How large/small and crossovers work together

BrentMcGhee

Ok, so here is my question. On my receiver (STR-DA5ES) when i set a speaker to large it send the full range signal to that speaker and the setting for the crossover for that speakers is greyed out and you can not change it becasue there is no need to. When it is set to small, it is now user changable and can be set anywhere from 40hz-200hz in 5hz steps. So not only can i tell each individual speaker whether it is large or small and if they are small set there crossovers independandlty from one another, there is also then another option for setting the sub's crossover. Now here is where my confusion begins to come in. I have a couple of questions, i hope you guys can bear with me and help me out.

1. Lets say i have all of my speakers set to small. My front l/r and my center set to a crossover of 80hz and my surrounds set to a crossover of 120hz and my lfe set to 80hz. does that mean that if a signal lower than 120hz is set to go to the surrounds it would then be routed to the sub or would it be routed to the fronts because it is above 80hz and then to the sub when it gets below 80hz?

2.now same exact setup exept the sub is now set to 60hz. What exatly is happening here? I am really trying to grasp thepath that all of these crossovers take

3. Now lets say that all of my speakers are set to large and my lfe is set to 60hz. what exatly is that 60hz crossover doing. Does that mean that all of the speakers are getting a full range signal minus everything below 60hz, or that all speakers are getting a full range signal and the sub is getting everything below 60hz as well.

I think that made sense, if it doesnt please tell me how i can be more specific for as this has been driving me crazy for a long time now.

MaxxuM

Number one, it depends.

Number two, the sub will play what it is sent at whatever freq you are cutting it off at. Think of it as being its own channel (the 1 in 5.1 or 7.1) and whatever the studio wants it to play it will play + what it is being sent via other crossovers in your system. There are other ways to wire your sub but I personally am not a fan of many of them. If you like I could get into it, but its complex and requires a lot of pro/con discussion.

Number three, no, once you set all yours speakers to large they are receiving the full freq range and it will be up to the speakers own crossovers to set the limits (if they are just small satellites and not bookshelf speakers I would recommend never setting them to large because they could be damaged at higher volumes). So, basically, there will be no bass management you could control save for the crossover of your sub itself.

Now, I know you probably have many more questions so here is a link that will help you immensely I believe.

http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/setup/loudspeakers/bassmanagementbasics.php

BrentMcGhee

I will definitely check out that link, but unfortunately I am at work right now so I am very limited to what I can access online, that link being one of them.

So anyway….. you kind of confirmed what I already thought but I was just trying to get some opinions from other people. However I still don’t think I fully understand exactly how all of the crossovers work together.

I know that there really is no such thing as an lfe crossover even though it is labeled that because when a soundtrack has an lfe channel in it (i.e. the .1 of 5.1, 6.1 or 7.1) that is a completely un altered signal as it gets passed right to the receiver and out to the sub, what ever is on the lfe track from the medium will be played through the sub in your system (if you have one) and if you don’t have one then the receiver will send the lfe channel to whichever speakers you designate as large in your system setup. That part I am pretty sure about, if I am wrong someone please correct me.

But confusion still lies with what really is the lfe crossover for then. What signal is that taking and where is it sending it. Because if all speakers that are large just get a full signal and all speakers that are small you adjust there crossover independently of one another (i.e. a surround speaker set to small with a crossover of 120hz, anything set to go to the surround channel that is lower that the 120hz will go to the sub, and a front speaker set to large will never send anything to the sub). So why really would you have to set this other (lfe) crossover that apparently affects all speakers as a whole. The only thing I can think of and I believe I may be way off with this, but it may be a reverse crossover. Whereas if it is set to say 60hz then the receiver will look at the lfe channel it is receiving and send everything below 60hz on that lfe channel to the sub and everything above 60hz on that lfe channel to your other large speakers??????? Am I right about that I just shooting in the dark?

I would like to think that I am not the only one that is confused about this…….

MaxxuM

LOL… You’re going to give yourself a migraine. All manipulable crossovers are for is management – that’s it. Subs have them so they can be meshed with your main speakers and receivers have them because they were meant to integrate a variety of speakers. Some speakers don’t have crossovers and some do, some subs are powered and some are not, some of us will use 2 channels while others will use 7.1 and the manufactures have to give the customers enough flexibility to use what we want. So, some crossovers will be redundant (and therefore not used) while others will take on roles we want the too. It’s all about flexibility and I think you are trying to find a reason to use all crossovers or find a purpose for all of them within a single system and that may not be possible.

And you’re right – if you set your speakers to large they will not send that info (below the crossover point) to the LFE channel therefore that sound will never be heard. It is that and the lack of control over your system that confuses me why people insist their 5.1-7.1 systems sound better set to large. I’m guessing they just don’t know the potential of their system and don’t want to bother fixing acoustics, placing speakers correctly or calibrating their systems right – or at worst, have really poor speakers. In any case, that link will help you out. Just don’t over think it, its really just as straight forward as it seems. You already got the concept.

Mjr7531

Originally posted by MaxxuM
It is that and the lack of control over your system that confuses me why people insist their 5.1-7.1 systems sound better set to large. I’m guessing they just don’t know the potential of their system and don’t want to bother fixing acoustics, placing speakers correctly or calibrating their systems right – or at worst, have really poor speakers.

...Or sometimes we just want to play the soundtrack "As the director intended."

MaxxuM

Originally posted by Mjr7531
...Or sometimes we just want to play the soundtrack "As the director intended."

Most directors/sound editors *meant* for their work to be viewed and heard in a theater environment calibrated to a certain standard (say THX for example) and acoustically designed for a near flat response. All we can do as home users is to try to mimic those standards on a much smaller scale to get the best sound we can. I ‘wish’ I could afford such a setup but I doubt my wife would allow it in the living room even if I could

Mjr7531

Perhaps, but let's just face it, some people like how their rig sounds when their speakers are on large and not contributing to the LFE. Some of us don't want the theater sound, and who says it is? To perfectly calibrate a system, you need Speakers that go 20 to 20. Period. All the bass management does is shift the signal that was intended for one channel for another, which isn't exactly pure in my opinion. But something else, this own Theater in our house, we can do as we wish, and if it's right to whom is setting it up, well then, it is right, maybe not to you or me, but it is to them.

IMHO, when it comes down to it, this hobby is hardly about specs and calibration, while it may be a big part, it's about how you like how it sounds. If it's calibrated perfectly to all specs, dispersion patterns and other misc. acoustical requirements, what good is it if you don't like how it sounds?

Some people don't like a "Perfectly" Calibrated system, and if they don't, kudos to them; they're doing what they want, not what others are telling them.
Now I'm not saying that people who like the perfectly calibrated system are wrong either. I'm saying that when it comes down to it, it's what the person likes that matters, not what some person high up in THX or Dolby Labs says.

Originally posted by MaxxuM
It is that and the lack of control over your system that confuses me why people insist their 5.1-7.1 systems sound better set to large.

Because it does. That's a good enough reason, you can't change what they think, if they like, they like it. There's no point in kicking em' into the ground and spitting on em' for it. Who ever it is, (myself included, typically run my speakers both on full or small, it really just depends on whether I have the time and interest in tweaking my system on any given day) they have their reasons, the speakers sounded fuller to me, and I like it. Am I losing control over my system? Am I not realizing the potential of my system? No. I've tried both ways and I like the speakers on full. They didn't go spinning out of control, nor did I lose half the signal intended to play. I also like them on small, the movies are typically more powerful to me with the sub handling more, who's to say who's right? I feel both modes are just as good, but I'm not going to impose this on anyone, because it's in my opinion. Is this a crime?

To summarize this jumble of thoughts... You can't always take what others say for granted, you honestly truly have to try it yourself with with an unbiased mindset and find out what you truly like. And when you do find what you like, keep the condescending criticisms to yourself, advice is much more helpful.

[/RANT]

Edit: I completely forgot to do what first intended to do.
Brent, try running some tones through your system, if you have a calibration disk, it would be most helpful you can run test tones through your system to make sure it's going where it should be, after that, it's all up to your ears and the matter between them,
Happy Listening,
Matt

MaxxuM

Mjr7531, PM sent.

Polkitup2

Here's my take on all of this. My front's are RTi150s and my Sub is an SVS PB12 plus/2. My source is a DENON 3910 from which I handle my bass management and which I run as multi-channel input into my AVR. After reading this thread I though that maybe I was missing something by having my fronts set to large. So last night I played with large, small and crossover settings and found that with my setup, I like my fronts set to large.

MaxxuM

Polkitup, that setup is one of the few that I would recommend setting speakers to large – but maybe not for the reason you may be thinking. But first, I would like to say I’ve listened to an identical setup and was impressed with the sound; nice speakers all around

The problem is not setting them to small, but the logistics of getting good integration into most typical homes. With all that dynamic sound, particularly at the low end you would have to go through considerable trouble to make them integrate well with a sub, even the SVS and it not sound boomy/muddy wherever the cutoff may be (say 40Hz with a typical AVR). Unless they were in a large room there would have to be some acoustical treatment to make them integrate well (i.e. bass traps). In short, it would be a great big headache. However, this does not mean it is impossible and the benefits not worth while. Its just how much you are interested (or obsessed) with the setup and calibration of a system. In your case I would say it probably isn’t worth it, but if you were seriously interested in trying to integrate them, had the time and was a stickler for details then you would have to start with an in-depth calibration. One night is hardly enough time for a good calibration. You would have to go through many tones and calibration tests before finding that point where your sub begins to ‘rule’ the sound and your mains begin to loose their punch (probably somewhere in the 30’s or 40’s Hz). Then, armed with that knowledge you would have to find your rooms acoustical holes and plug them (treatments). No use calibrating your system if your room is going to murder certain frequencies. Once you have an acoustically good room you could start calibrating your system with the right tools (test CD/DVD & testing equipment, NOT a RS meter) and perhaps after a few weeks of tweaking and fiddling with the finer points you most likely would have a better sounding system. How much better would be up for debate because after all that money and work it may not seem so much better.