More thoughts on vinyl

TroyD

As you may or may not know....I've been listening to a BUNCH of vinyl this lately. This morning I'm playing a couple of LP's (one Merc LP, one RCA LS) of marches and have noted a couple of things that differs on LP's and CD.

One thing that strikes me (again, I may be FOS) but it seems that LP's seem to include a BUNCH more high frequency energy than CD's typically do. Now I realize that listening to marches, that is certainly the case, but it's something I've noticed accross the board.

Kettle drums. On vinyl a kettle drum has real WEIGHT and depth. For lack of a better term, it just seems more natural. It's not really how DEEP it goes, per se. I dunno what I'm reaching for here but hopefully someone gets it.

BDT

DAGLJAM6

Troy,
I get "it" and can elaborate when you clear your PM box please.

TroyD

PM away, ****.

BDT

RuSsMaN

No Box.

TroyD

I hear you, I'm working on it. The box ain't here and it ain't there....fedex is trying to find it.

BDT

RuSsMaN

I'm just hackin' on ya, thought it would be funny here.

TroyD

Oh, I know, I'm just aggravated with fedex, broham.

I mean, how the eff do you lose a box, TWICE??

BDT

disneyjoe7

No Box, Kettle Drums.....


What the H$ll is going on here? What is this a PM in public?


You're killing me

madmax

Troy,
I think I know what you are talking about with the high frequency energy. I too have been listening to my table a lot these past few weeks. I found a collection of lp's at an antique store for $1 each. About 50 of them. So far 30 have been played. All were NM or NM-. A lot of them were classical. I felt pretty lucky on this particular find because I don't know a whole lot about classical and to find this much stuff in this condition, you know it had to be a collector who probably knew his music. Many had sleeves which had turned yellow.

I got one that Russman would drool over. He sent me a CD of a performance of it. I can't for the life of me remember the name right now but the master was recorded on 35mm film. They did everything possible to get the best recording including mic'ing different sections with different mics. They used the mics which caught the best of each type of instrument. Crap, it was called Valkarlys or something like that.

madmax

DAGLJAM6

There's something to that "more natural" description. Just seems that with "real" stringed instruments ,horns, drums, etc. LPs shine . Hell some of the best violin i've ever heard was on vinyl.
I think also that the vinyl medium captures the heart of the music, the very best or sweet spot of the sound spectrum, much like non ss amplification. With tubes you know that there is a slight rolloff/slight loss of detail but what is presented is shear sweetness. Seems harder to capture huge multi-layered sound as well IMO and that's where the limitations with the format come into play. Yeah, big classical music comes off pretty well but the weight off the bottom end is less "puffed up" on analog, especially older high production value recordings.
All I know is I like vinyl with certain styles of music Classical,Blues, Jazz,and Folk but with Rock music give me a remastered CD or SACD i'm not looking for sweetness there and would rather it be huge.(I'm talkin' Led Zep, Hendrix, etc.)

TroyD

MM,

Ride of the Valkyries by Wagner.....very nice.

When looking for classical, the labels that I look for are Mercury Living Presence, RCA Living Stereo, Angel (EMI) and Columbia Masterworks. Deustche Grammophone is another one but the ones that I have the quality is hit or miss. The Merc's, IMO, being the holy grail. I have 20 Merc's in VG to NM shape and I absolutely LOVE them. If you run across them pick 'em up, hell for a dollar and some time cleaning them, what do you really have to lose?

I guess there is a three dimensional quality to a well recorded LP that's hard to capture on CD. Again, I'm not saying analog is the end all be all as I am, primarily, a digital person but the more I get into this, the more I dig vinyl and can certainly appreciate the resurgence it is enjoying.

BDT

unc2701

Like madmax, I love the fact that I've picked up several hundred records over the past year for an average layout of about 50 cents each. Sometimes I get home and they sound like **** even after a thorough cleaning, but BFD, I lose 50 cents. My vinyl rig needs a lot more work before they're gonna sound better than CD's but it still captures something that you just don't get in a digital recording.

Morningstar

Had a customer over at my house the other day. We listened to a variety of Lp's from Bill Berry "For Duke ", Eva Cassidy " Songbird ", Tracy Chapman, Dead Can Dance,etc...
He was impressed at the air and just how wide the soundstage was with instrument tone being very realistic.
Then we turned to CD's and the magic was gone. Soundstage between the speakers all the life sucked out of the music.

The sad part of this story is the next generation will never know what their missing with their MP3, computer , digital only life that they have grown up with.
The industry needs to somehow get together and inform the latest generation of what they are missing.


Peace,
Bill

madmax

A turntable which is set up well with cost no (or little) object can sound a whole lot better than a CD or SACD. My setup has some problems and only sounds almost as good as my CD player. I compared my CD player directly against a really good turntable setup and the turntable flat out blew it away. In the next year or two I guess I'm going to have to throw more money at it to see if I can get it to do what I want. No guarentee either way. THAT IS THE PROBLEM WITH TURNTABLES!

madmax

Morningstar

Not so sure there, as my office system consist of an old Pioneer Belt drive turntable with an Ortofon MC 15 Super MC .35mv cart running into our MiniMax phono preamp with a pair of vintage University cornerhorns. I think I picked up the old Pioneer for about $100 bucks and the MCSuper 15 for about $175, ok the preamp is what probably brings it altogether but I would think that this combo would trounce any cd /SACD out there. I really believe the turntable although upgrading is usually better , I believe the phono pre would probably be where you should look first. Of coursed I'm biased a little but I would still say this no matter what I did for a living.

2+2

Stop IT! I cant hear you!! Lalalalallal.....I am Not buying a record player and collecting records for my classical collection........must....resist........

Morningstar

2+2,

Not to worry, if you like listening to your music at 50% of what it is capable of.


You had me in stiches

Early B.

I know nothing about turntables whatsoever and don't own a single LP (yet). However, this thread intrigues me. Better than CD, you say? Hmmm. I'm wondering if I should even venture down that path.

How do you determine the quality of a turntable and cartridge? What price range are we talking about?

Dennis Gardner

TTs will run about the same as cd players. You can find $100 vintage tables that require around 2-3 times that much in tweaks that will sound adequate. New tables that give decent sound start around $300.

Better sound costs alot more than that, but just as with CDs, if your system isn't refined enough to know the difference, your throwing $$$ away.

You can spend $10,000 on a cartridge alone if you want. The sky is truly the limit with TTs.:eek:

unc2701

Technics makes the best DJ turntables- if you're looking for something that'll be working in 30 years no matter how much you abuse it, then get a technics 1200. The stanton STR8-100 (and above) spec out just as good as the technics and seem to have just a good build quality (again this is a DJ turntable).

For more of an audiophile approach, 4 digit dual TT's are a good place to start (ie 1229) and can be had fairly cheap on ebay. Rega is a bit rarer, pricier and better (but can be found used in the sub $500's)... Pro-ject has a great reputation and their bottom end can compete with some $1500 TT's. Musicians friend carries these:
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/g=home/search/detail/base_pid/807600/

They even come with a MM cart. I used that one for about a month and loved it (but returned it since there was no room at the woman's and I didn't trust the roommates with it)

http://www.sumikoaudio.net/ carries the full Pro-ject range.

If you're lucky you might happen across a used Linn- they start around $500-$700. If you can find one for that, it's probably worth it.

Bang & Olufsen kinda suck, but they sure do look pretty... and you could do worse for a starter TT. I'm sure I've missed plenty of good TT's to start on, but those are the ones I've owned/used extensively (except for Linn, but I have had a little quality time with one)...

Anyone else have some favorites?

Morningstar

Have you visited this place yet. Just a wealth of information about vinyl and analog playback.
http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/vinyl/bbs.html


do a search there for anything you are interested in and there will be more then enough info to occupy your hours for days on end.

F1nut

Originally posted by Morningstar
I think I picked up the old Pioneer for about $100 bucks and the MCSuper 15 for about $175, ok the preamp is what probably brings it altogether but I would think that this combo would trounce any cd /SACD out there.

You willing to bet on that, I am.

Look, I'm not knocking vinyl, but that's a silly statement to make. Although I find vinyl rubs me the wrong way I do recognize that there are excellent recordings.........on all formats and the recording, not the format, is what makes the biggest difference.

dorokusai

Vinyl is good for one thing, resale.

George Grand

Amen brother. Just like Bose. Don't want them around the house, but I know a lot of people who'll pay top dollar to have them around THEIR house.

George Grand (of the Jersey Grands)

Spawndn72

The best thing about vinyl is the hunt for records in good shape. Flea markets, yard sales, thrift stores, that kind of thing. You can pick up some really nice vinyl really cheap. However if you don't like to hunt for stuff then you are going to spend much more on audiophile remastered vinyl.

I have a Dual 704 and I think it is a decent table. I do have a crap cartridge for the moment but plan on upgrading soon. The sound is not quite as good as with my pioneer cd player, but it is very close.

2+2

Originally posted by Zero
I'm doing what I can to salvage my dads modestly sized record collection. Tons of great classic albums... my mother is wanting them gone (ie; pawned).

This may be an opportunity to sweet talk him into contributing to a nice turn table and cartridge.... hmmm

Sounds like a plan that I can use.....I will drop hints to my dad that I want my dad's classical vinyl collection....along with his Mac 240 and record player when he eventually downgrades....dont know what that player is....whew! I thought I was going to have to spend more money.....

shack

Originally posted by Zero
I'm doing what I can to salvage my dads modestly sized record collection. Tons of great classic albums... my mother is wanting them gone (ie; pawned).

This may be an opportunity to sweet talk him into contributing to a nice turn table and cartridge.... hmmm

How about you offer to BUY them from him?

I know...birthright...inheritance and all that...but give them what a pawn shop would and be done with it.:D

TroyD

Agree w/F1....good and bad recordings on any format.

I think that vinyl playback CAN be better than digital. CAN being the operative phrase. Under average conditions, digital is better. It takes a lot of time, effort and bucks to get good results with analog.

BDT

Morningstar

ok, I may have been a little over zealous at the claim of only hearing half your systems potential. Didn't mean to be taken so literally.:)
I have to agree with the original post by TroyD that his records do something that digital does not and that is believable texture and weight. When digital plays I always feel like I know I'm listening to my stereo. Vinyl lets me escape this reality. Troy had hoped someone "gets it". I do . Hopefully others will also

shack

Originally posted by Morningstar
Troy had hoped someone "gets it".

I had it...and let it go...

TroyD

Oh, I fully realize that many don't care for vinyl and that's cool with me. Many can't get past surface noise and it's something that I realize is tough to get by. I just think that there IS something there and that everyone should at least be exposed to it.

BDT