I or someone else will do so the hard way.

And if you're not responsible enough to conduct your own life in such a way that it doesnt' take everyone in your immediate circle down with you, do the world a favor & DON'T HAVE ANY KIDS! We don't need anymore irresponsible people in the world we have enough already.

There is no need to worry if you are a responsible mature adult, because you will have thought about all of these things already & taken care of them & not left them for someone else to take care of.

ND13

Damn Cathy, that's the most passionate post I've seen from you. Something must have touched a nerve.

madmax

I hate cell phones. I hate TV. I like the internet. I like toys. I like working smart and not hard. Long is OK. Overall, I guess I could live out in the middle of nowhere with a phone line, indoor plumbing and a wood stove. Oh yea, and a high class audio shop and a mall close by.
madmax

cfrizz

Yes Noel. This is a very touchy subject for me cause some of it I'm living with right now but also I have seen too many people get taken down through no fault of their own because of other peoples selfishness.

And since reading some other peoples replies, shows that same disregard for others around them, I kinda went off!

ND13

cfrizz wrote:

Yes Noel. This is a very touchy subject for me cause some of it I'm living with right now but also I have seen too many people get taken down through no fault of their own because of other peoples selfishness.

And since reading some other peoples replies, shows that same disregard for others around them, I kinda went off!

Understandable. Seeing that I don't think I was one of "them", I hope , carry on.

VR3

People of the past made the future. And the people of the present make tommorow.

We made life as it is today and we will make tommorow as we see fit.

We can compare the past to the present all we want, but we always have to remember that we change the future. If you don't like how it is currently, get to work - it seems it only takes a few offended people to change the world.

cfrizz

ND13 wrote:

Understandable. Seeing that I don't think I was one of "them", I hope , carry on.

Nope you weren't one of them. I like how you view life, your kids, & your responsibilities!

neomagus00

maybe i can offer a slightly different perspective, as a teenager just beginning to truly move into life on my own...

i think that what has been said here about parents not being parents is generally correct; i've seen many a friend say 'hey mom, i'm going out, i'll be back at midnight'... if i _told_ my mom i was going somewhere, i'd be cleaning the garage for the next three days... if i asked her, though, generally the answer was 'no problem'...

my parents have also tried to teach me to be fiscally responsible... that is, save as much as you can, because you just never know... and i know that they both lived this, that they had everything in their lives taken away without warning and had to build it all back from scratch... today my dad owns his own business and my mom's the CIO of a major national bank... i'll admit that i'm used to having what i need and then some; i drive a nicer car than most, i live in a newer house than most, i sit on a leather couch and watch a bigger tv than most people do; the difference between me and most kids my age is that i know what it takes to get there...

cfrizz - i'm totally with you, if i saw some kid smack a teacher's ****, i'd have something to say about it... again, i was raised to stand up for what you believe in, whatever that may be... one of the core values i try to live by is embodied in the phrase, "grant me the wisdom to accept the things i cannot change, courage to change the things i can, and the wisdom to know the difference"... and i think that as a country, we expect the other people to do the work for us...

as far as tv goes, has anyone watched saturday morning cartoons recently? when i was growing up (a whole ten years ago), tom and jerry was freaking hilarious... now, there is quite literally no show that doesn't revolve around fighting and violence (with the possible exception of SpongeBob, but even that show features a strangely large number of explosions)... on the other hand, i'm a big fan of Law & Order, and its sister show L&O:Special Victims Unit... i enjoy watching the problem-solving process unfold, and the scary part is that their shows are taken straight from reality, which kind of makes you sit up and pay attention...

the news is the same way... the majority of the population doesn't give a rat's **** that 6000 healthy babies were born today in this country, they want to hear about the one iraqi baby that crawled over a landmine... why was the OJ case such a HUGE deal? i have recollections of my neighbor at the time leaving work early just to watch the case on TV...

with all that said, i think i have to disagree with sid... all it takes is a few offended people to make the news, it takes a LOT more to change anything, and people are too lazy for that... they're too lazy to get rid of the laziness, and so the cycle continues... i think that all we can do is lead our lives the way we want to lead them, and hope that we can serve as a leader for other people to follow...