receiver question

chunk

hi everyone. i was reading this thread (http://clubpolk.polkaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=28564) and it got me wondering about my receiver. i bought the sony str-de997 before i bought any speakers. i now have polk rti-10's and just bought a velodyne dls-5000r sub. i plan to add a csi5 front and some polk ceiling speakers for surrounds at a later date. the sony receiver is rated at 120 watts per channel and i listen to ~ 60/40 music/movies. is this sufficient to drive the speakers? thanks.

jcaut

Hi and welcome to the forum!

Are you having any problems, currently? Are you happy with the sound quality you're getting? How loud do you listen?

Your Sony might be sufficient, but you could do a lot better. Especially for music duty. The amps in Sony's receivers - at least the non-ES receivers-- aren't particularly well-regarded. The RTi10's will do a much better job if you can drive them with a high current amplifier.

You don't mention whether you plan to listen to 2-ch music or multi-channel, but adding a 2-ch power amp to the preamp outputs of your receiver might be an option for you to look into.

Jason

bigsexy1

If you have the 10s crossed over to the subs at 80 hertz and don't listen to real loud volume levels, the Sony will suffice, especially on movies.

However, for music listening, you could do WORLDS better. HK, NAD, and Marantz for starters.

chunk

thanks for replying.

98% of the music i listen to is 2-ch (xm radio) at a moderate to mod-high level. i like to play it loud enough to hear it through out the whole house and have heard a little destortion when i have cranked it really loud.

i guess i'll evaluate the receiver once i'm finished buying all my speakers. in addition of the surround system downstairs i'm thinking of running the second zone or b channel speakers upstairs to some bookshelf speakers. that should lessen the load on the recevier right?

aaharvel

The following is my opinion only: you shouldn't take Sony's claim of "120 watts" to heart.

Sony measures their wattage at a mere one channel at a time and usually at just 1khz. Measured the appropriate way (all channels driven simulatenously throughout the entire range of 20hz-20khz on a good test bench, my old sony strde935 advertised as 110x5 measured at 27x5- not to mention the sony's sound was metallic, bright, fatiguing- name your description. All due to Sony receivers (both non-es and ES alike) not having enough current in it's amp stages- this is why the receiver didn't meet it's advertised specs- and consequently why Sony receivers tend to sound o.k. with movies (non-critical listening) and just plain terrible with music (critical listening).

If you like the sound - then that's all that matters. If you dislike it-then i would buy from a manufactorer that states its wattage specs conservatively (aka- in an honest manner) and has good amounts of Current as well.

again, just my opinion.

gregure

First of all, a Sony receiver is simply sub-par in all respects. However, you could consider a 2-channel amp to drive your 10's. I would recommend a good 200 wpc amp, such as the B&K Reference 200.2 S2. A really nice amp, would give your 10's what they need to sing. I used to have an Onkyo 701, which I found to be good for movies but always made the 10's sound a bit thin for music, so I would have to supplement the sound by using Neo 6 to give me that more open sound. Now, w/ my B&K 507, the 10's sound superb for two-channel listening.
Again, however, I would stress the importance of getting that Sony out of the mix entirely asap, as even the preamp section is nothing to write home about.

AsSiMiLaTeD

where's my Goonies DVD???:D

chunk

thanks again for everyone's comments (even thought i don't think i get the goonies reference )

what do you guys think of the pioneer 1015tx?

aaharvel

i'm not big on pioneer, onkyo or yamaha either- they have problems with over inflated wattage specs and lack of current as well- but they would both be much better than a sony. This is my opinion guys- not necessarily fact.

if you want to look into some good brands in regard to receivers that rate their wattage conservatively and have oodles of Current- (I.E.- they perform with music admirably) then check out
denon, marantz, harman kardon - in no particular order.

www.jandr.com - i believe is STILL selling the $500 harmon 235 for $350 including shipping. That's an amazing value if you ask me. Finally- you can also go used and buy a nice NAD, Rotel, or B&K receiver off of ebay or audiogon or wherever. The popular opinion around here is that NAD receivers are wonderful.

again- if you like your Sony then don't listen to what we say- it is afterall just our opinions. good luck regardless.

chunk

oiy, i'm starting to get confused. the harmon 235 is rated at 50 watts per channel x 7 channels / 65 watts per channel stereo. how would this provide more power than a sony rated at 120 watts per channel x 7 channels?

thanks.

aaharvel

because the watts from Harman are real- throughout the entire broadband with all channels driven.

sony's 120 watts is to put it mildly- ****.
I compared my "110x5" sony to the 50 watt Harman Kardon. They're was absolutely no comparison.

It's alot more than just "how much watts is something".
It's also about how those watts are measured- and how much Current is in the amp to appropriately drive those Watts.

Believe me when I tell you a Harman 235 wil destroy any Sony str "DE" receiver.

Spawndn72

Remember the old "Joe Isuzu" commercials.

It will do 300mph.
**whisper** down hill in a hurricane.

The Sony will put out 120w for about a milisecond if all the conditions are perfect and the seventh moon of Saturn is in alignment with polar north.

The HK will put out it's 65w(or whatever it is rated at) no matter what and it will do it continuously.

aaharvel

Lol @ Spawn.

truer words were never spoken.

cfrizz

Your Sony does not have preouts so you can't add a separate amp to it to supply power to your speakers.

So you will have to upgrade your receiver if you want more power for your speakers.

danger boy

you also have to take into consideration it's amp rating. you need to find an amp that can handle a high amp load. that's sometimes more important than WPC.

Willow

Originally posted by Spawndn72


The Sony will put out 120w for about a milisecond if all the conditions are perfect and the seventh moon of Saturn is in alignment with polar north.

. [/B]

Wasn't that last night ? :cool:

gregure

As far as the Goonies reference, "Chunk" is the name of the fat kid in the movie.
Furthermore, there is no question that a HK or Onkyo receiver would be better than your current receiver, however spending $300-500 simply won't get you what you want. The specs on the 10's state it can take up to 300 watts, and the HK's will only power it up to 75 (w/ the over $1000 635). Those are high current watts, but still not close to driving the 10's to their potential. Honestly, if you cheap out on a receiver for the surrounds, get ones w/ preouts so you can get a nice amp for the 10's. Otherwise, you'll only be making baby steps toward your goal of better music playback.

aaharvel

that's an interesting point gregure.

but it's also proven that most music doesn't go higher than 40 to 50 watts continiously anyway- unless it's for short, brief spikes in the spectrum of audio playback.

but the differences between a h/k 235 and a h/k 635 would be minimal in driving rti-10's. Minimal. The current, is darm close between the two- and that's what matters the most imo. If you want a real step-up beyond that- then you should go for separates.

A harman 235 will drive rti12's beautifully, let alone rti-10's.

BrentMcGhee

I think you might be seeling sony short, actually really short. I do not know where you are getting your numbers about only delivering maybe 25watts of real watts on an advertised 120watt ss amp but that could no be more inaccurate. Now granted there are plenty of amps out there that do market like that (measuring one channel driven at only 1khz with 0.10%thd) and i would be pretty safe in assuming receivers like klh and technics would be a few of them. Especially those god awful boom boxes that they sell in all bb's and cc's now that there advertising goes something like 800watts of total system power with the mega super duper boom tube. Acckkk..... i hate those things and i feel really sorry for all of the ill informed consumers out there that have no idea what they are looking at when it comes to stuff like this. however, i kinda got off topic there. Even the lower end sony amps do not measure watts like this. Here is the specs on the lowest end sony receiver (str-de598) 90 watts x 6 into 8 ohms (20-20,000 Hz) at 0.09% THD. Now that is definatley nothing all that great, that is a pretty high percentage of distoration at those measurment but no where near what you were saying it was. Now as for the ES series of sony receviers that is a whole different story. I beleive the ES line to be a very respectible choice to run a very good home theater sytstem. ES series measures there amps with all channels driven 20hz-20khz with a thd of 0.05%. and measuring it that way my sony es receiver is delivering a nice clean 110watts to each channel. Now any outboard amp would do better becasue of the isolation of all the unescary circuits, but to say that sony receivers are junk i certainly do not belive in that.

Spawndn72

Sony AV Receiver STR-DE698/B

Channel Power Rating: 90 Watts Per Channel x 7 (8 ohms 20 Hz-20kHz, THD 0.09%)

Power Consumption: In use: 220 Watts; Standby: 0.2 Watts



H/k AV Reciever AVR 635

Seven-Channel Surround Modes, Power per Individual Channel :
Front L & R Channels : 75 Watts per channel @ <0.07% THD, 20Hz – 20kHz into 8 ohms
Center Channel : 75 Watts @ <0.07% THD, 20Hz – 20kHz into 8 ohms
Surround Channels (L & R Side, L & R Back) : 75 Watts per channel @ <0.07% THD, 20Hz – 20kHz into 8 ohms

Power Consumption : 59W at Power On, idle; 1000W at rated power output (7 channels driven)


Look at the power consumption. How can the Sony put out 90wx7 channels when it is only pulling in 220w from the wall?

The H/K says it only puts out 75wpc and it is pulling 1000w from the wall.

Even if the Sony was 100% effecient(which it is not) the most it could continuously put out would be 31.43wpc/all channels driven

Mjr7531

Originally posted by BrentMcGhee
(str-de598) 90 watts x 6 into 8 ohms (20-20,000 Hz) at 0.09% THD.

The government some time ago made a law for amps so they could al be measured equally. However that was in the time of stereo, and they never bothered to update it, so those are the Stereo specs you're looking at. If you look in the manual, it tells you that they are driven at 1 kHz etc. (in small fine print)

2+2

Joe Isuzu was the best.....sooo funny....:)

MacLeod

Sid and I were talking about this over on the car audio side and it got me curious as to how all the Sony, Onkyo and Denon receivers consumed less power than its supposedly putting out, so I emailed Denon and asked if they were underrating the concumption numbers or what. I didnt expect and answer but got one the next day from their tech dept. This was the reply:

Dear Aaron,

The rating printed and stamped should be accurate. However, overall power consumption versus total watts delivered does not have a direct correlation.

Things to consider are that the rail voltages for the amps are less than the power voltage coming in and that the power rating is not at all channels driven as your comparison was trying to imply. I hope this helps you out.

Best Regards,

J. McGuinness
Denon Electronics (USA), LLC

So apparantly everybody, even Denon, plays the numbers game with receivers. I think its **** how they get away with this. In car audio they try the same bull with head units by rating them at 50x4 when they put out no more than 12 RMS, but at least they rate that at PEAK so you know its never gonna happen.

steveinaz

Receivers are always going to be a "compromise" component. In audio, you get what you pay for (Bose being the exception)--no free rides unfortunately. Can receivers sound great? Sure, just don't expect rock concert levels to match the SQ of good seperates.

If you're hearing distortion it's time for a power upgrade before you tear up your tweeters with clipping.

aaharvel

i'm sorry- but there's nothing inaccurate about what i said about Sony receivers. I stand by my comments regarding sony, their de, db and even es lines. I had my cousin who works for a speciality audio company called G&H Stereo here in NC to test both my Sonydb935 and my new H/K 235.

The sony db935 (110x5) measured 27x5 with all channels driven simulatenously at 20hz- 20,000khz. The H/K (50x7) measured 59x7 with ALL channels driven simultaneously at 20hz- 20,000 khz.

Not only was Sonys wattage terrible- but the H/K even managed to beat it's own advertised spec and with 2 more amplifiers in it's chassis even! (that's what the industry means by "Conservatively rated")

Sony DE receivers measure only one channel at a time at only 1khz. The DB and ES series manage to go one step better by measuring the entire 20hz-20khz bandwidth but still at only 1 to 2 channels at a time. This is very misleading for the consumer. (hello, FTC!)

Do a google.

2+2

Out of the common consumer brands, I think only HK rates honestly right?

I believe Denon, Onkyo, Yamaha, Kenwood, Pioneer, Sony and even Marantz all play the number games with their AVRs ...some more so than others (I think I read that Marantz power their AVRs to be about 70% of their rated output with 5 channels)....correct me if my understanding is wrong...

shiu

Originally posted by 2+2
Out of the common consumer brands, I think only HK rates honestly right?

I believe Denon, Onkyo, Yamaha, Kenwood, Pioneer, Sony and even Marantz all play the number games with their AVRs ...some more so than others (I think I read that Marantz power their AVRs to be about 70% of their rated output with 5 channels)....correct me if my understanding is wrong...

So if you're right, a Marantz that does 100WX7, at 70% with 5 channels driven, you get 70WX5, that's still more poweful than the "honestly", or "conservatively" rated HK unit except for the AVR635 that is just one notch below their flag ship 7300.

shiu

Originally posted by aaharvel

A harman 235 will drive rti12's beautifully, let alone rti-10's.

I listened to the RTi10 driven by different HKAVR's (last year models) several times. IMO only the 630 and above can do the RTi10 justice. I don't know why but even the 430 could not make the RTi10 sound right.

BrentMcGhee

yeah well who cares anyway, we should all be using seperates anyway.:)

Yeah right in a perfect world, where everyone has all the money in the world.

chunk

wow. i can't tell you how much i have learned from this thread. thanks to everyone.

i think it'll take a little while for everything to sink in. i do know that i'll evenutally upgrade my receiver, but that prob won't be for 6 months or more. maybe it'll include an external amp to drive the rti-10's. right now movies sound great and music sounds good as long as i don't crank the volume.

can anyone recommend any threads about external amps? thanks again.

2+2

Originally posted by shiu
So if you're right, a Marantz that does 100WX7, at 70% with 5 channels driven, you get 70WX5, that's still more poweful than the "honestly", or "conservatively" rated HK unit except for the AVR635 that is just one notch below their flag ship 7300.

Not exactly as HK rates with all channels driven...i.e. 7 channels...not 5 like Marantz. I speculate that Marantz would be less than 70 with 7 channels driven. I have a Marantz 8400 on the way and am eager to hear what the "Marantz sound" is like....