Subs or components

coolfishy101

I've got a 1995 BMW and I am wondering which would improve my sound quality the most. The stock speakers have decent highs, O.K. mids, and horrible lows.

Should I save my money for two 12" momos or buy new speakers running off the head unit? I figure it would cost me around 900$ to do the subs right or 400-500 to get all the stock speakers replaced. Do the Db's produce decent bass without a seperate amp? I listen to rap, rock, and a little classical. Thanks in advance.

thehaens@cox.net

My vote for you, if you are happy with the highs and mids, then go with the sub AND a separate amp......you aren't going to get low bass from mid drivers.......two 12's could be a bit much if you are just looking at complementing your stock head unit, speakers. I use one 12" to complement my wifes stock audio system in her Audi. It sounds good, and doesn't over power the stock head unit, speakers...

scott

MacLeod

First off, you will NEVER get decent bass from a head unit. There just isnt near enough power to generate anything even resembling bass. You will have to get a seperate amp.

If bass is what youre after most then you should invest in some subs with the appropriate amp but you really need to do it right and that means new subs AND components and preferably an aftermarket head unit.

I bet once you put a set of Momo components in there you wouldnt think your OEM system had decent highs anymore.

Take a look at this system and see what you think.
DB6500 components. - $170
DB124DVC sub. - $100
Alpine 50x2 amp. - $130
Alpine 350x1 Class D amp. - $200
Alpine head unit. - $200.

There ya go. A system that will be about 10 times better than stock for $800 (not including installation supplies). Of course you could do a lot better depending on how much you want to spend but I just wanted to give you an idea of what was out there.

coolfishy101

Wow fast replies! The DB6500 is exactly what I was looking at for up front. I've allready got a pioneer DEH-P6700MP HU.

How do the DB subs match up to the Momo's?
I was going to build my own box to fit perfectly in my trunk, take out my back arm rest and point the subs in with a plexiglass window in the trunk. But the db's have a box with 2 subs (slot ported unfortunately) for a good price. I also like subs coming in pairs just because of looks.

I really like the Hifonics amps, my brother had a lot of bad luck with alpine. But the system you showed me looks pretty damn economical and I all ready know polk sounds good.

Is there any entry level starter 4 ch-amps for under 200$ that are of good quality. profile california maybe? thanks

MacLeod

The DB series is Polk's entry level line. As with the Momo line, its the best you can get for the money but the Momo is better. You could get a MM2124DVC and still use it with that amp and it would sound better.

You could also move up to the MMC6500 components which not only sound much better than the DB's but also have a much better crossover. But youd have to move up to a little more powerful amp. This Alpine 40x4 is an excellent amp for $200 and you could bi-amp the 6500's and they would sound great. I owned this amp for 2 years and it makes its power cleanly and never gave me any trouble. Plus it would match your sub amp.

Of course there are other options for amps, Im just using the Alpines as a starting point. It all depends on how much youre wanting to spend.

PoweredByDodge

you could do your whole car for 900 bucks dude... 4 speakers, a sub or two, and two amps to push everything. you just have to shop around. it may not be polk, but it'll do the job. tha'ts my 2 cents.

beardog03

I`ve got a 94 BMW, and I`m hookin up at Crutchfield..

MOMO=any momo purchase over 399 and you get a free 10 sub
db series=buy one pair get the second at half price

until 8/31

so far I`m lookin at the alpine 9851 with MOMO`s and polk amps
gotta love it..!!

coolfishy101

2-MM2124DVC = 280$
2-profile AP1000M =320$
Box = 100$ (roughly)
wires/misc=100$ (roughly)

Total = 800$
But not sure on the profile amps and I can't find a place to demo and compare to alpine. I figure I could upgrade component speakers next year because school is about to start. Or maybe Christmas I wish I could get in on that crutchfield deal now, but I don't think I'll have that much by the end of the month. I plan on building this paycheck by paycheck one component at a time. I'm just planning ahead, first buy coming in 2 weeks.

All of my knowledge is coming from home theater and I know they are 2 different worlds. Thanks for bearing with me :rolleyes: .

neomagus00

actually, the more i find out about home audio, the more i find that the two worlds aren't really that different, after all...

but i like the setup you've chosen, it should serve you quite well. parallel the VCs of a sub, stick it on an amp, repeat, enjoy...

oh, and on the db vented box? it's actually quite remarkable, i like it a lot... don't be dissing vented boxes but the momos will still out-do it...

MacLeod

Home audio is similar but there seem to be a lot of differences as well. First one is price! HA is more expensive than CA. Speakers especially but I do understand since they come with their own box.

PoweredByDodge

home audio requires less power to get "loud" though. you can put 50 watts on a 3 way tower speaker and have it be just as loud as 6 coaxials in a car with 50 watts on each.

MacLeod

Yeah, its a lot easier when you dont have that pesky road or engine noise to overcome!

erobinson

There is no REAL reason to go with two subs over one other than aesthetic reasons or if you REALLY need two get get a proper load on an amp you already have or MUST have. You'll only realize a 3dB gain assuming all else is equal, while losing more of your trunk, and paying more money for a second sub and a larger amp.

That said, you'll gain a larger improvement in SQ with new mid/highs than simply a new sub. All adding sub by itself will do is hide problems in your mids. You want to fix the problem, not cover it up. Before doing anything I'd replace the HU. Next add new speakers AND an external amp. Finally, throw in a sub and monoblock.

MacLeod

erobinson wrote:

There is no REAL reason to go with two subs over one other than aesthetic reasons or if you REALLY need two get get a proper load on an amp you already have or MUST have. You'll only realize a 3dB gain assuming all else is equal, while losing more of your trunk, and paying more money for a second sub and a larger amp.

.

Sure there is a real reason. You can get much more output. Using 2 subs gives you twice the surface area and twice the power. Now if the power is equal (2 subs at 200 watts each vs a single sub at 400 watts) then the difference in output will be small but you double the power AND double the surface area and youre talking a lot more than 3 db!

erobinson

MacLeod wrote:

Sure there is a real reason. You can get much more output. Using 2 subs gives you twice the surface area and twice the power. Now if the power is equal (2 subs at 200 watts each vs a single sub at 400 watts) then the difference in output will be small but you double the power AND double the surface area and youre talking a lot more than 3 db!

By equal power I mean, if a single sub was receiving 100 watts, when you add a second sub, EACH receives 100 watts, for a total of 200. I was saying what you are saying. However, I still believe you are wrong. Doubting myself, I did a quick search and was confirmed in my belief. I'll quote the text, and paste the original URL:

"When one speaker is producing a level of 90 dB, adding a second speaker playing at the same level only increases the overall loudness by 3 dB! (The loudness does not double!). So the two speakers in stereo produce a loudness level of 93 dB"

It's an article from ecoustics.com: http://forum.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/34579/109138.html

As you can see, he said playing at the same level, which implies providing the same power to the new speaker as the old one, like you (and I) said. So, adding a speaker, will yield a 3dB gain. Just like doubling amplifier power. The problem in your thinking is that you can't think of it as adding amplifier power and surface area. If you just added that second speaker and didn't power it, it didn't do you any good. If you add the second speaker and give it the same power as the old one, you are effectively creating an analogous scenario to simply doubling the power of the original speaker and not adding anything. The real reason to add a second speaker would be if you really need to add power, and you are already at the limit of your current speaker.

MacLeod

500 watts into a single sub vs. 250 into 2 subs (500 total) would be no differenece.

500 watts into a single sub vs. 1000 watts into a single sub will be around a 3 db difference.

500 watts into a single sub vs. 500 watts into 2 subs (1000) total would be more than a 3 db gain. It would depend on a few things and it wouldnt be an astounding difference but if simply doubling the power adds 3 db, then doubleing the surface area of the speakers has to add a couple more.

erobinson

I should add one other thing. In the home, I think there are certainly times when adding more than subwoofer is appropriate. But, this is not for the reason of loudness, but of sound distribution, eliminating room nodes, and such.

erobinson

MacLeod wrote:

500 watts into a single sub vs. 250 into 2 subs (500 total) would be no differenece.

500 watts into a single sub vs. 1000 watts into a single sub will be around a 3 db difference.

500 watts into a single sub vs. 500 watts into 2 subs (1000) total would be more than a 3 db gain. It would depend on a few things and it wouldnt be an astounding difference but if simply doubling the power adds 3 db, then doubleing the surface area of the speakers has to add a couple more.

Why does it have to? Yea, I understand from an intuitive perspective that it makes sense. But, it also is contradictory to intuition that if you are pumping 100 watts to your speakers, you would have to up that to 1,000 watts to double the volume, not 200. So, what is your reasoning?

MacLeod

I never said it would double the volume just increase it. Ive never tested nor measured this, its all a guesstimation but from my limited knowledge and experience in audio, doubling the power adds 3 db +/- so logically doubling the power AND doubling the surface area should increase the volume more than 3 db, maybe 5+.

erobinson

MacLeod wrote:

I never said it would double the volume just increase it. Ive never tested nor measured this, its all a guesstimation but from my limited knowledge and experience in audio, doubling the power adds 3 db +/- so logically doubling the power AND doubling the surface area should increase the volume more than 3 db, maybe 5+.

Well, I think we will have to agree to disagree in this instance. All the sources I've found seem to say add a speaker, add 3dB. That's about 20% increase in loudness. So, it's noticeable, just not worth the money and lost trunk space IMO.

coolfishy101

Two subs don't have to work as hard as one sub to produce the same volume (I think). If the sub doesn't have to move as much there is less chance of blowing the woofer and there is a longer life in the sub. As for trunk space, I rarely use it. I'm in high school, I don't need space, I need subs!

PoweredByDodge

erobinson wrote:

All the sources I've found seem to say add a speaker, add 3dB. That's about 20% increase in loudness. So, it's noticeable, just not worth the money and lost trunk space IMO.

3 db's is about a 20-ish % boost, but the added affect is that if presence. the radiation pattern changes dramatically. now you've got more points of origin, and consequently more of the vehicle subjected to the immediate bass waves. this is not to say that 10 subs splattered randomly around a vehicle is a good thing, because it is not, but having two subwoofers, common sensically placed (assuming they are both at full power) will give a richer performance than one of those subs alone. while some may not see 20% as a worthwhile investment, consider this... "why bother getting a 300 watt sub versus a 150 watt sub, it's only 3 db's." ... where do you draw that line? might as well roll around with a 40 watt Urban Audio Road Gear sub in my ride.

erobinson

PoweredByDodge wrote:

3 db's is about a 20-ish % boost, but the added affect is that if presence. the radiation pattern changes dramatically. now you've got more points of origin, and consequently more of the vehicle subjected to the immediate bass waves. this is not to say that 10 subs splattered randomly around a vehicle is a good thing, because it is not, but having two subwoofers, common sensically placed (assuming they are both at full power) will give a richer performance than one of those subs alone. while some may not see 20% as a worthwhile investment, consider this... "why bother getting a 300 watt sub versus a 150 watt sub, it's only 3 db's." ... where do you draw that line? might as well roll around with a 40 watt Urban Audio Road Gear sub in my ride.

In a car I find it difficult to imagine that you'll see much of an improvement by adding a second sub in the same ways you would in your home in a large room. Yes, I see that you have to draw a line. My main point is that of money and space. I don't see it having a good cost/benefit ratio. I think almost everyone only needs one sub in their car, besides SPL competitors and people that just want to show off (that's fine if that's their thing). I mean, if you're looking for SPL, you might as well buy an SPL sub and a high current amp in a large box. But, if like most people, you want to fatten up that bottom end, and on occasion will want to bump a little, one sub and an amp should be ok. Choose the cone diameter and x-max according to your "bumping" needs, and an appropriate amp and be done with it. Anything that sounds really good that is also really loud will cost you a bundle. If you're spending $700 on a sub, I don't think many people would think a 20% increase in volume and losing their entire trunk is worth ANOTHER $700. If you're spending $100 on your sub, have a boat of a car, and don't care about trunk space, fine, go for it. I'm just explaining my reasoning.

The problem is that most people that are buying subs think by going with two subs they will double their volume. And of course most shops aren't going to tell them that they are being foolish. Maybe my main point is education, I dunno.

beardog03

two subs will push more air and presurize the cabin space a bit more...no.?

coolfishy101

What if I wired 2 SVC subs in parallel with this amp http://www.cardomain.com/item/HIFTX1505D to make hookup easier? Will I need to replace anything stock (alternator, battery, etc.)?

neomagus00

that amp is quite powerful, you'd have to be careful with the gains, but no, you wouldn't need to replace anything like the alt... battery would be nice, but not necessary...

erobinson - in the home, say you have a sub sitting in a room, and it's making 90 dB at the moment, and it's being driven with 300 watts. if you stick an identical sub on top of it, and stick an identical amp on that sub, you should get +3 dB - it's exactly the same as doubling the cone area on the single sub. corner-load the complex and you get another 3 dB. you're right on the room nodes thing, too, but that doesn't apply for CA - not that you said it did.

coolfishy is also right - two subs working together to make 90 dB are working LESS than half as hard as a single sub making 90 dB, nonlinearity and all that jazz.

erobinson

neomagus00 wrote:

that amp is quite powerful, you'd have to be careful with the gains, but no, you wouldn't need to replace anything like the alt... battery would be nice, but not necessary...

erobinson - in the home, say you have a sub sitting in a room, and it's making 90 dB at the moment, and it's being driven with 300 watts. if you stick an identical sub on top of it, and stick an identical amp on that sub, you should get +3 dB - it's exactly the same as doubling the cone area on the single sub. corner-load the complex and you get another 3 dB. you're right on the room nodes thing, too, but that doesn't apply for CA - not that you said it did.

coolfishy is also right - two subs working together to make 90 dB are working LESS than half as hard as a single sub making 90 dB, nonlinearity and all that jazz.

I think corner-loading it would not really matter if the other sub is corner loaded as well and producing 90dB. If the other sub was 90dB sitting in the middle of the room, and pretending it's in a virtual anechoic chamber so there is no room gain, then adding a second sub AND corner loading you might receive 6dB instead of 3dB. Certainly noticeable with ~50% loudness increase. I'll post this question on another forum with some guys that have truly amazing audio knowledge (diyaudio.com) and I bet they will clear things up.

neomagus00

no, i meant that the initial case was anechoic, then shove both into a corner, you're right