Setting Speaker to Small/Large

gregure

This has been a subject of great consternation for me lately. At work, pretty much all of my co-workers feel that you should always set every channel to large no matter what, and cross the sub over at very low Hz level. This is a line of thinking also proposed by a rep from Sumiko who came to present the new Vienna Acoustics line and the new Domus series from Sonus Faber.
Mark me if I'm wrong, maybe I've been on the forum too long, or read too many receiver manuals, but my understanding is this:
If you set a tower speaker to large, you are maximizing its performance, but losing any low bass in those channels due to the signal not being crossed over to the sub.
Also, if you set a small surround speaker to large, if its solid frequency response is to, say, 60 Hz, then you literally lose the low bass for thos channels, as the signal is not sent to the sub. Am I correct, or do the lows still go to the sub due to the crossover setting? I was under the impression that large is full-range, and will not send bass to the sub for that channel.
They're argument is that you should never limit what a speaker can do by restricting the signal, nor should you cross over the sub at anywhere near 80Hz, or you will create an unwanted bass bump at that level.
Now, I am all for setting towers to large, even though I still think setting them to small frees up some midrange clarity and I get more bass from the sub, which with an SVS is a good thing. I believe my co-workers feel bass should be "subtle;" a school of thought to which I do not belong.
I'd like to hear thoughts on this, as I am, according to my co-workers and the reps at Sumiko, "dead wrong," despite the fact that I think their argument is ludicrous. Is THX totally off the mark? I don't think so. Unfortunately, I now have to go against my better judgement, and advise my customers to always set their speakers to large, with the exception of smaller sat/sub systems.

PolkThug

I gained midrange clarity on my RTi8's by setting them to small and letting the PB10's do all the bass duty.

Your friends are nucking futs.

PolkThug

Originally posted by gregure
I now have to go against my better judgement, and advise my customers to always set their speakers to large, with the exception of smaller sat/sub systems.

Be a leader, not a follower. I am sending your spine back to you via overnight priority shipping!

Your friend,
PolkThug

Nelson57

I tried both settings, and found I enjoy the sound of my HT much more with all speakers set to small.

I like my bass powerful and deep and the THX recommendation works for me.

gregure

As I said, I agree with you guys, thus the frustration at work.
And thanks, I actually still have my spine, as I vehemently argue my point at work and refuse to concede.
However, when your manager says to do something, as do the vendors for your products, sometimes it's easier to know you're right, but tell people what you have to not to cause problems.
After all, do you really think people will be unhappy if they set Martin Logans, Vienna Acoustics, or Sonus Fabers to large? And people will read manuals and do what is best for their system. If I don't bring it up at all, perhaps they'll do what the manual says and they'll get the system calibration they deserve.

polkatese

a quick derail if I may, have you seen the Domus then?

I am intrigue by the similarity of GP Domus with Cremona, I wonder if you have the opportunity to hear them side-by-side, since you are the insider? thanks...

Do you work at Magnolia HIFI? just curious...

Dennis Gardner

My large speakers have much more clarity when set to small, I would have to say it is due to headroom existing in the amp since the bass isn't zapping that channel's power, and maybe less cabinet resonance to fight ( bass pressure and backwaves). Less distortion when at high volume.

This is only true if you have a powered sub that is up to the task. If you are running a little lean in the sub area, the towers can help out some.

Tell your coworkers that they must not have enough sub to hear the difference!:D

aaharvel

front- small
center- small
surrounds- small
sub- on (hooked up via sub out cable) polk & your friends are crazy. jmo

edit- sweet B&K

gregure

Originally posted by polkatese
a quick derail if I may, have you seen the Domus then?

I am intrigue by the similarity of GP Domus with Cremona, I wonder if you have the opportunity to hear them side-by-side, since you are the insider? thanks...

Do you work at Magnolia HIFI? just curious...

Yes, I work at Magnolia Audio/Video.
Unfortunately, I have not yet seen the Domus. They will not ship until August.
When I hear them I'll post some thoughts.
We are finally getting the new Vienna Grand line, Mozarts arrived today, and they are awesome. Of course the Beethoven Concert Grand is superb, but I'm really looking forward to hearing the Baby Grand. Looks great, and same driver configuration as the RTi10, but a smaller cabinet and obviously finer wood.
I have not had the chance to hear the Cremonas, as we don't have a pair in my store. However, the new Grand Piano is indeed similar to a Cremona in driver aray and tweeter, however they've actually used some of the driver characteristics of the Stradaveri as well. They look amazing. The new Concerto is a full floor stander now, and is said to be the direct replacement of the old Grand Piano, the new one being an even better speaker.
Check them out at http://www.sumikoaudio.net/
As for backing me up, thanks guys. I don't think my coworkers are necessarily wrong, I just think that I'm not willing to lose bass in order to take full advantage of every last frequency from a tiny surround speaker that is meant to have a sub fill in the bass. Plus, we sort of have to configure the speakers as Sumiko wants, after all, they are the only distributor.

Willow

We may be right but we don't pay your salary. Couldn't you tell the client's this is what is recommended, however feel free to try setting them to small as well and see what you prefer.

polkatese

thanks, gregure. Do let us know when Domus arrived, I am anxious to check them out. Btw, glad that the earthquake last night was not causing any damage, it's pretty close to Santa Rosa, right?

Originally posted by gregure
Yes, I work at Magnolia Audio/Video.
Unfortunately, I have not yet seen the Domus. They will not ship until August.
When I hear them I'll post some thoughts.
We are finally getting the new Vienna Grand line, Mozarts arrived today, and they are awesome. Of course the Beethoven Concert Grand is superb, but I'm really looking forward to hearing the Baby Grand. Looks great, and same driver configuration as the RTi10, but a smaller cabinet and obviously finer wood.
I have not had the chance to hear the Cremonas, as we don't have a pair in my store. However, the new Grand Piano is indeed similar to a Cremona in driver aray and tweeter, however they've actually used some of the driver characteristics of the Stradaveri as well. They look amazing. The new Concerto is a full floor stander now, and is said to be the direct replacement of the old Grand Piano, the new one being an even better speaker.
Check them out at http://www.sumikoaudio.net/
As for backing me up, thanks guys. I don't think my coworkers are necessarily wrong, I just think that I'm not willing to lose bass in order to take full advantage of every last frequency from a tiny surround speaker that is meant to have a sub fill in the bass. Plus, we sort of have to configure the speakers as Sumiko wants, after all, they are the only distributor.

gregure

To tell you the truth, I was not aware of any earthquake. I didn't feel anything, and haven't really been following the news lately. No one talked about it at work either, so perhaps it was not so close to Santa Rosa as you think. We are 60 miles north of San Francisco on Hwy 101. Not sure where the earthquake happened, perhaps in the Central Valley?

polkatese

Here it is:

http://quake.wr.usgs.gov/recenteqs/Quakes/usziae.html

it is off the coast of norcal. Good then, if nothing is shakin' in your area.

chenj16

Originally posted by Dennis Gardner
My large speakers have much more clarity when set to small, I would have to say it is due to headroom existing in the amp since the bass isn't zapping that channel's power, and maybe less cabinet resonance to fight ( bass pressure and backwaves). Less distortion when at high volume.

This is only true if you have a powered sub that is up to the task. If you are running a little lean in the sub area, the towers can help out some.

Tell your coworkers that they must not have enough sub to hear the difference!:D

What if I don't have a subwoofer, with movie or music, should I set my front towers to large or small? I tried to search information in the case with no subwoofer but to no avail...

billbillw

Originally posted by chenj16
What if I don't have a subwoofer, with movie or music, should I set my front towers to large or small? I tried to search information in the case with no subwoofer but to no avail...

If you have no sub, you must set all speakers to large, otherwise you will have a steep frequency rolloff below 80hz (or whater the reciever x-over is).

chenj16

Originally posted by billbillw
If you have no sub, you must set all speakers to large, otherwise you will have a steep frequency rolloff below 80hz (or whater the reciever x-over is).

would it damage my speakers if playing movies like U-571 in loud volume?

Dennis Gardner

Originally posted by chenj16
would it damage my speakers if playing movies like U-571 in loud volume?

Yes!!!

There are spikes in those soundtracks that go as low as 10 hz that at volume could trash your mains. Just take it easy until you get outfitted for the big stuff.

gregure

If you are not overloading the speakers with massive wattage, you should be able to play at reasonable levels, even w/o a sub. The speakers will do what they can do, no more. However, REALLY loud may start to damage them. I played The Two Towers on just my Rti10's, pretty loud, and handled it fine. That was w/ my B&K, when I first moved in and hadn't gotten my sub or setup the surrounds.

chenj16

thanks for the info guys, so to play it safe, as long as I set front towers to small, I can play them much louder than if I set them as large right? because the low frequencies can't handled by the towers will not be sent from the receiver..

Dennis Gardner

Just don't overdrive any speaker, regardless of what setting you use.

What fronts speakers are you using chenj16?

gregure

NO, you absolutely want to set your towers to large if you have no sub, or you will be losing way too much bass. Plus, when you say NO in the sub category, the receiver automatically makes the mains large, in most cases. Even if you have Rti 8's, it will not damage them, even at loud volumes. The speakers will play to their limit and start to roll off. You will get below 30Hz, information out of the towers, but the volume will be so low, it's as if they didn't have a response lower than 30Hz. Plus, bass from the speaker outputs is not the same as bass from the LFE input. The .1 information is distributed to the bass in the L/R channels, but does not quite have the impact of the LFE signal. Furthermore, you will not have anything to worry about unless you start to hear clipping or distortion. That is the point when you need to TURN IT DOWN. But don't set your towers to Small. They will play what they can play and roll off. You can't blow a speaker by sending a full range signal at reasonable volumes. You just won't get the output of full range.

billbillw

Originally posted by Dennis Gardner
Yes!!!

There are spikes in those soundtracks that go as low as 10 hz that at volume could trash your mains. Just take it easy until you get outfitted for the big stuff.

Yes the soundtrack has 10hz sounds, but those are limited to the LFE channel. I'm pretty sure that the LFE channel does not get mixed into the main/surround speakers regardless of the large/small setting. Usually there is an option to route all the bass to the sub or not, but not the other way around.

I agree with gregure, he must set his mains to large if he wants to hear any decent bass. He is not going to damage his speakers. I've cranked my RT25i bookshelves running full range with movies many times and it handles them no problem.

VR3

Chances of you damaging your mains in any movie scene due to low bass is extremely low. Most ( I would think) speakers have a crossover point that makes the drivers start to stop at the tuning point of the enclosure. I imagine, this works just like a subwoofer, at the tuning point, the port starts to make noise and the drivers can go crazy...

So I would think any speaker would have a low bass filter, of course - they play that 10hz signal, just at -70db of the continuous signal...

Thats an assumption by the way, may be off - but we know what happens when you assume

Your friends are somewhat right, 80hz crossover is nasty and very localized. Its great for movies (THX requirements there as you mentioned) but really easy to tell wheres it at for music...

I run my mains on large, because I don't really have a choice as the only way to cross them over is for me to use RCA ICs, while I use XLR which are only set for large...sucks...but oh well... XLR is worth it

chenj16

Originally posted by Dennis Gardner
Just don't overdrive any speaker, regardless of what setting you use.

What fronts speakers are you using chenj16?

I'm currently running Athena AS-F2 as main, powered by HK AVR520...

thehaens@cox.net

Ditto....it looks like we all agree to placing the speakers to small and letting the sub do the work. I was a one time believer of placing the L/R channel to large...and during a passage in Master and Commander I shattered my R channel driver in the RT-16....:mad: but polk was happy that I had to replace the drivers:) never made that mistake again........

chenj16

Originally posted by gregure
NO, you absolutely want to set your towers to large if you have no sub, or you will be losing way too much bass. Plus, when you say NO in the sub category, the receiver automatically makes the mains large, in most cases. Even if you have Rti 8's, it will not damage them, even at loud volumes. The speakers will play to their limit and start to roll off. You will get below 30Hz, information out of the towers, but the volume will be so low, it's as if they didn't have a response lower than 30Hz. Plus, bass from the speaker outputs is not the same as bass from the LFE input. The .1 information is distributed to the bass in the L/R channels, but does not quite have the impact of the LFE signal. Furthermore, you will not have anything to worry about unless you start to hear clipping or distortion. That is the point when you need to TURN IT DOWN. But don't set your towers to Small. They will play what they can play and roll off. You can't blow a speaker by sending a full range signal at reasonable volumes. You just won't get the output of full range.

Yeah, I know clipping. And here we're talking about a different story, I have always wondered if frequencies out of the capability of a speaker will do any damages.. thanks for the clarification