Small speakers, Large room.

McLoki

I have read a number of review on LSi home theater systems. Most of them state something like this about the LSi7's

LSi7's could be used as the primary speakers in a small-room music system or as the front and rear channels in a less ambitious home-theater system.

While my ego will recover from the "Less Ambitious" comment, my real question centers around the "in a small room" comment.

With home theater it is assumed that a sub will be present, so bass from the main speakers is less important. (unless your main speakers can put out bass as deep and at the same levels as your sub)

The LSi7's should put out sound close to 107-108db at 150watts (their top power rating) well above reference level. Putting aside any tower/small speaker preferences, in a large room if they both will play above reference level, is there any reason to pick one over the other? Why do so many reviews of small speakers say they should be used in small spaces. (and large speakers to fill large spaces) If you play below reference level (or if a small speaker plays louder than you normally will listen) is there any reason that it will not work as well as a tower in a large room?

Well any opinions?

Michael

Dennis Gardner

With a sub, you are correct.

Without, there simply bookshelf speakers and don't do large room, full range well.

There simply is no replacement for displacement, that is why you use your SVS isn't it?

gregure

A few reasons why bigger speakers for front is a good idea:

1. In a large room especially, the speaker needs to push more air to fill the room with sound. Bigger speakers do this better than little ones. Little speakers must be pushed harder than big ones to produce room filling sound.

2. Larger speakers unquestionably have a more dynamic sound and a larger sound field, especially floor standing speakers, although in the LSi case, 9's would be plenty with an SVS to back them up. This is good for two-channel especially, as the added drivers give the music a more open sound.

3. The mains and center receive the most information in DVD mixes. They should ideally be larger than your rears, as they are more important to the sound field, and will add a wider, more open sound than smaller speakers.

Just a few thoughts. These are, of course, opinions, but I am always a proponent for floor standing for mains/two channel music, and I would never consider a whole system comprised of the same smaller bookshelf speaker. So, given my views, you can take my advice for what it is.

louthewiz

I used to have all sattelite speakers in my 8x24 living room and I felt it neede a bit more sound ,now I have a set of infinity towers and it made a dramatic difference in sound quality and dynamics so since then I feel that a "bigger" front sound stage will beat the pants off of a sub/sat system.:)

Early B.

Why do so many reviews of small speakers say they should be used in small spaces. (and large speakers to fill large spaces) If you play below reference level (or if a small speaker plays louder than you normally will listen) is there any reason that it will not work as well as a tower in a large room?

Loudness is not the issue. As mentioned before, it's about filling the room with sound. A small speaker will struggle to fill a large room with sound because it is not designed to do so. You will get a fuller sound in a large room from a large speaker.

SCompRacer

Originally posted by McLoki


Well any opinions?

Michael

Where you at in Central IL?

Come on up and listen to a pair of LC265i in-walls in a 14' x 22' room with a SVS PB12-Plus sub. The 265's are basically LSi9's without the box, but I did build volume enclosures for them. Driven by a *gasp* Denon 3805. They do a pretty good job in two channel stereo and surround. Not as good as the SRS 2's upstairs, of course, but I don't have that kind of room down there with the furniture we have.

I had LC65i's, think LSi7's, for R & L fronts at first but I wasn't happy with them. Oh, and a 7 channel amp is down the road a bit for the lower level.

McLoki

Originally posted by SCompRacer
Where you at in Central IL?

Come on up and listen to a pair of LC265i in-walls in a 14' x 22' room with a SVS PB12-Plus sub. The 265's are basically LSi9's without the box, but I did build volume enclosures for them. Driven by a *gasp* Denon 3805. They do a pretty good job in two channel stereo and surround. Not as good as the SRS 2's upstairs, of course, but I don't have that kind of room down there with the furniture we have.

I had LC65i's, think LSi7's, for R & L fronts at first but I wasn't happy with them. Oh, and a 7 channel amp is down the road a bit for the lower level.

I am located in Washington. (just across the river from Peoria if you are looking at a map)

Thanks for the offer of the audition. I may take you up on it later this summer. The inwalls would have saved alot of stress and worked pretty well in my situation. I really do like the sound I am getting from my LSi7's, but a wife supported upgrade is something that you should never just pass on...

Michael

SCompRacer

Originally posted by McLoki

Thanks for the offer of the audition. I may take you up on it later this summer.
Michael

Just let me know when you want to come up. And if it isn't too much trouble, bring that killer amp with you....:D

Jstas

To try and get a better visualization of a small speaker in a large room, think of yourself in one of three places.

First, your living room. You can speak at a reasonable level and be heard across the room at a reasonable level. You can shout with minimal effort and easily over-power the acoustics of the room. This is because of not only your ability to move a good deal of air but because you get what is called cabin, room or enclosure gain. This is a boost in SPL because the sound bounces off of the walls of the room long before it loses oomph and reinforces the impact of the sound coming from your mouth.

Second, you are in a large church. Sure, it echos and is boomy but, unless the person is within a certain distance from you, they cannot easily discern your speech. This because the walls are far away from the source and you cannot move enough air fast enough to over come the resistance of the air in the church. Then you get an echo because the sound has slowed down enough or travelled far enough before being reflected that it is out of sync with what is coming from your mouth.

Third, you are in any empty stadium like the Superdome. You can yell as loud as you want and the guy standing on the other side of the field will have a very difficult time hearing anything you are saying.

So what? Well, we didn't change the size of the driver, i.e. you. What we did change was the size of the room you were trying to speak in. It goes the same way for the speaker. Smaller speakers in a large room have a difficult time moving enough air to fill that room and utilize the room gain effectivly. I have heard itty bitty speakers like Bose cubes in large, high ceiling rooms and they get a good deal of reverb and bass is muddy and washed out. Put them in a dinky college kid's dorm room and they will sound like a million bucks...well, maybe not, it is Bose afterall.

I hope that illustrates the "fills the room" concept better. I had a hard time trying to figure out what people were saying when saying that myself. One way to compensate for the room size and small speakers is a subwoofer. If you do near-field listening (up close) at lower levels, you should be fine. You might experience a drop in room gain though and while you do not normally listen above your reference level, you may find yourself pushing your system past the reference level just to get acceptable performance like you are used to with your current reference level and room set up. This gets bad because it can drive the amp into clipping and we all know what happens when that occurs.

Schris22

you have a good way of explaining things...jstas

Chris

P.S - Astrodome > Superdome

SCompRacer

Originally posted by Jstas
If you do near-field listening (up close) at lower levels, you should be fine.

Good explanation. Does near-field have a technical measurement? For example, I'm 1/3 of the room width from the speakers, so is that considered near-field, or would I have to be closer? Or is it sitting closer than the distance between the speakers?

Jstas

I don't know if there is an accepted measurement. I know people who consider less than 12 feet near field and others who consider less than 4 feet near field. That's a pretty large margin of error there. I wouldn't even know where to guage it because it seems that room size, speaker size and distance between the two speakers would all factor into it being near field or not.

Dennis Gardner

I would consider a Honda Civic nearfield!:D

Pressurizing a large room is way more difficult than a car so you will never hear about anyone getting 150+ dbs from their HT even though they have 6-8 channels of power. It takes so much more to pressurize a large room, thats why big speaks rule!

McLoki

Jstas - Thanks for the detailed reply. It does help in explain what you mean by larger speakers filling the room with sound. I have a HUGE space to fill with sound. While the distances from the speakers to listening position average about 13', I actually have over 5500 cubic feet of space I need to fill to pressurize the room. (and no, I currenly cant do it with one svs 25-31cs+).

Your reply was well thought out and descriptive for general terms, but I am still having problems associating it with my situation. Here is the list....

LSiC Center channel.
LSi7 front and rear channels.
SVS 25-31cs+ subwoofer.

Front stage and sub are run from my cinepro amp. (500wpc into 4 ohms, 1100wpc peaks - 120amps peak to peak current (per channel - all channels driven))

Rear speakers are being run from my onkyo 777AVR. (2 channels of my amp are in for repair)

All channels are currently set to small and crossing over to the SVS at 80hz.

I am not worried about driving my amp into clipping, I am sure the woofers would blow apart before I started hitting the limits of my amp.

I know that I will bottom my sub (at about 112 decibles - uncorrected at seating position) before I start hearing any distortion from my LSi7's.

I have no desire to play movies any louder than I currently can, but wonder if I would be better served to work on the bass (multiple subs or an IB sub of some sort) or get larger speakers. Would either option get me closer to pressurizing my room? I don't know how anything short of 4 Avalanche 18's in an IB setup will stand a chance to pressurize my space. Will changing the front LSi7s for LSi15's change the sound dramatically?

I did some testing with LSi15's when I purchased my LSi7's and could not tell a large difference between the sound of them when running at normal volume levels, both crossed over to the sub at 80hz. (this was tested for HT, not straight music applications.)

Well, what do ya think? Does your logic still hold for my situation, or do you think it is more of a generalization that does not hold for me?

Thanks to all of you for your responses to this question - I am learning and understanding alot more, I am just having trouble applying what I am learning..... (story of my life. )

Michael

gregure

I would imagine that adding two more amplified woofers into the equation would certainly add bass to your room. Not sure why you didn't hear a difference during the demo, but there certainly is a difference between the LSi 15 and LSi7.
Plus, as great as SVS is, their cylinders do not hit as hard as their boxes. I would recommend looking into a second sub, possibly a PB 12 Ultra, and placing your cylinder in the rear of the room. Two subs in that large room would probably go further toward your goal than upgrading to the LSi 15's.

McLoki

Originally posted by gregure
Not sure why you didn't hear a difference during the demo, but there certainly is a difference between the LSi 15 and LSi7.

I don't know why either, but for HT uses with both speakers set to small and crossed over at 80hz (the only option for a crossover with my AVR) they sounded close to identical. (both speakers powered by my amp) With a different processor I would have crossed over the 15's at 40 or 60hz and I am sure that would have changed my impressions. It was tested in my house with my equipment for one evening. (switching back and forth between the 15's and 7's) with various movies.

I still like the look of the 15's and would rather have them, but the sound was so close I could not justify the additional expense. (got the 7's for $350 - the 15's would have been significantly more)

Michael