Frame of reference....

TroyD

Stick with me here, I know I'm reaching but the more I get into this whole analog/digital thing....I'm trying to reconcile the whole thing in my mind.

Ok, I think a LOT of it boils down (in terms of preference of format) comes down to what you use a a frame of reference.

One thing, however, that I think bears repeating is that regardless of format, there are good and bad recordings...

Back on point.....I think that if you were 'raised' on digital and you listen to vinyl, you evaluate it in terms of what you would digital medium. For example, surface noise, it's a given with vinyl although as I'm finding, there are ways to all but eliminate it but it's still there to some extent. Some can't get past that because, on digital that particular anomaly doesn't exist.

On the other side of the coin, one example, percussion. One of the glorious things about analog, IMO (and those of others) is how 'natural' percussion is. Analog folks poo-poo digital because percussion on digital is different (note I didn't say 'right' or 'wrong' ?). Again, they are trying to compare apples and oranges.

I don't know what I'm really getting at here except that what I'm trying to do is evaluate each medium on it's own merits. IE, the more I listen to vinyl, the more I don't hear most surface noise. Could be that I just accept that it's there and filter it out, you know?

I kinda feel like John Belushi in Animal House here, 'was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?'

The Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?

Forget it, he's rolling

BDT

dragon1952

Originally posted by TroyD
IE, the more I listen to vinyl, the more I don't hear most surface noise. Could be that I just accept that it's there and filter it out, you know? BDT

Nah! You're just getting older Troy. The older you get the worse your hearing gets. You just turned 35....if you don't think you hear it now just wait another 20 years! Just one of the benefits of old age.

TroyD

Could be, mon frere, could be!

BDT

Polkersince85

I tend to agree with you on the "frame of reference". I grew up in the 50's listening to cabinet record players, AM radio, and the live piano (at home and church). I have seen FM, Stereo, Color TV, 8-tracks, cassettes, CD's, MP3's ,etc. all come on board. My frame of reference is still the live piano and the presence it gives. IMO, a good Turntable setup somehow gives the resonance of "live". Live has "noise".

shack

I must be the antithesis of your theory. I grew up on vinyl with pretty decent gear and don't want to go back.

Maybe it is the oposite of what you are saying. As someone who is part of the digital generation (I assume that would be you Troy - at least during your adult listening years), as you are searching for something "better" in the world of audio you dabble in high rez and but it is still digital. As you continue to look for something better than digital you have "moved up" to vinyl. Whether it is truely better or not may not be the deciding factor as much as it is different. Who knows....I too am rambling...

disneyjoe7

Originally posted by TroyD

On the other side of the coin, one example, percussion. One of the glorious things about analog, IMO (and those of others) is how 'natural' percussion is. Analog folks poo-poo digital because percussion on digital is different (note I didn't say 'right' or 'wrong' ?). Again, they are trying to compare apples and oranges.

Troy,

I'm not much older then you 40 (well 41 on July 21st) I not really a fan of Vinyl (not sure why I grow up on Vinyl ) You seem to like vinyl so my question is if it sounds different what is the must lifelike?

Early B.

I agree with the frame of reference thing. But dammit, everything in audio goes back to personal preference. For instance, I grew up on vinyl, but I prefer not to hear any noise in my music -- it annoys me. Others may dig it because it sounds "nostalgic" or "real" or "live" or whatever. I generally don't even enjoy listening to redbook CD recordings prior to around 1990, including some of the digitally remastered old stuff. So in terms of analog or digital, it doesn't matter; clarity is a major issue for me.

Frank Z

Troy's been nipping the Mantis Juice again....

F1nut

Frank.......waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

I grew up on vinyl and am radio. They both have one thing in common, noise. I want nothing to do with either of them these days.

George Grand

I grew up on E. 17th St. between "O" and "P" and vinyl is not for me. Unless I can't find the cd, then I'll play records.


George Grand (of the Jersey Grands)

disneyjoe7

Thank GOD...

Jesse, Frank, George I thought I was the only one :cool:

George Grand

You are the only one. We just don't happen to like vinyl either.


George Grand (of the Jersey Grands)

ND13

I bought my first cd player in 1983 and it was outrageuosly expensive, for what it was, but have never looked back. I haven't purchased a cassette since that very day, I have though purchased a few LPs, since at the time I still had my father's old Philips tt. It's since disappeared????? I would probably consider purchasing a TT again at some point, but from what I can gather, to do that right, so as to have as clear(noiseless) of a playback as possible, it can get extremely expensive. It just seems that too many of you guys are achieving, near as possible, analog sound with nice transports and DACs and they are virtually noiseless.

madmax

There is not much difference between a $5K CD player and a $5K turntable. There is a huge difference between a $1K CD player and a $1K turntable. The TT doesen't stand a chance.
madmax

heiney9

I’m “older” like BDT and was raised, so to speak, on analog. I always had a pre-amp with a great phono section and always spent more on the cartridge than most would spend at the time. I had several Nakamichi cassette decks including a Dragon that I would record Lp’s to cassette on for pure convenience and to preserve the vinyl. My turntables were always middle road models, nothing esoteric, but solid performers.

A few years back I decided to transfer some of my older favorites that were on cassette but I hadn’t yet bought on cd. I did this with a Nak deck through my computer using Cool Edit Pro software, and a very modest sound card. The results were actually very good. I recorded from cassette to cd some Rush, Deep Purple, and Jimi Hendrix to name a few. Recently I compared these recordings to the CD versions I now own.

The Deep Purple “Made In Japan” recording from LP was an excellent transfer. Very open and very quite. Back then I always made a cassette copy the very first time I played the vinyl. So then I started doing A/B comparisons of the CD release and the LP to CD transfer I did. I know this isn’t very scientific and I’ve added an extra step in the chain and a nicer sound card might perform better. It was nice to revisit these analog recordings and reminisce a little bit. The experiment is more fun than the outcome sometimes!

My whole point is analog is just a different sound. I still prefer the dynamics of digital, especially the micro-dynamics. The noise floor on digital is so much better. I think both have trade-offs and it comes down to what you are willing to give up in each format.

However, and I can’t stress this enough, a poor recording is a poor recording, no matter what format you use. Also beware the term “REMASTERED” many many times remastered is not better. It’s a gimmick to sell more copies. Read up about remastered titles to see if they are actually worth it.

H9

madmax

So, you copied from lp to cassette then to CD through your sound card and you are using those CD's vs purchased CD's to compare analog vs digital sound?

I just don't know what to say. :eek:

madmax

heiney9

Originally posted by madmax
So, you copied from lp to cassette then to CD through your sound card and you are using those CD's vs purchased CD's to compare analog vs digital sound?

I just don't know what to say. :eek:

madmax

Yes I did……not on purpose mind you. I just started transferring bootleg tapes to cdr and tried a few old cassettes I had. It was an experiment. My comments were from my experiences with actual vinyl. Actually you’d be surprised how good those cdr’s sounded. As good as the real vinyl on a T.T., probably not. I’ve also worked with vinyl transfer from a T.T. thru a phono pre-amp and used Cool Edit Pro to de-click the tracks and that worked out very well. Very time intensive however.

Take it easy MadMax;) it’s not as bad as it sounds. Didn’t mean to give the impression I was comparing analog to digital using this method ONLY. Just simply sharing an experiment

H9

dkg999

Every once in a while I get out the B&O turntable and throw on one of the few remaining LP's. There is a certain open and airy sound to analog that I like. On the other hand, the maintenance required with LP's, the storage hassles, and the ever present potential for snap, crackle, and pop .......... nope don't want to go back. I like CD's.

steveinaz

I'm in the same camp as Shack. Grew up on analog/LP but loved the articulation, tight bass and background silence of digital. Sometime in 1984 I sold my Teac reel to reel (X2000RBL) and my them Yamaha (PF-1000?) belt drive turntable and made the transition to digital with Sony's first CD player.

Digital can definitely be a turn-off with bad recordings, but good recordings are wonderful. Plus with recent D/A improvements digital edges closer everyday to analog sound. I think anyone who runs a digital front-end MUST get a good quality external DAC to really appreciate the format--it should be automatic with your first player/transport purchase.

ND13

Are there any reasonably priced tube DACs out there? They do make tube DACs don't they?

heiney9

Originally posted by steveinaz
I'm in the same camp as Shack. Grew up on analog/LP but loved the articulation, tight bass and background silence of digital. Sometime in 1984 I sold my Teac reel to reel (X2000RBL) and my them Yamaha (PF-1000?) belt drive turntable and made the transition to digital with Sony's first CD player.

Digital can definitely be a turn-off with bad recordings, but good recordings are wonderful. Plus with recent D/A improvements digital edges closer everyday to analog sound. I think anyone who runs a digital front-end MUST get a good quality external DAC to really appreciate the format--it should be automatic with your first player/transport purchase.

Again, as I mentioned in another thread awhile back, analog can sound very very good. When I was selling audio I was always amazed at the CES (Consumer Electronics Show) how great an analog system could sound in several of the high-end rooms. But the investment, in not only the equipment; several thousand just to begin, and the investment in quality vinyl pressings just don’t make it worthwhile, IMO anymore. It’s very hard, if not impossible to find high quality vinyl pressings anymore. Most companies have gone out of business. Anything to do with Pop recordings is going to be subject to the same crappy production values/recording quality as the current CD’s.

Analog will always have a limited dynamic range of about 40-50db and the signal to noise ratio will always be well below/above? (the higher the #, the better) that of digital. Channel separation will always be well below that of digital as well. It just seems that there are too many limitations to analog these days. Over coming those limitations is very costly and you still are at the mercy of the recording engineer, the artist, and the pressing plant (which is huge, IMO).

As I said before both formats have their limitations/problems/shortcomings, etc. It’s just one’s willingness to overlook those, in either format. I agree w/ Steveinaz, a good transport and DAC does wonders for digital and it moves closer to analog than ever in some areas. It will never be like analog because both digital and analog have different shortcomings. If you haven’t tried a good outboard DAC you don’t know what you are missing, again IMO.

H9

madmax

I grew up with records as well. I too used to get them out for a quick listen every 7 years or so. Each time it was the same old excitement met with an "awe ****, yea, thats why they suck" realization.

Not so any more. Now I pull out the vinyl, run it through the vacuum cleaner, clean the needle and remove the debris, mount the disc on the platter with the clamp, run a carbon fiber brush over the record, remove the static with an anti static gun, place the needle in the groove and wonder how on earth it can sound so magical! Of course the preamp and amplifier is warmed up, the TT bearing has a good supply of Mobil One oil, the platter has been turning for an hour and all the mechanical settings are in check.

I just don't get why people think CD's are so convienient.

madmax

heiney9

Originally posted by madmax
I grew up with records as well. I too used to get them out for a quick listen every 7 years or so. Each time it was the same old excitement met with an "awe ****, yea, thats why they suck" realization.

Not so any more. Now I pull out the vinyl, run it through the vacuum cleaner, clean the needle and remove the debris, mount the disc on the platter with the clamp, run a carbon fiber brush over the record, remove the static with an anti static gun, place the needle in the groove and wonder how on earth it can sound so magical! Of course the preamp and amplifier is warmed up, the TT bearing has a good supply of Mobil One oil, the platter has been turning for an hour and all the mechanical settings are in check.

I just don't get why people think CD's are so convienient.

madmax

LOL

I wonder if all that prep were done to play a cd if any sonic improvements would result?

H9

cfrizz

Originally posted by madmax
I grew up with records as well. I too used to get them out for a quick listen every 7 years or so. Each time it was the same old excitement met with an "awe ****, yea, thats why they suck" realization.

Not so any more. Now I pull out the vinyl, run it through the vacuum cleaner, clean the needle and remove the debris, mount the disc on the platter with the clamp, run a carbon fiber brush over the record, remove the static with an anti static gun, place the needle in the groove and wonder how on earth it can sound so magical! Of course the preamp and amplifier is warmed up, the TT bearing has a good supply of Mobil One oil, the platter has been turning for an hour and all the mechanical settings are in check.

I just don't get why people think CD's are so convienient.

madmax

ROFLMAO!!!!:D

I will never buy another record. I pulled out my original Jesus Christ Super Star album one day to hear it again. After trying to hear the music through all the hiss, static, crackle & other miscellaneous junk, I turned it off, jumped online & ordered a beautiful remastered cd of it!

I'm afraid to play any of my other albums, it will be too expensive for me even to contemplate!

dragon1952

Everytime I touch my turntable I end up doing something stupid (and costly) like breaking the stylus
I finally said the heck with it!

W WALDECKER

tt vs cd? i understand where the tt guys are coming from but there is a lot of maintainence and drama involved in analog playback and the way i look at it we all live in a rat race and anything i can do to simplify my life allows me to enjoy it more. my redbook cd player is a very high end symphonic line unit and it pretty much sounds like a very good record player without the crackles and pops and i feel the same way about tubes i understand where the tube guys are coming from but i prefer a very clean not sterile just on the warm side of neutral type of amplification and i put a tube buffer between my preamp and monoblocks to add a just a touch of tubes to a already wonderful sounding system. just my opinion.........thanks

dragon1952

Originally posted by W WALDECKER
my redbook cd player is a very high end symphonic line unit and it pretty much sounds like a very good record player without the crackles and pops....

Like this one?

http://store.cuteelectro.com/sydvplsd.html

must be the Virtual Surround Sound

TroyD

Hey, I'm not knocking digital. I like digital. I also don't think that analog is for everyone, either.

IF you don't have a decent TT and clean records, you simply aren't going to enjoy LP's. LP's need to be squeaky clean, all that crap and dust in the grooves, there is your surface noise. However, to say that there is no noise on CD's is not correct. Grab a CD made from an analog master, tape hiss. It's there on a LOT of CD's. Again, back to the old 'it's what I'm used to so I dismiss it' or 'I put up with it to enjoy what is there' arguments.

Now, if it were ultimate convenience we were after, why not ditch all this stuff and play hook up our computers or ipods or what have you??

BDT

dragon1952

Originally posted by TroyD

Now, if it were ultimate convenience we were after, why not ditch all this stuff and play hook up our computers or ipods or what have you??
BDT

Ummm...because people my age can't figure them out?

TroyD

Another good point.

Hey, I'm just trying to start a good, intelligent discussion.....seems that the forum has been lacking them for awhile.

BDT

RuSsMaN

I don't have crackles and pops on Vinyl I've bought new, or well kept albums I've bought used.

A table, properly setup, and a clean, well pressed record, it's as dark as a cd. Surface noise is not a given with this media, it's a result of user error. (mishandling, improper weighting, cheap needles/stylus, etc etc etc)

Granted, Vinyl is a ****. But even with surface noise on some used records, the good grossly outweighs the bad, imo. That, and well, I've heard TONS of stuff on vinyl that you just can't find on cd. GREAT peices of music, that would be all but forgotten if I didn't have a table setup - THAT my audio friends, is reason enough to at least setup a gruntball vinyl rig.

It's not overall better, or worse. It's different, and worth listening to.

Cheers,
Russ