My first and beginner impressions of my tube pre....

jrlouie

Well, I got the Dared today in the mail. Hooked it up to my existing SS amp with the Lsi15's. Quite cool looking and after listening to it for a couple of hours, I must say I'm quite happy I have a remote It's also cool I can walk around the apartment and turn it up and down without even being in the same room since it is a key-fob type of remote like a car (not infrared). Just personal preference I guess, but I definitely appreciate having it.
I think to do it justice I need to give it some time for full impressions.
But here are my first three...
1. The clarity in comarison to my SS pre-pro is excellent. I can hear things I didn't before. Drum sticks hitting cymbols, plucks on strings, etc.
2. There is dramatically less bass. But now I wonder if in the absence of the bass, is that why I can hear the other things?
3. A lot of music to me now sounds more natural. But as I think this, I try to imagine myself at a concert (which is the most real of all), and I sometimes think that it's missing punch ( maybe I don't have it up loud enough ).

I don't mean to sound negative above, just initial impressions. I do like it. I'm still getting used to it and I'll post more later

Oh yeah, and I'm listening to Jimi right now and his guitar sounds more amazing than ever. Very natural.

jrlouie

couple of pics...

madmax

Bass can be lost if the signal is not driven as "hot" into the amplifier. Whether you have the correct amount is a hard one to answer. The way to tell is to listen to music you can relate to a live performance which is hard for most of us to find. Also, sometimes when you tighten up the bass it sounds like there is less of it. When I first switched to my new pre (which was MUCH better than my previous one) I had no bass. Tubes or not shouldn't cause any major level changes, just the way it is presented. I found that a different CD player took care of the problem in my case. Looks nice!
madmax

Early B.

What you considered as bass prior to the Dared may have simply been noise that didn't belong there in the first place. Takes some getting used to. As you pointed out, you're hearing more detail perhaps because the bass is cleaner. Not surprised. That was my initial experience as well when I first switched to tubes.

jrlouie

One thing to note, is the way I determined I felt less bass. I'm not sure if it is correct or not. Anyway, I have the pre hooked up via the way some recommend with a y-connector going into the amp so that I can have the pre and also my AVR going to the same 2-channel amp.
That being the case, I turned on a song and listened to it via the DVD player to the AVR (over optical) with the AVR in "direct" mode to try and eleminate as much processing as possible, and listened to the song that way. Then mid-song flipped the AVR to an input not being used and then turned up the pre-amp which is receiving the analogue output from the DVD player. I noticed an immediate (and what I deemed as significant) drop is bass.
But like you said, maybe it is tighter bass I'm not use to.

jrlouie

Actually, it is quite easy to test this. I can flip my input on my AVR from "Analog" to "Optical" at any point. I have the optical from the same player going to the AVR in which I have the analog going to the tube pre.
By flipping to analog on the avr, it essential turns off all signal received since there is no "analog" signal going to the avr. This allows me to switch back and forth to test without sending a mixed signal to the amp. I just have to make sure I turn down the pre when using optical.
Even with bass that is sustained, rather than brief thumps or drum hits, the bass is much louder in relation to other instruments and vocals when using the optical even though the AVR is set to direct. I thought if it was just the mudiness, it wouldn't be as prevelant during sustained bass. But it is. So I don't know, maybe it is just cleaner with the tube pre and the bass just decreases that much.
It's to the point now, I get used to the pre. So when I switch to the AVR using optical, the bass sounds over-whelming.

Very interesting.

jrlouie

Okay, after some more tests, I've realized part of my problem is cheapo connectors. I just haven't had the time to get good ones and by removing some non-needed pieces from the mix, everything starts sounding warmer.

Frank Z

How's your placement with respect to the side walls?

BTW...Congrats on the upgrade.

jrlouie

In respect to my side walls, I do have a slightly odd wall I'm against. For my left main, I have about 3 feet from the left wall and almost 2 feet from the back wall. For the right main, again almost 2 feet from the back wall but it is near then protruding part of the wall as you can see in the pick. Beyond that protruding part, it is very far from any wall. On the pic, the little blue squares are my speakers and the large one is the couch.
Anyway, the connectors issue is definitely the culprit. If I make a more straight connection to my amp from the tube pre, the bass is back, and clean. I guess if I want to hook the AVR and tube pre up to the amp, I'm definitely going to need some very nice y-connectors.

Also, I noticed a very interesting thing for those who use y-connectors. By utilizing the y's, if the AVR is already connected to the y, and music is playing, as soon as I connect the tube-pre to the y, a drastic decrease in upper-end detail occurs. It's like it just muffles it. Then if I turn on the tube-pre just with the volume all the way down (because I'm playing via the AVR), the song continues to decrease in the higher frequencies. If I un-hook the tube pre or turn it off, each step increases higher frequencing heard via the AVR. This muffled sound is probably why earlier when I was doing my A/B flipping and comparing, that the tube-pre sound like it was missing bass. In comparison it sounded that way, but that was only because the AVR connection was getting really muffled.

So definitely with this y-connector setup, one connection affects the other one significantly, even though both units aren't turned on, etc.

jrlouie

Okay, I've determined y-connectors suck

I found one higher-quality y laying around so I decided to determine if the other low-quality ones were the culprit. Nope.

Using the higher quality y just for the left channel, even if my AVR is completely turned off, if I'm playing music through the tube-pre straight from the CD and simply plug the other input from the AVR into the Y (even though the AVR is turned off), the music dramatically changes. I'm talking, very dramatically. That's bizarre to me.

So, I'm feeling it is not a matter of the Y. I just shouldn't use them. That's not what I really wanted but I'll just have to make due. Maybe I'll have to buy more electronics

I'll just have to do the other recommended way in which the mains are always channeled through the tube pre, direct from the CDP and from the AVR for home theatre.

reeltrouble1

Sounds like you are enjoying the new piece and upgrading etc. Keep in mind that a pre with a true theater pass will solve future problems like this one.

RT1