Pushing products that suck...

francis1967

Noticed a thread in the Fleamarket and I can't help but have to comment on the issue at hand since I am losing sleep over this.

I am probably gonna get a lot of heat for this as it seems there are a lot of Polkies that have invested into Cobalt Cable products (all to their own...), but what about Cobalt Cable is so great??????

Their products are no better than middle tier Monster (which is already bad enough and way overpriced..) and their prices are a complete f**** rip-off!!
Exhibit A: banana plugs generic banana plugs lowest quality...$6.95 a pair ???!!!!

Exhibit B. Powercord The affore-mentioned powercord, or should I say Ultimate Powercord....Oh My God....$99.99 for 3 feet of s*** that doesn't even look good, much less perform up to par. Who cares about TAXDAY rebates when your 10 yr old powercord in the back of your garage is better than this and gives you enough money left over to go out and buy a pair of Polk Speakers. Priority, people!


My remarks aren't unfounded - I have bought, tested and RETURNED several of their products because it is my business to do so when consulting for companies in the same market niche - but I am dumbfounded to ya'lls positive push for these items.

With all the great knowledge and experience that this Polk Body has, it is my humble opinion that we can do much much better. Come on, Home Depot and Lowes is better than this when it comes to price/value/performance.

Again, I mean no disrespect to those of you that bought from Cobalt, but someone has to tell you that Cobalt Cable is taking you for a ride and costing you a small fortune.

What would be interesting is to read is if any of you have had unequaled success with some inexpensive vendors of cable and plugs?

Btw. did someone here get the Polk HT set on Ebay the other day...some RT2000i with CS400i and FX300i for around $500??

VR3

Although I didnt think much of the products I saw on their site...

If people like the products, and they think they are good - so be it. Who cares?

PS - Heres you a flame-suit

francis1967

This isn't a flame of anyone here buying the products. Let me "rephrase" this:

I am seriously much more concerned with those of you "older" polkies that are happily concurring with light sales pitches and promoting these products without the sense of responsibility to safeguard the less experienced.

Would you give your kid a 2 inch stick to hold when roasting marshmellows in front of the bondfire? Surely that is going to get their small fingers burned.

This is my point. Not flaming anyone.

VR3

I understand your point...

But for instance, Toxis owns the products and he enjoys the product...

If someone didnt like Polk speakers, but Polks were on sale for 40% off... and that person got mad at everyone supporting Polk, would you not think that guy is nuts??

Cables, like everything else are subjective (if not more)... you may not like them. Fine... but that dosnt make them a bad product...

(PS: I've never heard them, or seen them...Just speaking in general)

francis1967

I hear you. Your views are fair enough.

Early B.

Francis --

Sid summed it up nicely, so I won't elaborate on what he said.

Another thing to consider is the kind of cables people are upgrading from. If members are going from Home Depot cable or the lower tier Monster cable or any other entry level cable, they may experience a noticeable improvement with Cobalt Cable. What's wrong with that?

Also, you mentioned that Cobalt Cable may not be any better than middle tier Monster. I'm sure 40% off is cheaper than Monster any day of the week, so if people can catch a great deal on some decent cable, what's wrong with that?

Just curious -- what kind of cables do you use?

TroyD

I for one don't own nor have I seen a Cobalt cable....however a rule of the forum is "Thou shalt not bash other products"

If you don't like them, fine. If you don't think that they perform, fine. However that doesn't make you the end-all, be-all source of information, either.

As a senior Polkie, I pass on my likes and dislikes for informational purposes only. I don't tell folk that they should definitively buy or not buy a product.

Your post is way out of line.


BDT

madmax

Francis,
I was just wondering how you know they are so inferior? I know nothing about them and are not infering you are wrong in any way.

madmax

Edit: Sorry, you said you tried and returned. Didn't catch that the first time.

F1nut

I don't see the problem here. He tried the products, thinks they are not worth the money and is passing that info on to the rest of us. I say good for him.

Airplay355

Aw man you mean we can't burn him at the stake? Can we atleast check to see if he floats?

McLoki

Originally posted by francis1967
What would be interesting is to read is if any of you have had unequaled success with some inexpensive vendors of cable and plugs?

I have used a number of Blue Jeans Cables in my HT. While I will be the first to admit they are not the be-all, end-all cable - they work very well for me. They ship quickly, answer questions if you have them, and build exactly what they say they will.

I would rate them as a very solid quality DIY cable that someone else builds for you at a resonable mark-up.

I have and will do business with them again. (I am currently thinking of purchasing their 10ga. speaker wire. to make some jumpers for my LSi's and replace my 16ga speaker wire running to my front 3 speakers.)

For what they cost and what you get - two big thumbs up.

Michael

francis1967

Now Blue Jean cable is a good cable for the price/value you receive. They will tell you what is inside and they will price it right as per current market situation.

Take their component cable. It is the Belden Brilliance 7710 snake, which basically is slightly better shielding for three strands of the 1694A digital coax by same company. Excellent coax with hardly any signal loss in the first mile (yes..1600yards..) and a bandwidth of 3Ghz (enough to last us half a lifetime..most high end receivers offer 150Mhz currently with 100Mhz being the norm.

It can be bought for $1.80 per foot if you want to DIY and the Canare 75Ohms you can buy that fit it, will cost you around $2.80 or thereabouts. A 3 foot cable a total of About $25 and you would need the know-how, the time and the tools to make it.

When Blue Jean sells you this cable for $40-$45 it is GOOD VALUE...actually it is great value. To respond to the statement that for those of us that have Home Depot and want to experience more, A Monster at 40% discount or a Cobalt at 40% discount is just a bad deal, no way around it.

I have no affiliation with Blue Jean...I think it was great that McLoki brought up a company that are out here to make our HT better while not burning through our pockets.

Better Cables equally so.
Zero: Cobalt doesn't have good looks cable....if you want good looks, get the River Cables. Now they do great work on their cables and the inside stuff is again Canare and Belden. Both solid companies with excellent products and many DIY have gone "semi-pro" or pro using their products to drum up some solid cabling.

Heck any upstart that provides you with a solid look at their product "insides" and charge about $20-$30 in labor for each cable is worth looking into, and check out the mainstream Belden/Canare products before being sold on "propriatory" technologies which usually are "we sent a Monster cable to China and asked them to copy 90% of it...".

If you want looks, take a look at Zu Cable usually selling their stuff on Ebay as promos. A Utah company that do some excellent R&D, try to get paid for it, but ends up selling at "promotional" levels on Ebay. In the end, I think these levels are good value while their retail pricelist is way overpriced. But...a very good speaker/signal/powercord cable selection at $50-$100.

How do I know? I get hired by companies in the marketplace to take apart their competition...literally...test the cables, analyse the materials and soldering/no-soldering techniques, evaluate the sound, the deteriation/noise impact/leakage, terminations, progress found in newer versions vs older versions.

Here is a cable that normally gives everyone a stiffy, but just plain out does not deliver: The Monster M2.2 and M2.4. At $60 a foot, this is probably the worst deal around. Now, do I think Monster sucks? No, they have excellent powercondititioner and S-VHS cables and their higher end coax is pretty darn good, but still too much money being paid for the name. Their pwer amps are probably one of the better kept secrets around. They deliver pretty darn good no-thrills amplification and have "cool looks" if you are into LEDs and other highlights.

Then again, I remember I was wearing LaCoste t-shirts in the 70/80's...do any of you actually remember/were born when we all had to wear the little alligator (fabric didn't last through one wash, but the logo was a must-have!)? If they ever came out again with a retro of that t-shirt I would send you all a picture of mine after 2 times in the wash and recommend you not buy it at $150 a pop.

Another speaker cable company that has very poor price/performance is MIT. Sorry, the filters and the heave termination is just a killer when it comes to maintaining pure sound. Do I have my own set of MITs. Sure I do, and I haven't had the time to sell them yet after I found that they didn't deliver.

You want great speaker cable, but 1000ft of CAT5e (no, you don't need to braid them and spend 200hrs as per Van Heus recipe...) but bundle 27/54/81 (your choice) together (leave all shielding on on each single strand just strip and combine all small wires together eventually) per channel and you will likely have the best speaker wire available up to $1500-$2000 easily. Oh yeah, it is going weigh in a about 15-18 lbs on each channel length, but it will take you a mere 2hrs to do and cost about $50 for a two channel setup.

So don't tell me about flaming. This forum, you guys flame so many things, so many people, even your own kind right here, so don't sit on your high horses and tell me about your no-flaming policies. This is one of the worse forums I have seen where you deliberately dagger personal opinion and make sure the person never gets back on his/her feet. Mostly, it is friendly, but some I sit back horrified reading your damaging words directed to individuals here.

Having said that, there is also much good here and I enjoy much of the expertise found among you more serious enthusiasts.

So, please....my post here is child's play compared to much of the stuff around this place and merely meant to help those polkies that have worked hard, saved long and expect much from their money and newly invested cables. How about if we give them a chance to get it right the first or second time?!

PolkThug

Originally posted by francis1967
How do I know? I get hired by companies in the marketplace to take apart their competition...literally...test the cables, analyse the materials and soldering/no-soldering techniques, evaluate the sound, the deteriation/noise impact/leakage, terminations, progress found in newer versions vs older versions.

Do you take any objective measurements? I am very curious to your results/data.

http://clubpolk.polkaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=27287

Early B.

How do I know? I get hired by companies in the marketplace to take apart their competition...literally...test the cables, analyse the materials and soldering/no-soldering techniques, evaluate the sound, the deteriation/noise impact/leakage, terminations, progress found in newer versions vs older versions.

Not trying to start anything, but this statement intrigued me. I wasn't aware there was anyone doing this. Can you elaborate?

Who hires you?
Who do you work for?
What is your technical background?
How did you get into this business?
How do you evaluate cables against one another?
How much of your evaluation is subjective?
What criteria do you use to determine whether one cable is better than another one?
Do you conduct double blind listening tests?
What cables have you tested?
Based on your evaluations, what are the best cables for the money?
What kind of cables do you personally use?

Thanks.

PT - you have the mind of a genius. We were typing at the same time.;)

dorokusai

I personally wouldn't buy the brand, but people here are typically cost conscious and 40% off means alot to most people.

What "older" Polkies are you referring to exactly?

I'm sorry that you are not having any fun, sometimes stuff just doesn't work out....oh well, move on.

I also echo Early's comments above. Since you are on the road to audio self discovery, perhaps you can validate yourself in the same thread to which you elevate yourself.

F1nut

Another speaker cable company that has very poor price/performance is MIT. Sorry, the filters and the heave termination is just a killer when it comes to maintaining pure sound. Do I have my own set of MITs. Sure I do, and I haven't had the time to sell them yet after I found that they didn't deliver.

Well, I use to like you.........lol.

FYI, there are no filters in MIT cables, period.

Just what are "heave" terminations?

Everyone I know, including me, that has tried the better MIT cables absolutely loves them. What MIT cables have you tried?

McLoki

Originally posted by francis1967
Now Blue Jean cable is a good cable for the price/value you receive. ..... Better Cables equally so.

While I will agree that this is what started Better Cables. (I have a set of their component video cables) I think thier recent offerings have increased dramatically in price. (Since I do not own them, I do not know if there was a similar increase in quality, but their old cables are good enough that I would guess there to be a minor increase in quality for the dramatic increase in price.)

I would say that they are past the "good value / diminishing returns" point for my dollar.

Just my opion of course.

Michael.

BTW - how long ago did you look at them??

beardog03

what MIT`s do you have ?

I agree..they suck send them to me..

I would be happy to take them off your hands , and dispose of properly...**rubs hands together menacinly***bwaahahahaa

If they are S1`s , I`ll even pay you for them..!!

Toxis

wow, I appologize. I didn't know the golden ear himself was telling me Cobalt wasn't a good cable. Where were you 2 months back when I bought mine? I guess I no longer have a quality cable. Back to monster I go. :rolleyes:

unc2701

Wow... this guy sounds worse than me when I get started on Sony f***ing ES... but even more verbose.

Seriously- I think just about everyone here realizes by now that most these cable companies are just soldering ends onto belden and canare cable. For 6 foot lengths, they can actually do it cheaper than we can- I've priced it out and once you add in shipping, it's cheaper with Signal Cable or 40% off Cobalt. They can for damn sure solder better than me, so I'm willing to pay. If they suck, I'll send 'em back and get something else, as I hope the rest of these guys would.

madmax

Originally posted by F1nut
Well, I use to like you.........lol.

Everyone I know, including me, that has tried the better MIT cables absolutely loves them. What MIT cables have you tried?

He said the sound isn't pure, not that people didn't like them. (although he seems to not like them).

F1, your system only sounds perfect because those MIT's are cutting out all of the bad sounds!

madmax

McLoki

I may get flamed for this, but here goes.......

What are you all getting so defensive over? Somebody on the internet that you have never met and has never heard your system says he doesn't like your cables? Heck, he didn't even say that - He just thinks you paid to much for them. Then again - he said I got a good deal so maybe that is affecting my judgement.

Seriously - who on this thread has not said to someone on the board upgrade this or get that or whatever. I will grant that he came across a little strong for someone who has never heard your system, but who of us can't at times.

If the goal of cables is to pass the signal along and have no other impact on your system - maybe he is right. x is great and y sucks for that application. Maybe he is not taking your situation like if you are trying to tweak other areas in your system. (one persons system is very laid back so they make purchases that brings out the highs and posts how much they love the addition for their system - someone else has some horn speakers driven by 80's solid state amps and tries the same cables and posts that they suck.)

Come on guys - you should be happy that at least he agrees that cables can affect the sound of your system. - Now you want him to agree with you in all things audio, be realistic...

Michael

F1nut

Originally posted by madmax
He said the sound isn't pure, not that people didn't like them.

You're right, I stand corrected.

your system only sounds perfect because those MIT's are cutting out all of the bad sounds!

Right again, just like your system.

Tour2ma

Originally posted by F1nut
Well, I use to like you.........lol.

WAAAAAAaaaaaaa

Could see that coming like about a mile away...

francis1967,
It's not the content of your posts, it's the attitude that pouring out of them. Your intended altruism carries a healthy dose of condescension. And when folks react to the latter, they miss the former...

DarqueKnight

I don't know if Cobalt really "sucks" or not, but audio is no different from any other product field. Some products suck and some are good to excellent.

Originally posted by francis1967
Noticed a thread in the Fleamarket and I can't help but have to comment on the issue at hand since I am losing sleep over this.

Your concern for the uninitiated is appreciated.......but it's really not that deep. A lot of people will be enticed to try Cobalt because of the sale prices. This may be some people's first venture into some better than entry level cables. I expect that they will move on to better products as their knowledge grows.

Originally posted by francis1967
I am probably gonna get a lot of heat for this as it seems there are a lot of Polkies that have invested into Cobalt Cable products (all to their own...), but what about Cobalt Cable is so great??????

I'd like to know that myself. I'm not in the market for any cables, but I did go to their website out of curiosity. I was turned off by the looks of the product. I'm kind of shallow when it comes to the looks of my audio gear. If I don't like the way a piece of gear looks, I won't buy it....no matter how good it sounds. I know that does not make sense in the case of speaker cables and interconnects, because they are usually out of sight. However, that's one of my little audio fetishes. A lot of people may not like Monster, but you'd have to admit that they are on to a good thing with the sexy good looks of their Z series speaker cables and interconnects with the shiny black nylon "snakeskin" jackets and heavy gold-plated terminations. Plus, I really like the way they sound.:)

Originally posted by francis1967
My remarks aren't unfounded - I have bought, tested and RETURNED several of their products because it is my business to do so when consulting for companies in the same market niche - but I am dumbfounded to ya'lls positive push for these items.

Hard data from scientific test and evaluation is always valuable. What would you recommend instead of the Cobalts and why?

Cables, like anything else in the audio chain, filter (add things to or subtract things from) the signal. Sometimes the effects of a cable are subtle or imperceptable. Sometimes the effects are glaringly obvious. Whatever the effects, the important thing is are you happy with what you hear.

madmax

Originally posted by francis1967
How do I know? I get hired by companies in the marketplace to take apart their competition...literally...test the cables, analyse the materials and soldering/no-soldering techniques, evaluate the sound, the deteriation/noise impact/leakage, terminations, progress found in newer versions vs older versions.

Did you actually "take apart" the cables "literally" then return them for cost? They let you do that? Did MIT let you do that as well? I've been dying to take apart the MIT's. Who is your source? Maybe we can come up with a source who would let me do a little "experimentation"?

madmax

deepinya

I must say that these

http://www.cobaltcable.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=CCOS&Product_Code=loose_banana&Product_Count=3&Category_Code=accessories


Look just like these

http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F011%5F003%5F001%5F006&product%5Fid=278%2D321


You cant tell me that one set will sound better than the other can you?

Toxis

I love how the banana connectors of all things is getting the most flack. Is this all the company does that makes you leary? Hey, if that's all it takes, I bet you'll never find a cable company that you will like. Good luck to all in finding that perfect cable.

I'm happy with my cobalt's and will be doing a review fairly soon between my Cobalt Ultimate Speaker Cables and the Mapleshade speaker wire.

francis1967

I had no idea this would get so much attention. If you check the timestamp, I literally wrote this probably more for myself to vent and it is that time of night when all your faculties are not always with you.

Two things, I am actually really reserved and introvert and a forum like this works great because none of you can see me here in my PJ's and frizzy hair.....I hope. I don't mean to come on strong as a know-it-all on signaltransport, I am not. I am more of a self-tought Tim the Tool Guy. I have put in a fair amount of hours after giving up my normal 8-5 day job due to an illness that I will have to live with (not looking for sympathy, I actually enjoy my life now more than I did my previous). I have bagged about four years of learning about signal transport and it is a humbling experience as I failed physics twice in college before three became a charm.

Secondly, I am bound by non-disclosure agreements and other contracts as to what I can hand out in this forum, besides my archives look more like they came out of the 1800 century. But...as I started this reply, I am surprised at the interest this got and I will do one thing: I will go through a lot of my material and try to put together a small fact sheet and post it here.

Btw. My social skills are hardly refined and I didn't mean to flame anyone here.

Btw2. No, I didn't return cut off pieces and and opened filters back to these manufacturers. I have had the pleasure though of being paid to go buy one company's cables on behalf of another competitor....massacre the cables...return the findings. Industry espionage, only all legit. Did I mention I love old spy movies?

I suspect many of you have dissected your own share of wire and tried a myriad of combos. Only I am sometimes fortunate to get paid rent money for playing doctor.

Anyway, a fact sheet will find its way here with a few technical findings as well as subjective feelings on the subject - my feelings. My best tools are my ears, my oscilloscope and my two Fluke multimeters. Remember, I have no huge professional sound lab and my finances require my speakers in my main system to be Polks. No offense, but I would love to have a pair of Martin Logan Statement E2's when I grow up one day. For now, the Polks do me just fine.

madmax

Originally posted by francis1967
I am more of a self-tought Tim the Tool Guy.

"Instructions?? The instructions are only the manufacturers opinion..."

Tim Taylor (While wiring his new stereo)

Early B.

Hmmm - let's see what we've got here:

-- self-taught
-- works from home
-- works alone
-- analyzes cables for money
-- low tech analysis
-- mainly subjective
-- gets paid to play music all day to test cables
-- uses Polk speakers
-- admittedly non-refined social skills (obviously not required for the job)
-- industrial espionage

So where can I fill out my application???

I'm really interested in reading this "fact sheet."