7.1 w/ akward array of spks

CA-AVR330

Hi.

I have an unweidly array of speakers here with a 7.1 capable reciever, but I am unsure of how best to arrange them in the room. More towards which speakers should go where rather then height/etc.

My hardware is :
Polk RTi10 (2)
Polk r50 (2)
Polk Atrium 45 (2)

and a harman kardon 330 reciever.

Any advice(s) give would be appreciated.
Normally my rti10's are fronts, r50 are rear and the atrium's sit in a box unused.

Dennis Gardner

Only around 200 movies are in 7.1 surround out of 9000 titles anyway, so it really doesn't matter.:D Run'em how they sound best to you.

CA-AVR330

I know, this is true.
But this is more of a case "I want to cause I can."
I have all the nessecarry equipment.

Dennis Gardner

It really depends on where you can mount the 45s. The 10s should be your mains since they will produce the best foundation.
The R models will work in any position. I found that I liked my sides above my head and it was okay to have the rears in the corner toed in to my seating. My sides are bipole/dipole models, so they aren't directly facing my ears.

CA-AVR330

with RTI10's, can I just somehow wire two sets of fronts together? Like run the r50's from the rti10's some how?


thought I saw someone do thast

Toxis

Technically, NOTHING is recorded in 7.1 seeing that isn't even a true format. It's really 6.1 with the rear center split to two monaural speakers. Welcome back Pro Logic processing...

CA-AVR330

Yes, I know.....sigh.

Dennis Gardner

Originally posted by CA-AVR330
with RTI10's, can I just somehow wire two sets of fronts together? Like run the r50's from the rti10's some how?


thought I saw someone do thast

Don't hook 2 sets of speakers together on any set of your AVR outputs. Your receiver isn't built to handle the load that an RTI10 and R50 would put on the receiver.

I don't really understand what concerns you have about mixing the speakers. They are all from the same brand and should match pretty well in a 7.1/5.1 setup. The tweeters af each model are a little different, but Polk doesn't drastically change its voicing from how it believes speakers should sound.

ohskigod

i wouldnt combine the RTi 10's and the R50's as mains. if you rnot happy with the RTi10's alone, combining them with the R50's, even if it was ok to do so, would not give you desired results. If your not happy with the RTi10's, some better amplification might be the order of the day. (i've never heard a Harmon Kaardon, so i'm not speaking from experience)

aaharvel

"Technically, NOTHING is recorded in 7.1 seeing that isn't even a true format. It's really 6.1 with the rear center split to two monaural speakers. Welcome back Pro Logic processing... "

actually- that isn't quite the case.

DTS NEO 6, DTS ES Discrete are full 6.1

However, Logic 7 (which he has on his H/k pre-amp)
and DOlby Prologic IIX actually re-create independent stereo images in EACH of the two rear surround channels- and since you can use it with any DTS soundtrack, Dolby 2.0 soundtrack and the like- technically you're getting matrixed 7.1 sound, but it's still 7.1

I asked this to THX myself when i asked them is THX ULTRA II and PROLOGIC IIX BOTH the same 7.1 format?

surprisingly, the THX guy was honest and said no- ULTRA is only 6.1 branched into 2 rear speakers, where Logic 7 and PROLOGIC IIX are actually stereo images in the rear speakers, thus the 7.1 effect.

REgardless, with prologic IIX he will be able to turn any stereo, 5.1 or 6.1 source, while using prologic IIX or logic7 into at least a decent 7.1 representation.

Toxis

I don't know who you were talking to because THX Ultra is not a surround sound format. It's a certification for rooms 2000ft^2 and larger. And PL IIx is only 6.1 according to Dolby Labs. The only format you can get stereo surround backs is in 7 channel stereo.

aaharvel

sorry- i meant that when THX said that THX Ultra II is based around EX/ES/PrologicIIx type encoding- whereas the first Ultra was based on 5.1. Ultra II i'm sure is designated for rooms 2000 and up, but i'm pretty sure its' also designed for "REAR" and SIDE" surround speakers in mind as well.

that's what I meant.

and regarding prologicIIx- yeah you might be right. Dolby EX is derived from 5.1 but matrixed in the back speaker(s). Whereas Prologic IIx actually has individual information back there?

wasn't it so much more simpler when we had 2channel stereo?

Larry Chanin

Originally posted by Toxis
I don't know who you were talking to because THX Ultra is not a surround sound format. It's a certification for rooms 2000ft^2 and larger. And PL IIx is only 6.1 according to Dolby Labs. The only format you can get stereo surround backs is in 7 channel stereo.

Hi,

In contrast to the earlier THX incarnations, THX Ultra2 is comprised of multiple certifications, i.e., speaker and subwoofer design, amplifier design and a certification for surround processing which is not limited to certain sized rooms. It claims to provide 7.1 processing, but that is arguable.

Here's a review of the first THX Ultra2 certified receiver.

Pioneer Elite VSX-49TX THX Ultra2 Receiver

Here's an excerpt describing the certification:

THX Ultra2 differs from its predecessor by mandating full 7.1-channel playback capabilities for Dolby Digital Surround EX and DTS-ES soundtracks, which add a back surround channel for one or two speakers centered behind the listening position. To be certified as THX Ultra2, a receiver has to provide not only decoding for 7.1 channels and processing to derive 6.1- or 7.1-channel playback from 5.1-channel sources, but also seven discrete amplifier channels as well as “boundary gain compensation” to help match a subwoofer’s output to the room acoustics regardless of its placement. And THX Ultra2 requires a receiver to have wideband component-video switching to handle signals from a progressive-scan DVD player or a high-definition TV (HDTV) tuner without picture degradation.

THX Ultra2 surround processing certification standard attempts to create different surround back channels by phase shifting a mono surround back signal so that the two channels sound different. So technically it can claim to have 7.1 derived channels, but the THX guy referred to in aaharvel's posting was being more honest when he admitted it was essentially 6.1 channels played over 7.1 speakers.

This is a far cry from Dolby Prologic IIx or LOGIC7 surround processing which derive true stereo surround back channels from the side surround information.

Larry

Larry Chanin

Originally posted by CA-AVR330
Hi.

I have an unweidly array of speakers here with a 7.1 capable reciever, but I am unsure of how best to arrange them in the room. More towards which speakers should go where rather then height/etc.

My hardware is :
Polk RTi10 (2)
Polk r50 (2)
Polk Atrium 45 (2)

and a harman kardon 330 reciever.

Any advice(s) give would be appreciated.
Normally my rti10's are fronts, r50 are rear and the atrium's sit in a box unused.

Hi,

I think you've received good advice on arranging your existing speakers, but of course perhaps one of your most important speakers in a 7.1 configuration is missing. Your center channel.

In addition, your receiver has provisions to power every speaker independently, so why would you not use the connections provided?

Finally, your receiver has LOGIC7 processing, one of the best "real" 7.1 surround processes. So you should benefit greatly with a proper placement of speakers. Your receiver's owner's manual does a good job of describing this. Make sure your seating is not up against the rear wall if you want to take advantage of 7.1 processing.

It is true that there is no source material greater than 6.1 discrete channels, and most available is 5.1. However, your receiver's LOGIC7 processing will take 5.1 or 6.1 discrete sources and derive 7.1 channels on playback so realistically you won't be able to tell that the derived surround back channels are not discrete.

Enjoy!

Larry

CA-AVR330

Thanks Larry and everyone

I appreciate the responses all of which have been helpful in one way or another. THANKS!

Can logi7 take anything and make a 7.1 sound?
In other words, what are the limitations of logic7, please?

Dennis Gardner

Logic 7 on your AVR will take only analog inputs and turn them into 7.1 if I recall correctly. This is primarily stereo 2 channel turned into a more realistic movie or music format. This really helps with stereo TV signals that aren't digital yet. Logic 7 was ahead of Dolby with a 7 channel version of the processing. Dolby now has Dolby Pro-Logic IIx that is now their extended version of their previous 5 channel analog processing. Alot of people prefer the Logic 7 to even the new Dolby format.

With digital inputs, the DD-EX or DTS-ES usually is better than that of the Logic 7, since it has surround effects put in by the master technician at the studios.

CA-AVR330

Yeah, interesting.
I tried Logic7 over these many years with my avr110 and stepped up to this 330.

Logic 7 is quite preferable to all the available sound modes in analog. Dolby is kinda overshot here.

But if I switch to DD-EX when a movie is playing that supports it, ie star wars, the reciever seems to support splitting the rear most surrounds into 7.1. Strange, no?

Larry Chanin

Originally posted by CA-AVR330
Thanks Larry and everyone

I appreciate the responses all of which have been helpful in one way or another. THANKS!

Can logi7 take anything and make a 7.1 sound?
In other words, what are the limitations of logic7, please?

Hi,

Harmon International makes a number of versions of LOGIC7. My Lexicon digital controller is the "big brother" of your receiver and it will convert two channels to 7-channels.

However, many Harman Kardon receivers have a version of LOGIC7 that will only convert 5.1 or 6.1 to 7.1. Perhaps your manual will elaborate on this point.

From a practical point of view it shouldn't matter since most movies today are at least 5.1.

Larry

Larry Chanin

Originally posted by CA-AVR330

But if I switch to DD-EX when a movie is playing that supports it, ie star wars, the reciever seems to support splitting the rear most surrounds into 7.1. Strange, no?

Hi,

No, not strange. That is what it is designed to do, create true stereo surround back channels. It will do the same with plain 5.1 as well.

As Dennis pointed out it's been doing that in high-end gear for many, many years before Dolby Prologic II came out. It's because they have so much more experience in this kind of surround processing, many folks still prefer LOGIC7 to the newly released Prologic II and IIx.

Larry

aaharvel

hi ya again!

Honestly, I prefer Prologic IIX over LOGIC-7. I didn't think I would coming right out of the box - but prologic IIX takes the edginess off of the treble for analog sources- kinda like re-eq but not.

Logic-7 has a sharper more edgy sound to it- and i like the warmer smoother sound- that's why in essence i got a H/K receiver.

And they're right- LOGIC-7 only works with 2.0 analog- you can't piggyback it on digital sources like DTS or D.D 5.1

However, with Prologic IIx you can- in fact- DOLBY themselves recommend this. They say if a movie is encoded even in Dolby 5.1 EX and you have the speaker array- having your receiver decode the signal in prologic IIX is superior than the original dolby ex monikor.

Also, with Prologic IIX - you can piggy back it on ANY (I swear) DTS source- whether it's DTS 5.1, DTS ES 5.1 Matrix, or DTS 6.1 Discrete ---- and Prologic IIX will convert it to 7.1.

It's up to you- but I find that Prologic IIx has absolutely no equal with digital sources- and even with analog beats logic-7 for it's analog-like sound and much more superior than the horrendous DTS Neo:6-

hope this helps!

Larry Chanin

Originally posted by aaharvel
hi ya again!

Honestly, I prefer Prologic IIX over LOGIC-7. I didn't think I would coming right out of the box - but prologic IIX takes the edginess off of the treble for analog sources- kinda like re-eq but not.

Logic-7 has a sharper more edgy sound to it- and i like the warmer smoother sound- that's why in essence i got a H/K receiver.

And they're right- LOGIC-7 only works with 2.0 analog- you can't piggyback it on digital sources like DTS or D.D 5.1

However, with Prologic IIx you can- in fact- DOLBY themselves recommend this. They say if a movie is encoded even in Dolby 5.1 EX and you have the speaker array- having your receiver decode the signal in prologic IIX is superior than the original dolby ex monikor.

Also, with Prologic IIX - you can piggy back it on ANY (I swear) DTS source- whether it's DTS 5.1, DTS ES 5.1 Matrix, or DTS 6.1 Discrete ---- and Prologic IIX will convert it to 7.1.

It's up to you- but I find that Prologic IIx has absolutely no equal with digital sources- and even with analog beats logic-7 for it's analog-like sound and much more superior than the horrendous DTS Neo:6-

hope this helps!

Hi aaharvel,

Thanks, I'm afraid I got it backwards when I suggested that the HK AVR330 could decode 5.1 and 6.1 to 7.1. It actually applies to two channel decoding to 7.1.

However, as I said the version of LOGIC7 in my Lexicon processor can decode 2channel all the way up to 6.1 channel to 7.1.

Like everything else, surround processing is a personal preference issue. He's a review of the AVR330 in which the reviewer prefers LOGIC7 decoding of two channel over Dolby Prologic II.

In addition to the now-common Dolby Pro Logic II (DPL II) and DTS Neo:6 processing for enhanced 5.1/6.1-channel playback
of two-channel sources like CDs and Dolby Surround-encoded TV broadcasts and older movies, the AVR 330 also incorporates
Harman Kardon’s proprietary Logic 7 mode for the same purpose. Harman claims that Logic 7 is a quicker-steering and more enveloping process than DPL II, and I’m inclined to agree, at least with some kinds of program material. I often heard a more spacious, coherent surround bubble on TV broadcasts, such as Monday Night Football. In at least one case — the title music to The West Wing, which inherently sounds a bit “pumpy” due to recorded compression — Logic 7’s presentation was dynamically a tiny shade smoother than DPL II’s. A bit surprisingly, the AVR 330 doesn’t offer access to any of DPL II’s adjustable parameters, such as Center Width or Panorama.

As you pointed out for decoding 5.1 and 6.1 to 7.1 it appears that Prologic II is the only option for this particular receiver. So in that case it would be strange for CA-AVR330 to be hearing 7.1 with LOGIC 7 on DD-EX sources.

Larry

aaharvel

i wholeheartedly agree.

logic-7 is better than "prologic II"-

i was talking about "prologic IIx".

at least to my ear, The x-version significally improves the wraparound effect so much that it's scary- for both film and music-

aaharvel

"A bit surprisingly, the AVR 330 doesn’t offer access to any of DPL II’s adjustable parameters, such as Center Width or Panorama."

damn! i forgot all about this! lol.

The "35" monikor of the H/K receivers are a slight upgrade to the "30" monikor of the H/K receivers - essentially in order to take better of advantage of prologic IIx and 7.1 speaker setups vs. plain prologic II and 5/6.1 speaker setups.

my H/K avr235 DOES have the "dolby prologic IIx" parameters of center width and panorama and they're available for the "music" mode of prologic IIx- i've got the center width set at 4 from a scale of 0-7 and of course the panorama is always set to "on"

all i can say is Wow.

CA-AVR330

hehe

When I bought this 330,. 335 did not yet even exist!

aaharvel

According to the Dolby website- DOLBY EX is yesterdays technology. Although it is still being used in Cinema, Dolby themselves admit that it is nothing more than an a mono matrixing system.

Prologic IIx expands on Dolby EX by adding two rear speakers instead of 1- and giving it a stereo matrixed effect. Even though the StarWars DVDS are recorded in DOLBY EX-5.1, on their website Dolby highly recommends using "PROLOGIC IIx" and NOT DOLBY EX on your receiver.

Along with Dolby 5.1 AND analog 2.0 sources, you can even Piggyback "Prologic IIx" onto ANY DTS soundtrack- and the results are incredible.

Honestly this is the best decoder technology that I have EVER come across for home theater. Does anyone remember how bad your CD's sounded with the original "PRO-LOGIC" technology? lol

On my system at least- Logic-7 just isn't as well-thought out cuz it doesn't work with any source other than 2.0 analog- so I give the nod to Dolby's latest creation. It's totally universal and it totally kicks ****!

CA-AVR330

Perhaps someone can figure this out then : according to the H/K manual for avr330, "Even if specific EX encoding is not available to provide the additional channel, the special algorithims will derive a 6.1/7.1 output."

Thought I needed an THX Ultra 2 to get this ability?
or somthing.

aaharvel

"Even if specific EX encoding is not available to provide the additional channel, the special algorithims will derive a 6.1/7.1 output."

What the manual is referring to is If an EX soundtrack is not available, to provide the sixth and seventh channel info- you switch the receiver to Prologic IIx. When Prologic IIx is mixed with any 2 channel or 5.1 source- (be it Dolby Digital, DolbyEX, or DTS) it effectively turns into an 7.1 "matrix" playback.

But here's the real kicker- If you add Prologic IIx to a 6.1 "DTS-ES DISCRETE" source, then it moves it up into actual 7.1 "discrete" playback! Try the Gladiator DVD to see for yourself.

It does get confusing- now I know why many stick with good ol' 2-channel.

Larry Chanin

Originally posted by aaharvel
"Even if specific EX encoding is not available to provide the additional channel, the special algorithims will derive a 6.1/7.1 output."

What the manual is referring to is If an EX soundtrack is not available, to provide the sixth and seventh channel info- you switch the receiver to Prologic IIx. When Prologic IIx is mixed with any 2 channel or 5.1 source- (be it Dolby Digital, DolbyEX, or DTS) it effectively turns into an 7.1 "matrix" playback.

Hi,

In reading the AVR330 owner's manual it states that it only has Prologic II not Prologic IIx. So it shouldn't be decoding 5.1 or 6.1 sources to 7.1, just two channel sources. When the manual says it will "derive a 6.1/7.1 output" it means it will play 6.1 channels on 7.1 speakers. In other words it will play the same channel on both surround back channels.

Receivers that have IIx processing would derive a second, different surround back channel.

But here's the real kicker- If you add Prologic IIx to a 6.1 "DTS-ES DISCRETE" source, then it moves it up into actual 7.1 "discrete" playback! Try the Gladiator DVD to see for yourself.

It does get confusing- now I know why many stick with good ol' 2-channel.

Perhaps we're getting into semantics here, but Prologic IIx is still applying a matrix decode when the source is 6.1 "DTS-ES. By definition discrete means separately encoded source channels, and Matrixed means derived from discrete or other matrixed channels. Therefore, if a DTS-ES source only had 6.1 discrete channels to start with, no decoder can produce a 7th discrete channel on playback. It's still a matrixed 7th channel albeit a very convincing and distinctly different 7th channel.

Because Prologic IIx and LOGIC7 (the version in high-end processors) do such a good job of creating a distinct (not discrete) 7th channel, it is not necessary to have 7.1 discrete sources to enjoy a realistic presentation of 7.1 matrixed channels on playback.

Larry

CA-AVR330

Inspite of omiting PL-2x and so on, my reciever still allows me to select a 7.1 surround if virtually any given EX track is played.

The LED display will read out 7 speaker spots available.


How come?
My friend thinks its just an extra DSP matrixing it even though its not listed.

Larry Chanin

Originally posted by CA-AVR330
Inspite of omiting PL-2x and so on, my reciever still allows me to select a 7.1 surround if virtually any given EX track is played.

The LED display will read out 7 speaker spots available.


How come?
My friend thinks its just an extra DSP matrixing it even though its not listed.

Hi CA,

My theory is that your receiver will read out 7 whenever 7 speakers are playing, regardless if the two surround back speakers are playing the same signal.

Your friend may be right, but with today's marketing I find it unlikely that a manufacturer would add an unadvertised or undocumented surround effect.

As I mentioned some processors, such as those certified THX Ultra2, can add a simple phase shift to the surround back signal to create a different sound in the second surround back speaker, but they still "claim credit" for the process even if it is trivial.

Larry