Upgraditis, what would you do?

jrlouie

Okay, I've got upgraditis, but I'm having problems deciding what my next logical step is. Here's the setup and what I'm considering.
90% music (cd, dvd concerts, and sacd)
5% satellite TV
5% movies

rig 1 (living room)
Lsi15's,LsiC,Lsi7's
Onkyo TX-DS797 (pre-pro and rear duty)
Outlaw M200 (center)
Crest Audio Vs650 (mains, 325 watts/channel)
PSW450
Pioneer (CD/DVD/SACD/DVD-Audio)

rig 2 (bedroom)
NHT SB3's
Technics Integrated (optional Kenwood stereo receiver)
Kenwood CDP
mostly low-level listening before bed

Considering...

Stepping into tubes since I love music (maybe a tube pre-amp). If this, pre-amp on rig 1 or 2? And based upon rig, not sure what's the best way to hook this up.

PSW450 is a weak element so I thought about a better sub. But my apartment is small and I don't watch a lot of movies. Plus I might be moving. Not sure what I'd do with the 450 until I move.

Solid 5 channel pre-pro and power amp to improve uniformity of living room setup. Not sure what I'd do with M200 afterwards.

tecmo04

take mpre stress of the lsi's and send the lows to a better sub! but heck, im a young punk who loves bass, what do i know...

McLoki

sub is by far the weak link in your system. I would go with the sub.

For the next upgrade (after the sub) - If you stay with multi-channel then the amp - preamp - if you go 2 channel only, get the tubes.

Michael

Willow

I thought of saying the sub as well then noticed you don't know what your new place will be like. Unless you get yourself a great one now and won't have to upgrade it later then I would say the sub. That being said if you love music then I would lean on getting your tubes.

2+2

I didn't vote b/c I think you should simply ADD a good CD player....I was very surprised at how much variation in sound quality comes from different CD players. Since music is your thing (mine too), I would get a good player....your sub is probably fine for most music, except for may be club type music...

Early B.

Your sub is OK if you're doing 90% music. I'd definitely go tube pre, no question about it, especially if most of your music listening is in 2-channel mode. Not sure how you'd integrate it within your existing setup on rig #1, but someone here can tell you. If you go with tubes on rig #2, I'd get a tube integrated amp and upgrade the CDP as well. Which rig do you use the most for critical music listening?

jrlouie

Thanks for the comments/tips. A couple of notes...

For music and TV, often times I find myself setting the Onkyo to direct because I like the warmth of the Pioneer by itself. The Onkyo just makes it a little harsh. The sub isn't really needed too much for music.

Sometimes I turn on the sub during TV because the channels have nearly no bass and I like to beef it up a little. With

movies, the sub just fattens up the frequencies the Lsi15's can already output and it is too overwhelming so I often just turn the sub off. I like the output of the Lsi15's regarding bass-volume during Dolby Digital stuff like movies.

Music is my passion and probably 90% of my listening.

Yeah, I don't know where I'll be living next. I'd like to purchase a house or something. Really have no idea on room size.

Interesting to hear the suggestion of a new CDP over anything else, for music. Do you think the DAC's in my Pioneer DV-563A are that bad?

Thanks a lot for your suggestions.

jrlouie

Early,
For critical listening I'd say rig #1.

I'd like to use my SB3's more, but all I have to put them in is my bedroom for now (and that's usually for background music). Maybe some day I'll have an additional room I can put them in.

Quite often when listening to music on rig #1, I'll just do direct mode which is just the 2 channels and no sub. Unless it is a DVD concert, then I crank on the Dolby Digital and enjoy.

BrentMcGhee

def go for the new sub... that is the clear weak link right now... everything else seems pretty good

2+2

The Music Hall (and brother Onix CD) players as well as couple modles from Cambridge Audio and NAD all appear to be recommended here if you are on a strict budget. Never heard the Pioneer that you have.....

cfrizz

For rig #1, I would definately get a separate CD player. Your pioneer isn't bad, but it is geared more for movies with music taking a backseat.

I a/b cd's on my Pioneer DVD/Rotel cd players. The Rotel came out on top! & at the time I was using my 15 yr old cd player.

F1nut

Interesting that so many think you need a sub when you have LSi15's and use the system 90% for music. Pffffft on that idea, get a new source first as that IS the weak link. Look at a used Jolida JD100 cdp, it's hard to beat in that price range. Next, get a tube pre amp.

marker

^ +1, except I would reverse the order, I'd highly recommend a Jolida 1501RC, 100 watt x 2 hybrid intergrated amp (tube pre-amp section, mosfet solid state power amp section with torodial transformer) for that set of NHT SB3, and then get the Jolida CD player. That is a magical combination!

jrlouie

Keep in mind, my system as most probably are, is an ongoing upgrade
So that Vs650 SS amp (pro-audio), could be moved to the SB3's later if I were to ever buy a new 5-channel amp for rig #1. In that case I wouldn't need an integrated. Seems like rig #2 always gets the leftovers from rig #1.
I very much like to think ahead and make logical decisions that will benefit the future as well.
I'm leaning towards holding off on the sub until I'm moved into a more permanent location and buy a suitable sub at that time.
I'm still baffled between the CDP and tube-pre debate. I'm not sure what's the best choice there. Both options point to tubes (tube CDP or pre), which I have never listened to. I do have that seperate Kenwood CDP in the bedroom that I could use on rig #1, but it's fairly old. I'm guessing the Pioneer sounds just as good and isn't really your whole point on the CDP upgrade (i.e. - I need a new class of CDP if I go that route).

This is great feedback. Thanks so much. Keep it coming.

Early B.

jrlouie wrote:

I'm leaning towards holding off on the sub until I'm moved into a more permanent location and buy a suitable sub at that time.
I'm still baffled between the CDP and tube-pre debate. I'm not sure what's the best choice there. Both options point to tubes (tube CDP or pre), which I have never listened to.

Yeah, good decision would be to hold up on the sub. As you said, you don't really use a sub for music anyway.

Go with the tube pre first, then if you like the tube sound, upgrade the CD player. If you're gonna have tubes somewhere in the mix, it ought to be the pre.

F1nut

Mark, I agree that would be a great set up for rig #2, but it was my impression he was more interested in upgrading rig #1 first. I also agree with Early that a tube pre will eventually have a greater overall impact than a tube cdp, but Louie's current cdp is so bad that he won't realize the full potential of the pre amp with the Pioneer cdp. Garbage in, garbage out.

marker

True Jesse, and I can see your point. It's just that I feel like the tube pre-amp section would make a bigger overall impact in the sound, but a chain is only as strong as it's weakest link, and it's never good if that's the very first one. I guess either or would work first just as well, but the Jolida 100 watt hybrid integrated is somewhat cheaper on average than the CD player, either new or used, and goes with the SB3 like peanut butter and jelly.

I had to switch the JD 1501RC for the NAD S300 integrated with the SB3 pair cause the NAD didn't have pre-outs (the ONLY one they carry that doesn't, go figure!), and I needed the pre-outs on the Jolida for those 2 new NHT SW10II subs I told you about. I believe the SB3 sounds just about as good, if not maybe even a little better with the Jolida hybrid than it did the NAD Silver Series!

He stated he wanted to start listening to the SB3 set more, and with this, I can guarantee you he would!

How do the LSi sound on tubes? I haven't heard them matched that way personally, but I do know that they are a very laid back speaker, whereas the SB3 tweeter is a little more on the crisper side and goes very well with tubes.

F1nut

All good points Mark. The only real solution is to get both a new cdp and pre amp.

I haven't heard the 15's with a tube pre amp either, just SS gear. I did find them a bit sloppy/boomy in the lower regions.

marker

I agree about the boomy, sloppy bass on the LSi15. I would take the LSi9 over the LSi15, especially considering cost, and if cost weren't an object, the LSi25 over the LSi15.

Of course, one could always add dedicated bass amps like the NHT SA-2:
http://www.nhthifi.com/products/sa-2.html to the LSi15 to have better control over it's bass.

jrlouie

To comment on a few things mentioned...

I like the point (if it is true) that the tube pre will have the greatest impact. If so, I can work the tube CDP later to fix that garbage-in-garbage-out problem

I would eventually like to upgrade rig #2 I guess, but I just don't have too much drive at the time being since I can only use it in my bedroom, which will get just mostly background music use.

Would a tube pre make the bass sloppier on the 15's?

2+2

I found that the "sloppiness" can be eliminated based on certain combo of amp and interconnects. Rotel 1075 sucked big time in sloppy bass in the 15s where as 1080 handles the woofers quite nicely, especially with Kimbre Tonik interconnects....

organ

There is a way to integrate a pre to your HT set up.

1. Connect L&R pre outs from your Onkyo to the new pre amp. We'll use AUX input as an example. Connect your CD player to the new pre amp.
2. Connect new pre amp to your amplifier.

When you're ready to watch multichannel movies, select AUX on the new pre amp, raise the volume on the pre amp to the 12 o clock position and let the Onkyo control the master volume.

What you're doing is bypassing the new pre amp when you're doing multichannel. REMEMBER to lower the volume on the pre amp when you're ready to listen to a CD.

You want to know how the LSi sound on tubes...

I own a pair of LSi9 and have tried running them tube pre>tube amp and tube pre>ss amp. At first, the all tube combo really impressed with the smoothness but after several months of this I noticed it was lacking dynamics. The LSi are too power hungry.

Now, nothing beats a tube pre with ss amp for the LSi. There's nothing sloppy about the sound. In fact, the two tubed pre amps I own make my ss pres sound sloppy. The tubes are warmer and have more punch. Here's a link on my post about this very same issue... http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27015&highlight=love+lsi9

Maurice

jrlouie

Ironically, the percentages on the poll don't reflect it but I'm leaning towards either the tube-pre, or tube CDP based upon our dialogue.
organ, i was just thinking about the tube-pre integration. i agree with your solution. i came up with another idea to eliminate the need to mess with the volume control on the pre at any time, which might be wrong but what do you think....
1. hook zone 2 L/R pre-outs to pre-amp in (zone 2 is constant, not affected by volume). You can set zone 2 to a different input than the one listening to. Therefore would that allow me to set the zone 2 (tube-pre) to use input from the CDP via the AVR, yet the output of the tube-pre could be listened to on zone 1 which would be something like video 3, 4, or 5 going to the amp.
2. hook pre-amp out to audio in on AVR (such as video 3 or 4 or 5, etc). almost like a loop.
3. set used AVR input to direct to eleminate the possibility of affecting the sound
4. now the volume of the pre-amp could just always be set to 12 o clock and never touched

Is the input signal expected by an AVR similar to the output signal of a tube-pre?
Would I blow stuff up if I did this
Is there a need to worry about the AVR effecting the signal this way (even though it is set to direct)?

Just seems like it would allow for multiple types of input into the tube-pre if I wanted. Plus volume would still be controlled via one remote. And using direct, I'd hope it wouldn't effect the sound at all.

Dennis Gardner

I run my HK7200 pre-out into an input on my tube pre, then to my amp. This is not the best of sound, but adequate for HT, and still leaves direct inputs on the preamp for TT and CDP. You just have to get a tube pre with enough inputs to avoid constant switching. 3 or 4 is great!

On your bedroom system, a tube integrated, with remote control is the way to go. No need for big watts, just pure sound.

Enjoy,

DG

organ

JR,
What you're saying is, you want the receiver to control the volume for both HT and 2ch? I wouldn't do that. There's no point in getting a tubed pre if you're going to run the signal through the receiver first. Even if you set it to 'direct', you're still adding more wires and making the signal go through a lot more paths before reaching the amp. You're making the receiver control your gain by doing this. What you want to do is get rid of your receiver from the signal path of your music.

What you want with 2ch is to keep it as simple as possible. With the set up you mentioned, you're only making it more complicated. What you want is the tubed pre to control the gain for your super important 2ch stuff. Don't let any of this pass through a receiver. My best advice to you if you're worried about forgetting to lower the volume for 2ch is to place a credit card or some sort of card against the volume or input selector knob on the pre after setting it to the 12 o clock position. This way, you'll always remember to lower it because you'll have to look at your pre amp before switching inputs.

Another thing you can do is buy a good quality Y-connector with 2 females and one male. Connect the male to your amplifier's input and you have one pair of female for the receiver and another pair for the CD player. Go to www.audioquest.com click on accessories, click on audio/video adaptors and look at item M-22-F/HRD.

Maurice

jrlouie

Okay, thanks for the tip organ. I kind of thought of that but I wasn't sure if that was a primary issue.

Dennis Gardner

I concur with Maurice, you do lower the quality of sound with 2 preamps running together. I do it this way simply to use 1 amp for my mains. There are other ways of getting there, but they all involve either connections or switches. The route I have chosen doesn't degrade my HK 7200 any, but the tube buffer isn't as much of an addition to the sound of my HK as you would think.

2 channel deserves the simplest path you can get.

organ

Dennis,
Missed your post there. Glad to hear the set up is working out for you. I plan to integrate a HT into my 2ch system and I'm still trying to figure out what kind of set up would be best without having to spend a lot of cash.

Option one would be like yours. I'll have to buy a matching Klipsch center and surrounds and a receiver with pre outs.

Option two would be small bookshelfs (Monitor30) all around and a receiver. If I take this route, I'll be using brakets to hang all the speakers on the wall.

Maurice

Dennis Gardner

organ wrote:

I plan to integrate a HT into my 2ch system and I'm still trying to figure out what kind of set up would be best

It can be done, without alot of sacrifice as long as you approach it from the direction you are beginning. Adding HT capabilities to a solid 2 channel rig will be way more satisfying than trying to get great 2 channel sound out of HT equipment. I found out the hard way with lots of wasted $$$.

I like what I have found now, and the tube pre and Odyssey Stratos amp really brought out the best in my SDAs. Having the projector and HK for multi channel is just a bonus to the great 2 ch. sound I found.

Cheers,

DG

jrlouie

The only thing that bothers me is adding that pre-amp volume control to the mains. So when I'd be watching movies, I'd always worry about the speaker levels. If I didn't have the pre-amp volume knob always at the exact correct location, the mains might be higher or lower than the center.
What kind of degradation would you think is possible with some good y-connectors, like organ suggested?
I think that would be ideal if the sq is not degraded. You could run the primary outs from you AVR straight to your amp and if your pre had multiple inputs, use them and run the pre to your amp. Or if you pre did not have multiple inputs, run the zone 2 from the AVR to your pre and then straight to your amp via the y-connects. Or better yet, if your pre only has one input and you only have one source (a single CDP), you're okay too

Dennis Gardner

The Y-Connector is the best method, just don't skimp on quality.