Small or Large

Integra

Hi guys! I was just wondering how you guys run your RT 1000 or RT 2000 front mains for movies. Do you set to "small" or "large" in the receiver menu? I know some people say that you should set all speakers to small for home theater and let the subwoofer handle all the low bass. I have read some technical advice that states : " If the center and surround speakers are capable of bass response down to at least 70Hz, set them to large and if the front mains are capable of bass response down to at least 30-40Hz, set them to large" In my opinion, why have a full-range speaker with good bass response like the RT 1000 or RT 2000 set to small when it is capable of bass response down to 20-25Hz? Seems like a waste of a good speaker to me! Just looking for some other opinions from people who own the same speakers as I do: RT 1000 (fronts); CS 245 (center); B&W DM610 (surrounds) PSW 140 (sub)

PETERNG

I say set your L & R front speakers to large, center to small and surround speakers to small, next upgrade: replace the PSW 140 to PSW 650, move the 140 to rear channels, upgrade the CS245 to CS400, change all settings to large then put on the Matrix DVD and...enjoy....:cool:

scottvamp

Ya. I totally agree. Put the rt1000's on large but the rest small, until and if u upgrade. If not maybe a larger sub to compensate.LATER

Aaron

Originally posted by PETERNG
upgrade: replace the PSW 140 to PSW 650, move the 140 to rear channels, upgrade the CS245 to CS400, change all settings to large then put on the Matrix DVD and...enjoy....:cool:

I found that you get a bit more dynamic impact by setting the CS400 to small and letting the sub handle that bass. That center speaker can't really produce anything lower than 50Hz., so why bother making it try? With the center set to small you should also increase your midrange clarity since the mid/woofers aren't trying to reproduce deep bass. This will also increase your max SPL since you're not wasting amplifier power on that bass.

Why would you set your rears to large if you moved the PSW140 sub to the rear? The sub has no affect on whether you set the rear surrounds to large or small.

Aaron

RuSsMaN

...I think PETERNG is talking about running the rears through the sub.

You have to remember, Peterng is the one with a sub in EVERY position, powered towers, powered center, front and rear subs......(talk about a phasing nightmare).

I personally don't think he needs to upgrade anything, his setup sounds like a winner to me. The only thing I would consider is maybe getting Polk rears, for seemless dvd-audio, and 5.1.

The B&W's he has would make great, small-room (office/bedroom) music only speakers. If you ever want to sell them, drop me a line.

Cheers,
Russ

Aaron

I was also thinking that perhaps he meant running the rears through the sub, but that ain't cool. Line-level connections are the way to go.

Aaron

PETERNG

Technically, you are correct to set the CS400 as small, in reality, in some cases it may not work well for some environments, also depend on what other speakers you have for the front L/R. I've seen in some cases the CS400 can handle the bass better than a lot of center speakers available outhere in the market, may be you need to try it both ways, audit the results then follows your heart and decide what best for the setting.
As you move the sub to the rear , you have upgraded the rear speakers to full range speakers(no need to discuss here how you connect them, I think most of us know how to do that), all low frequencies now go through and produce by the sub, all mid and high freq go to the speakers, set these speakers at large will get the full benefits of what DD and DTS are intended for, try it , you see, I've seen the impact of the bass rear surround channels on the Matrix DVD, it really sounds incredible. As for DVD audio, the setting on your receiver does not control the setting anyway (bass management on receiver does not work for DVD-A), so all speakers must be full range, some DVD players do provide the options for the set up, most of them did not work...
Yes , I am a firm believer in all full range speakers for the systems, and yes it has been a nightmare, but the sun always came out after the rain...
At least, the above setting the I recommended works for me and I know it will works for others, try it both ways to see how it work for you (if you intend to upgrade your systems, the current systems is fine, only if you want a better systems).

TrappedUnder Ice

I have my RT1000i's set to large...Center of cs400 to small and my fx300i's to small. Ive tried with the center to large and did not like it as when set to small... but that is personal taste. Even in the cs400 manual..polk mentions to try it both ways...have fun with it

my sub is a velo ct150..does all lows extremely well

Aaron

Originally posted by PETERNG
Technically, you are correct to set the CS400 as small, in reality, in some cases it may not work well for some environments, also depend on what other speakers you have for the front L/R.

In what kind of enviornment might it not work well? If anything, the room acoustics might make the bass boomy so you'd want to set the center to small anyway. I don't see how your L&R spekers have anything to do with this setting. The only reason I can see that you'd ever want to set the CS400 to large would be if you are using seperate amps to drive your speakers (no sissy receiver power) and preouting your center channel to your subwoofer.

I've seen in some cases the CS400 can handle the bass better than a lot of center speakers available outhere in the market, may be you need to try it both ways, audit the results then follows your heart and decide what best for the setting.

"Follows your heart"? What the hell are you talking about? I usually follow my ears and logical reasoning. We're only talking about Polk speakers here anyway.

As you move the sub to the rear , you have upgraded the rear speakers to full range speakers, all low frequencies now go through and produce by the sub, all mid and high freq go to the speakers, set these speakers at large will get the full benefits of what DD and DTS are intended for, try it , you see, I've seen the impact of the bass rear surround channels on the Matrix DVD, it really sounds incredible.

Eh, you could do it that way. I still hate using speaker level connections. I'd have to experiment, but I think you'd get the same performance, if not a little better, by just setting the rears to small and hooking both subs to the sub preouts. You're still getting the rear channel bass that way, plus you're using your better sub to help out in that department.

As for DVD audio, the setting on your receiver does not control the setting anyway (bass management on receiver does not work for DVD-A), so all speakers must be full range, some DVD players do provide the options for the set up, most of them did not work...At least, the above setting the I recommended works for me and I know t t will work for others, try it both ways to see how it work for you (if you intend to upgrade your systems) [/B]

Well that just screws it all up now, doesn't it?

Aaron

RuSsMaN

'I can see clearly now, the rain has gone.......'

R

PETERNG

1. Just what Trap... mentioned: a matter of personal taste.
2. You can follow your ears, I trust my heart, beside our hearts control ears, eyes....plus it has feelings, without it, you dead..::D
3. Just want to point out a hole in current technology, beware and deal with it since the mfg still fighting with the copy protection issues :mad:
over and out...:cool:

Aaron

Originally posted by PETERNG
2. You can follow your ears, I trust my heart, beside our hearts control ears, eyes....plus it has feelings, without it, you dead..::D

Dude, if your heart controls your ears and eyes, then you've got bigger issues than a photocopied PSW1200 manual! Last time I checked the human brain controlled all such functions, and without IT you're dead.

3. Just want to point out a hole in current technology, beware and deal with it is better since the mfg still fighting with the copy protection issues :mad:
over and out...:cool:

Say what? You need to work on that English there, bubba. If you're referring to DVD-A watermarking, then yes. That's why we should say screw DVD-A and buy SACD!

Aaron

PETERNG

Okie, we don't have to play words(can't take joke) with this issue, another personal taste, listen to it, did not like it , change....
If you're talking about multi channnels sound, both DVD-a and SACD have the same issue, they will not output the multi-channels via digital outputs but via analog outputs and most receivers do not have the bass management for the 5.1 analog inputs.
Sorry for the typo...

Larry Chanin

Originally posted by Integra
In my opinion, why have a full-range speaker with good bass response like the RT 1000 or RT 2000 set to small when it is capable of bass response down to 20-25Hz? Seems like a waste of a good speaker to me!

Hi Integra:

I've also read technical advice about setting everything, including the mains, to small and letting the subwoofer handle the deep bass duties. However, the experts always assume what they think is obvious, that the sub has a bass response that is better than the mains.

I don't have the specs on the PSW 140, but I assume it is not as good as the PSW 250 which is posted on the Polk web site. The specs show that the PSW 250's lower 3dB point is 40 Hz, while your RT 1000s lower 3dB point is 36 Hz. Therefore, since your mains are undoubtedly better than your sub, until you upgrade to a better sub, as you point out it would be wasting the bass response of your mains.

I've just started to go through the same thought processes as you are going through. My mains are Polk SDA-1Cs, and I have an old M&K subwoofer. With the help from the folks at Mike's Polk SDA Club I found out that the bass response of my mains were about the same as my subwoofer. (In other words both are woofers, not SUBwoofers.)

So I went out and purchased a Carver subwoofer that goes down to 18 Hz. In my home theater arrangement I have a processor that is used to create a back center channel from Surround EX programming. As a convenience the manufacturer added a surround Sub Out connection. This connection permits adding a subwoofer dedicated to the surround channels using line level connections similar to the intent of Peter's suggestion using speaker level connections. So I moved my old subwoofer to the rear of the room and set the surrounds to Large in order to get full range bass to the rear subwoofer.

In deference to my wife I haven't really done much serious listening at realistic listening levels yet. So its too early to tell much other than the fact that my receiver at half power now generates peak sounds of 100 dB as measured by my sound pressure level meter.:rolleyes:

Obviously, as was previously stated, there are Pros and Cons, both technical and practical, associated with playing full-range signals from multiple channels and locations within any home theater room. In experimenting with my arrangement one thing that I hope to achieve is more realism in panning bass front to back in my home theater. In other words, to a certain extent I want to be able to localize the bass to follow what the director designed into his/her movie. As we all know truly deep base is omni-directional and can't be localized, and if the all bass content were only in the sub 20 Hz range then we wouldn't need any full range speakers at all, one or more LFE subwoofers would do the trick. But we also know that in today's action movies there's plenty of bass in all frequency ranges going to all channels, including the surround channels.

Therefore, reusing a second subwoofer that is really a woofer should make an excellent candidate for a dedicated surround "subwoofer", because it will be able to give us those directional cues to better hear that 747 flying from the back to the front of our theater.

Of course when I am in need of some real serious deep bass I don't rely entirely on subwoofers. I use tactile transducers powered by a 2000 watt amplifier and attached directly to my seating. They go down to 5 Hz, and while the sound can't be localized, I can tell you that the rumbles are localized right in the seat of my pants!:eek:

Larry

George Grand

What the hell did we do to deserve this moron? I can't take it anymore. The crying, the whining, the STUPID friggin' answers. He takes a pretty good hint too.

George Grand (of the Jersey Grand's)

TrappedUnder Ice

One just flew over the Koo-Koo's nest.....:eek:

Larry Chanin

Club "Humor"

Being new to the club perhaps I just don't appreciate the subtleties of "Club Humor", but it seems that we diminish the value of the club when we engage in personal attacks, instead of arguing the technical merits of a position.

Thanks.

Larry

Integra

WOW! Thanks for all your input guys!

George Grand

Nobodys saying anything regarding your lengthy, and knowledgeable post. It just fell in below yours.

I've just had it with audio advice that includes the sun, moon and stars, happiness, options, and all kinds of bull.

George Grand (of the Jersey Grand's)

Micah Cohen

George, mellow out man.

You're scaring us.

If the right answer is elluding us, please provide it.

A little toleration, man.

MC

George Grand

Answer? What could possibly be the answer to constant crying, whining, and fairly nonsensical answers? Confucius would need a codebreaker with him the last few weeks. I don't think it's just me man.

George Grand (of the Jersey Grand's)

RuSsMaN

I'm lucky I still have a monitor for my pc, all the walkin' round my house I've been doing with my baseball bat.

Cheers,
Russ

Aaron

...."Man who can't write English, shouldn't post on forum."

Aaron (the teacher)

George Grand

I love you two guys.

George Grand (of the Jersey Grand's)

Larry Chanin

Originally posted by George Grand
Nobodys saying anything regarding your lengthy, and knowledgeable post. It just fell in below yours.

George:

No, I wasn't reacting to an insult that I thought you directed at me specifically.

Look, I don't want to drag this out, but you and the other veteran members of this club undoubtedly know a lot more about audio, and in particular Polk speakers, than most of the other members, including myself. So why don't guys use that experience to teach us, or to correct us when we provide incorrect technical information, instead of taking cheap shots.

Thanks.

Larry

schumach

How do you have the front speakers attached to the receiver? I have found that if I set my RT1000's to large and hook up the subs to the L/R line level outputs on the receiver I get a better range and smoother sound. This was also recommended to me by Polk support.

TrappedUnder Ice

My RT1000i's are set to large and bi-wired... very smooth transition indeed:cool: